DUST Search - A Rail Rifle Change I can't believe no one has considered.

Baal Omniscient wrote:

Shiruba Ryou wrote:

Why not just make the hipfire crosshairs really tight? With a tight hipfire you can no longer be in CQC to strafe-spray-and pray. It would force RR user to keep at a range far enough to be able to "effectively track your targets". That's the disadvantage rail weapons area supposed to have.

Got this idea while playing with my Breach AR. You know how that thing has a pretty tight hipfire spread? If I'm ******** close to someone, I can't track them well enough to land those reduced RoF shots. So I get close but not 'in my visor' close. Make the Rail Rilfe spread tight as hell so the really accurate rail weapon fires almost exactly where your pointing even in hipfire. Fixes the whole CQC problem which is in my opinion the only one it has. It's the reason good strafing close to a sniper looking at you once your within say 30m will keep him from hitting you long enough to get in closer and kill him.

Rail rifles keep their damage, RoF, charge time, everything they have right now so that their ability to be a mid-long range bully isn't nerved at all. The only thing that will change is their range of engagement ability.

Except that this just makes kb/m rail rifling that much better and makes people who can actually aim in CQC beastmode. The breach AR is still viable in CQC BECAUSE it has such tight hip fire. What made the TAR OP was it's crazy accuracy in hip fire despite being a long range weapon.

Tight hip fire would actually make it better than it is now for everyone except those who are already bad at aiming in CQC. The best recourse would be to make it kick and spray like mad when it isn't in ADS.

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Shiruba Ryou 146	Posted - 2014.01.24 20:05:00 - [1] - Quote Why not just make the hipfire crosshairs really tight? With a tight hipfire you can no longer be in CQC to strafe-spray-and pray. It would force RR user to keep at a range far enough to be able to "effectively track your targets". That's the disadvantage rail weapons area supposed to have. Got this idea while playing with my Breach AR. You know how that thing has a pretty tight hipfire spread? If I'm ******** close to someone, I can't track them well enough to land those reduced RoF shots. So I get close but not 'in my visor' close. Make the Rail Rilfe spread tight as hell so the really accurate rail weapon fires almost exactly where your pointing even in hipfire. Fixes the whole CQC problem which is in my opinion the only one it has. It's the reason good strafing close to a sniper looking at you once your within say 30m will keep him from hitting you long enough to get in closer and kill him. Rail rifles keep their damage, RoF, charge time, everything they have right now so that their ability to be a mid-long range bully isn't nerved at all. The only thing that will change is their range of engagement ability. "Not to worry. The cards say you loved it." `- Ryoutoshi`
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12565	Posted - 2014.01.24 20:09:00 - [2] - Quote hmm will bring this up thanks for the knock on the head these things get forgotten about easily. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Zekain K Expert Intervention Caldari State 1093	Posted - 2014.01.24 20:15:00 - [3] - Quote Everyone wants the hip fire to be wider because they think it'll make the gun worse in cqc But it is actually quite the opposite. *CALDARI not so MASTER RACE* Forum Warrior Level: 10
Shiruba Ryou 146	Posted - 2014.01.24 20:15:00 - [4] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: hmm will bring this up thanks for the knock on the head these things get forgotten about easily. Thanks for the post IWS. The guys on IRC I've been hanging out with said I should try posting some of the balance ideas I'd been having (while drinking). Decided to try it at least once. Happy to see it be received. "Not to worry. The cards say you loved it." `- Ryoutoshi`
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 5929	Posted - 2014.01.24 20:19:00 - [5] - Quote It's one of the most common nerf ideas. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Shiruba Ryou 149	Posted - 2014.01.24 20:21:00 - [6] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: It's one of the most common nerf ideas. I've only ever seen people ask to make it wider. Maybe I missed it. "Not to worry. The cards say you loved it." `- Ryoutoshi`
Yoma Carrim Situation Normal all fraked up 307	Posted - 2014.01.24 20:22:00 - [7] - Quote Shiruba Ryou wrote: Why not just make the hipfire crosshairs really tight? With a tight hipfire you can no longer be in CQC to strafe-spray-and pray. It would force RR user to keep at a range far enough to be able to "effectively track your targets". That's the disadvantage rail weapons area supposed to have. Got this idea while playing with my Breach AR. You know how that thing has a pretty tight hipfire spread? If I'm ******** close to someone, I can't track them well enough to land those reduced RoF shots. So I get close but not 'in my visor' close. Make the Rail Rilfe spread tight as hell so the really accurate rail weapon fires almost exactly where your pointing even in hipfire. Fixes the whole CQC problem which is in my opinion the only one it has. It's the reason good strafing close to a sniper looking at you once your within say 30m will keep him from hitting you long enough to get in closer and kill him. Rail rifles keep their damage, RoF, charge time, everything they have right now so that their ability to be a mid-long range bully isn't nerved at all. The only thing that will change is their range of engagement ability. So give it one of the Laser Rifle's problems in CQC (damage aside) +1 When you turn a corner and find the entire enemy team.Oh Heck Logi, Tanker, Heavy
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1474	Posted - 2014.01.24 20:25:00 - [8] - Quote Zekain K wrote: Everyone wants the hip fire to be wider because they think it'll make the gun worse in cqc But it is actually quite the opposite. This is 100% true. Everyone thought for the better part of a year that the HMG's poor performance was because it had bad accuracy. The problem was that it had perfect accuracy. CCP actually fixed it by making it inaccurate. So to nerf something in CQC, you just need to give it both kick and perfect accuracy. Excellent idea OP, +1. ED: By kick, I mean more kick outside of ADS than within it. I used to own the FAT GAT until this --> [ASCII Art removed - *draconian forum overlord* CCP Logibro]
Adelia Lafayette Science For Death 578	Posted - 2014.01.24 20:26:00 - [9] - Quote lets pre nerf the magsec with this too! +1 Assault dropship gets blown up.... (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ "Kitten this I'm out"... ..."I'm back"
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1627	Posted - 2014.01.24 20:27:00 - [10] - Quote +1 This is a good idea. It makes CQC with a RR require more tracking skill. This is what's the Laser Rifle is like, and that thing is not only innefective in close quarters, but hard to use as well. This should be coupled with a RoF reduction or a Damage per Round reduction to prevent it from being a long range hipfire god. Overall, doing those two things would reinforce its role as a long range rifle, and make it less effective at close range. Yours Truly, Reginald Fizzer94 Delafontaine III, Esquire

BrownEye1129 Death In Xcess Corporation 154	Posted - 2014.01.24 20:36:00 - [11] - Quote Doesn't sound bad. I was thinking a slight charge up increase. I heard people saying a full second but I think that's a bit much. I would like maybe .10 - .15 added to the charge time along with a slight RoF reduction. I think just giving it a tighter spread would make it even more of a beast at long range which it is already.
N1ck Comeau Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 1903	Posted - 2014.01.24 20:40:00 - [12] - Quote I still think bigger dispersion is better, if you got good with super good hipfire, you could snipe from the hip. Kinda like the snipers in Halo. Minmatar Assault. Hopeful Caldari Scout soon. praying for that respec.
Shiruba Ryou 151	Posted - 2014.01.24 20:40:00 - [13] - Quote BrownEye1129 wrote: Doesn't sound bad. I was thinking a slight charge up increase. I heard people saying a full second but I think that's a bit much. I would like maybe .10 - .15 added to the charge time along with a slight RoF reduction. I think just giving it a tighter spread would make it even more of a beast at long range which it is already. That's a valid point. But I'd leave the rest of the tweaking to the DEVs. I made my suggestion with just the goal of giving the RR a clear disadvantage in a CQC situation without nerfing it's ability to perform in it's niche. I'm sure additional tweaking can be made by the DEVs after that change to keep their vision in check. "Not to worry. The cards say you loved it." `- Ryoutoshi`
Shiruba Ryou 151	Posted - 2014.01.24 20:43:00 - [14] - Quote N1ck Comeau wrote: I still think bigger dispersion is better, if you got good with super good hipfire, you could snipe from the hip. Kinda like the snipers in Halo. Have you tried hitting PC players in their strafing grove? They cover so much ground that a bigger dispersion is a blessing. My AR has a decent spread and in PC matches if I lose my cool for a second the opponent will clear out strafe my whole spread. "Not to worry. The cards say you loved it." `- Ryoutoshi`
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 1691	Posted - 2014.01.24 20:49:00 - [15] - Quote +1. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor! Forum Warrior lv.1
RedZer0 MK1 The Generals General Tso's Alliance 165	Posted - 2014.01.24 21:01:00 - [16] - Quote Unless they bring the hip fire to laser level, it would just make the RR better in CQC.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 1356	Posted - 2014.01.24 21:19:00 - [17] - Quote Implement this idea, make it kick like a pissed off mule in both ADS and hipfire and increase spool up time to a full half-second per shot. Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
Roy Ventus Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance 984	Posted - 2014.01.25 01:07:00 - [18] - Quote The Breach feels good for me in CQC...idk. But then I guess it wouldn't make the gun completely useless in CQC but also still give others the advantage. "There once was a time when there wasn't a Roy Ventus and it wasn't much of a time at all." Roy Ventus
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1736	Posted - 2014.01.25 01:20:00 - [19] - Quote I've actually commented on this in the past and recently, but yes dispersion is a benefit for high fire rate, close range weapons. Something else you can do to compound this is ramp up recoil when fired from hip, making it difficult to hold the crosshairs on the target when hip firing. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1724975#post1724975 1.8 Sentinels Damage Efficiency Effective HP
Psyon Sebiestor FACTION WARFARE ARMY 100	Posted - 2014.01.25 01:37:00 - [20] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: hmm will bring this up thanks for the knock on the head these things get forgotten about easily. Reduce the SCR rate of fire and make that just as useless in CQC as the RR then !!!!! You can't nerf the RR and CR without nerfing the SCR too Seriously we are just going to have OP SCR again just like in 1.6 if you leave it as it is and nerf the other 2 guns

OZAROW Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 1291	Posted - 2014.01.25 02:27:00 - [21] - Quote I think this is similar to the shotgun 4 months ago, trying to point blank a uplink an miss cuz it seemed to have way to good accuracy like a cone an not the whole circle SUPER NOVA KNIFE SAIYAN 4
GLOBAL RAGE Consolidated Dust 15	Posted - 2014.01.25 09:05:00 - [22] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Implement this idea, make it kick like a pissed off mule in both ADS and hipfire and increase spool up time to a full half-second per shot. sure give it a fire select switch, single, burst and full auto and 120 damage per shot and i'll be your huckleberry. i use my toxin smg in cqb any ways.
Rei Shepard The Rainbow Effect 1494	Posted - 2014.01.25 09:35:00 - [23] - Quote Shiruba Ryou wrote: Why not just make the hipfire crosshairs really tight? With a tight hipfire you can no longer be in CQC to strafe-spray-and pray. It would force RR user to keep at a range far enough to be able to "effectively track your targets". That's the disadvantage rail weapons area supposed to have. Got this idea while playing with my Breach AR. You know how that thing has a pretty tight hipfire spread? If I'm ******** close to someone, I can't track them well enough to land those reduced RoF shots. So I get close but not 'in my visor' close. Make the Rail Rilfe spread tight as hell so the really accurate rail weapon fires almost exactly where your pointing even in hipfire. Fixes the whole CQC problem which is in my opinion the only one it has. It's the reason good strafing close to a sniper looking at you once your within say 30m will keep him from hitting you long enough to get in closer and kill him. Rail rifles keep their damage, RoF, charge time, everything they have right now so that their ability to be a mid-long range bully isn't nerved at all. The only thing that will change is their range of engagement ability. If you make the hipfire spread nearly zero, i garentee you a hipfire headshot everytime, there will be nearly no incentive for me to use ADS anymore and loose my mobility to aim for your head. Maybe this will work for every scrub out there using the gold old method of "spray & pray"...but opening the bloom of the gun will impair its use allot more as you cannot work around "random" bullet spray unless its as "random" as counterstrike then you have a problem, but it isnt. Winner of the EU Squad Cup "Go Go Power Rangers!" "Accuracy"
Vicious Minotaur Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 604	Posted - 2014.01.25 09:55:00 - [24] - Quote An idea that does not suck... Imagine that. Some people around here should be taking notes.
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1010	Posted - 2014.01.25 15:01:00 - [25] - Quote Shiruba Ryou wrote: Why not just make the hipfire crosshairs really tight? With a tight hipfire you can no longer be in CQC to strafe-spray-and pray. It would force RR user to keep at a range far enough to be able to "effectively track your targets". That's the disadvantage rail weapons area supposed to have. Got this idea while playing with my Breach AR. You know how that thing has a pretty tight hipfire spread? If I'm ******** close to someone, I can't track them well enough to land those reduced RoF shots. So I get close but not 'in my visor' close. Make the Rail Rilfe spread tight as hell so the really accurate rail weapon fires almost exactly where your pointing even in hipfire. Fixes the whole CQC problem which is in my opinion the only one it has. It's the reason good strafing close to a sniper looking at you once your within say 30m will keep him from hitting you long enough to get in closer and kill him. Rail rifles keep their damage, RoF, charge time, everything they have right now so that their ability to be a mid-long range bully isn't nerved at all. The only thing that will change is their range of engagement ability. Except that this just makes kb/m rail rifling that much better and makes people who can actually aim in CQC beastmode. The breach AR is still viable in CQC BECAUSE it has such tight hip fire. What made the TAR OP was it's crazy accuracy in hip fire despite being a long range weapon. Tight hip fire would actually make it better than it is now for everyone except those who are already bad at aiming in CQC. The best recourse would be to make it kick and spray like mad when it isn't in ADS. To apply to L.O.T.I.S. or to squad with us, join our public chat channel: L.O.T.I.S.
Charlotte O'Dell Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 1738	Posted - 2014.01.25 15:34:00 - [26] - Quote omg yes! brilliant!!!!! Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
Shiruba Ryou 172	Posted - 2014.01.25 20:19:00 - [27] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Shiruba Ryou wrote: Why not just make the hipfire crosshairs really tight? With a tight hipfire you can no longer be in CQC to strafe-spray-and pray. It would force RR user to keep at a range far enough to be able to "effectively track your targets". That's the disadvantage rail weapons area supposed to have. Got this idea while playing with my Breach AR. You know how that thing has a pretty tight hipfire spread? If I'm ******** close to someone, I can't track them well enough to land those reduced RoF shots. So I get close but not 'in my visor' close. Make the Rail Rilfe spread tight as hell so the really accurate rail weapon fires almost exactly where your pointing even in hipfire. Fixes the whole CQC problem which is in my opinion the only one it has. It's the reason good strafing close to a sniper looking at you once your within say 30m will keep him from hitting you long enough to get in closer and kill him. Rail rifles keep their damage, RoF, charge time, everything they have right now so that their ability to be a mid-long range bully isn't nerved at all. The only thing that will change is their range of engagement ability. Except that this just makes kb/m rail rifling that much better and makes people who can actually aim in CQC beastmode. The breach AR is still viable in CQC BECAUSE it has such tight hip fire. What made the TAR OP was it's crazy accuracy in hip fire despite being a long range weapon. Tight hip fire would actually make it better than it is now for everyone except those who are already bad at aiming in CQC. The best recourse would be to make it kick and spray like mad when it isn't in ADS. Tight. Yes. We're talking near Laser rifle accurate in hipfire. The breach works well in CQQ because it has a decently tight spread that gets a nice sise while strafing + the increased spread of continuous fire. The resulting spread in perfect for that distance and allows a good player to really get most of the bullets on target. A poor shooter would be better off with the larger spread of the Standard AR. Now lets look at the high damage high dispersion of the current TAC AR. We can agree that it's dispersion is quite large. But It still can perform alright in a CQC setting. Why? Because its so large. If you get close enough, that spread can be made to cover the entirety of the opponents body. No amount of strafing will get you out of that spread. And because it's Blaster by nature, I've only ever needed 3-4 bullets to hit someone before they die. Unless your going to make the hipfire spread so large that it is wider than most of your visibility area then what it will do is simply make mid range hipfire worst, but become better for CQC the closer you get. Wider hipfire spread in a CQC strafe fight gives you the advantage. And most competitive mercenaries that pay attention in their individual skirmishes understand this and I hope this post reaches them as well. I'm glad for the support of gotten so far as well. For more examples I encourage others to look at, look at the laser rifle. That pinpoint accurate hipfire is great for mid-long (50-100+) non-ADS firing. So it makes it good at fast maneuvering long range fire. Funny, isn't that what rail users are supposed to be in New Eden? Short to mid range (0-49) is where you'll start seeing issues. Because someone decent can move easily enough to evade your low RoF shots and either wait till your clip runs out or just kill you. A laser rifle is a continuous stream so it has a little breathing room here. But not the Rail Rifle. It's low RoF coupled with a non-existent spread would effectively render in near useless in Short- near mid range against an adequately agile target. Hopefully this further explanation of my goal helps others to see my point and support this. I welcome any other conflicting opinions as well. The theory crafting of scenarios can only help any CCP or CPM that look at this decide how to finally tweak the gun. "Not to worry. The cards say you loved it." `- Ryoutoshi`
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 240	Posted - 2014.01.25 20:46:00 - [28] - Quote Make hipfire 500% wider, rate of fire lower, more damage per bullet, and 2x more charge time, and 1.5x more scoped zoom. so that overall the dps stays the same, but it is ineffective in cqc. The assault rail rifle is good for everything except the damage per bullet needs a slight reduction (emphasis on slight). Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives. https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
Shiruba Ryou 172	Posted - 2014.01.25 21:02:00 - [29] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Make hipfire 500% wider, rate of fire lower, more damage per bullet, and 2x more charge time, and 1.5x more scoped zoom. so that overall the dps stays the same, but it is ineffective in cqc. The assault rail rifle is good for everything except the damage per bullet needs a slight reduction (emphasis on slight). Nerf it into the ground why don't you geez. EDIT: Sorry that's not even the point. Did you even bother to read the explanations I gave to why that would be a bad idea? "Not to worry. The cards say you loved it." `- Ryoutoshi`
Dkafamos Comando Brasil 46	Posted - 2014.01.25 21:07:00 - [30] - Quote Its a simple fix. Increase spread per shot on ADS and hipfire. It amazed me how pinpoint accurate the rifles are in the 10 first shots. Increase the spread per shot on both and you'll get higher TTK and lower Hip fire accuracy for most weapons. RR will stil remain the most accurate, but with the lowest RoF, this will easily balance it out. High RoF win easily the RR if both have the same skills

Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 1358	Posted - 2014.01.26 18:18:00 - [31] - Quote GLOBAL RAGE wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Implement this idea, make it kick like a pissed off mule in both ADS and hipfire and increase spool up time to a full half-second per shot. sure give it a fire select switch, single, burst and full auto and 120 damage per shot and i'll be your huckleberry. i use my toxin smg in cqb any ways. Your response just screams "NOOOOOOOOO!!!! Don't take my easy button from me!!! NOOOOOOO!!!" Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 440	Posted - 2014.01.26 18:24:00 - [32] - Quote I tried the RR on an alt a few days back It was the closet I have came to quitting this game l4 and I was going toe-toe with proto suits..... and killing them It's not at all cool that it takes so little investment to mureder guys with over 20mil SP whats the point in specialising in anything if a l4 weapon, no mods or prof. can lay waste to a full proto fitting.... Minmatar Demolitions Specialist Plasma Cannon Pro
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 3618	Posted - 2014.01.26 18:49:00 - [33] - Quote I actually use the Breach AR because I think it is easier to use when jumping and moving. I don't know why you guys say it will be worse in CQC. My alts: General John Ripper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Anarchide, Long Evity And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 131	Posted - 2014.01.26 18:56:00 - [34] - Quote Just make sure to leave the assault rail rifle with the current hip fire spread, that way it retains it's more "assault" aspect to it and isn't nerfed into oblivion like the TAC AR


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