DUST Search - Why are all minmatar suits losing their base armor rep rate in 1.8?

D legendary hero wrote:

Darken-Soul wrote:

D legendary hero wrote:

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1776633#post1776633

The original subject can be read below. Feel free to comment on that. I am changing the direction of this discusion because many comments revealed to me what I suspected all along. That minmatat dropsuits really are weak in just about every area compared to other suits.

The obvious weakness is the low EHP. But we would hope that this lack of durability would be compensated with another more potent factor. But they are not. Common arguments for why the low EHP is justified:
(note: this compares dropsuits of the same type accross the races...ie medium frame with medium frame)

higher speed:
This is mitigated by 5 things.

Aim assist
active scanners ("everyone knows where you are" --sir campslot)
anyone can reach the same speed with 1 kin cat and still have more EHP
hit scans are instantaneous
all strafe speeds are approximately the same (minmatar have only 6% more strafe speed than Caldari and galente. but nearly 25% less ehp)

As we can see a marginally higher speed (in the case of galente and caldari minmatar are only faster by 1m/s (this is run speed ONLY, their movement speed or strafe seed is 5.3 m/s only .3m/s higher than galente or caldari). Granted their stamina is higher but this doens't justfy such an unforgivably low EHP.

Stronger weapons and higher damage

this is migitaged by 2 FACTs which everyone here is well aware of:
[list]

Anyone can use any light weapon of the other races to the same ability the other races can. This can be done without reprocusion. (except for amarr. The Scr rifle is the only light weapon that only Amarr can use to its fullest ability)

This means anyone can use a minmatar weapon as good as a minmatar. Everyone sees Caldari assaults running around with SMGs and CRs. So, a stronger suit with more EHP using a stronger weapon = better result.

Anyone can use damage mods and as commenters below noted, after the 2 complex damage mod TTK is pretty much the same.

So the glass cannon theory of minmatar combat is shattered by these facts.

Solution with balance in view:
Minmatar should get faster shield Recharge and innate Armor reps because, look. Galente and minmatar are the armor rep guys and should have faster shield recovery in one way or another. This is how it is in EVE.

Amarr should ALWAYS have the highest EHP. That is their trademark in EVE. Relentless and unstoppable.
Caldari are supposed to have extremely high shields.

So, EHP wise the flow should be:
Ammar> Caldari> Galente > minmatar

but Armor and shield rep/recharge the flow should be:
Minmatar> Galente> Caldari> Amarr

Minmatar EHP should be 6-15% lower than galente. But their shield recharge should be faster than galente and caldari by 15-25%. They should also have the shortest sheild recharge delay of all the suits of their tier (shortest delay 20-25% on scout, medium, heavy, etc) They should also have a passive armor regen that suppliments this or 1-2hp/s. By doing this the EHP difference will be better balanced.

The lower the number choosen in one field the lower in should be in the others. for example:
if EHP difference between Minmatar EHP and galente/caldari is 6%, then minmatar shield recharge should be only 15% faster and they should have only 1hp/s armor rep.

if EHP difference between minmatar EHP and galente/caldari is 15%, then minmatar shield recharge should be 25% faster and they should have 3hp/sec armor rep.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1730164#post1730164

As of 1.8:
The minmatar logi will become the most worthless suit in the game. its the logi with the lowest, ehp, only marginally higher speed (.3 extra m/s ..ohhhhhh) which is neutralized when you put on armor plates to have any actually ehp. now it gets a bonus to armor repair tools. Great! except the rep tool is being nerfed into the ground so, there is no point to it. at proficiency you get less range and rep rate than you have now. Most minmatar suits dnt have enough armor to be repaired anyway. galente heavies could use the rep, but they have innate reps anyway, and their are better suits that can use rep tools.
all and all the hack speed is gone, the rep tool is broke (gonna have half the range in 1.8), and minmatar logi is garbage, like all the other minmatar suits. So, this is reason enough for a respec itself.

The minmatar scout will get the hack speed bonus, but besides that nova knives? really? the minmatar assault suit gets a bonus to minmatar weapons and ammo size, but the low ehp means you probably won't survive long enough to take advantage of that. hint: using minmatar weapons at range =/= kills.

the minmatar commando may be useful.

the minmatar heavy is literally a slower medium frame wth lower ehp potential than a galente and caldari standard frame, and slower speed. it also has by far the abosulte worst resistance bonus.

TL;DR

minmatar suit should have the folowing stats in this order.
minmatar scout = shield recharge delay 2 sec, shield recharge 45hp/s. innate armor rep 2hps

minmatar medium frame (assault and logi) = shield recharge delay 3 seconds, sheild recharge 40hp/s. innate armor rep. 2hp/s

minmatar heavy frame = shield recharge delay 3.5 seconds, shield recharge 40 hp/s. innate armor rep 2hp/s

so skill into something else.

into your mom. i got proficiency 5


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Darken-Soul BIG BAD W0LVES 1023	Posted - 2014.02.22 04:31:00 - [1] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1776633#post1776633 The original subject can be read below. Feel free to comment on that. I am changing the direction of this discusion because many comments revealed to me what I suspected all along. That minmatat dropsuits really are weak in just about every area compared to other suits. The obvious weakness is the low EHP. But we would hope that this lack of durability would be compensated with another more potent factor. But they are not. Common arguments for why the low EHP is justified: (note: this compares dropsuits of the same type accross the races...ie medium frame with medium frame) higher speed: This is mitigated by 5 things. Aim assist active scanners ("everyone knows where you are" --sir campslot) anyone can reach the same speed with 1 kin cat and still have more EHP hit scans are instantaneous all strafe speeds are approximately the same (minmatar have only 6% more strafe speed than Caldari and galente. but nearly 25% less ehp) As we can see a marginally higher speed (in the case of galente and caldari minmatar are only faster by 1m/s (this is run speed ONLY, their movement speed or strafe seed is 5.3 m/s only .3m/s higher than galente or caldari). Granted their stamina is higher but this doens't justfy such an unforgivably low EHP. Stronger weapons and higher damage this is migitaged by 2 FACTs which everyone here is well aware of: [list] Anyone can use any light weapon of the other races to the same ability the other races can. This can be done without reprocusion. (except for amarr. The Scr rifle is the only light weapon that only Amarr can use to its fullest ability) This means anyone can use a minmatar weapon as good as a minmatar. Everyone sees Caldari assaults running around with SMGs and CRs. So, a stronger suit with more EHP using a stronger weapon = better result. Anyone can use damage mods and as commenters below noted, after the 2 complex damage mod TTK is pretty much the same. So the glass cannon theory of minmatar combat is shattered by these facts. Solution with balance in view: Minmatar should get faster shield Recharge and innate Armor reps because, look. Galente and minmatar are the armor rep guys and should have faster shield recovery in one way or another. This is how it is in EVE. Amarr should ALWAYS have the highest EHP. That is their trademark in EVE. Relentless and unstoppable. Caldari are supposed to have extremely high shields. So, EHP wise the flow should be: Ammar> Caldari> Galente > minmatar but Armor and shield rep/recharge the flow should be: Minmatar> Galente> Caldari> Amarr Minmatar EHP should be 6-15% lower than galente. But their shield recharge should be faster than galente and caldari by 15-25%. They should also have the shortest sheild recharge delay of all the suits of their tier (shortest delay 20-25% on scout, medium, heavy, etc) They should also have a passive armor regen that suppliments this or 1-2hp/s. By doing this the EHP difference will be better balanced. The lower the number choosen in one field the lower in should be in the others. for example: if EHP difference between Minmatar EHP and galente/caldari is 6%, then minmatar shield recharge should be only 15% faster and they should have only 1hp/s armor rep. if EHP difference between minmatar EHP and galente/caldari is 15%, then minmatar shield recharge should be 25% faster and they should have 3hp/sec armor rep. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1730164#post1730164 As of 1.8: The minmatar logi will become the most worthless suit in the game. its the logi with the lowest, ehp, only marginally higher speed (.3 extra m/s ..ohhhhhh) which is neutralized when you put on armor plates to have any actually ehp. now it gets a bonus to armor repair tools. Great! except the rep tool is being nerfed into the ground so, there is no point to it. at proficiency you get less range and rep rate than you have now. Most minmatar suits dnt have enough armor to be repaired anyway. galente heavies could use the rep, but they have innate reps anyway, and their are better suits that can use rep tools. all and all the hack speed is gone, the rep tool is broke (gonna have half the range in 1.8), and minmatar logi is garbage, like all the other minmatar suits. So, this is reason enough for a respec itself. The minmatar scout will get the hack speed bonus, but besides that nova knives? really? the minmatar assault suit gets a bonus to minmatar weapons and ammo size, but the low ehp means you probably won't survive long enough to take advantage of that. hint: using minmatar weapons at range =/= kills. the minmatar commando may be useful. the minmatar heavy is literally a slower medium frame wth lower ehp potential than a galente and caldari standard frame, and slower speed. it also has by far the abosulte worst resistance bonus. TL;DR minmatar suit should have the folowing stats in this order. minmatar scout = shield recharge delay 2 sec, shield recharge 45hp/s. innate armor rep 2hps minmatar medium frame (assault and logi) = shield recharge delay 3 seconds, sheild recharge 40hp/s. innate armor rep. 2hp/s minmatar heavy frame = shield recharge delay 3.5 seconds, shield recharge 40 hp/s. innate armor rep 2hp/s so skill into something else. Who wants some?
Darken-Soul BIG BAD W0LVES 1322	Posted - 2014.02.26 20:32:00 - [2] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: Darken-Soul wrote: D legendary hero wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1776633#post1776633 The original subject can be read below. Feel free to comment on that. I am changing the direction of this discusion because many comments revealed to me what I suspected all along. That minmatat dropsuits really are weak in just about every area compared to other suits. The obvious weakness is the low EHP. But we would hope that this lack of durability would be compensated with another more potent factor. But they are not. Common arguments for why the low EHP is justified: (note: this compares dropsuits of the same type accross the races...ie medium frame with medium frame) higher speed: This is mitigated by 5 things. Aim assist active scanners ("everyone knows where you are" --sir campslot) anyone can reach the same speed with 1 kin cat and still have more EHP hit scans are instantaneous all strafe speeds are approximately the same (minmatar have only 6% more strafe speed than Caldari and galente. but nearly 25% less ehp) As we can see a marginally higher speed (in the case of galente and caldari minmatar are only faster by 1m/s (this is run speed ONLY, their movement speed or strafe seed is 5.3 m/s only .3m/s higher than galente or caldari). Granted their stamina is higher but this doens't justfy such an unforgivably low EHP. Stronger weapons and higher damage this is migitaged by 2 FACTs which everyone here is well aware of: [list] Anyone can use any light weapon of the other races to the same ability the other races can. This can be done without reprocusion. (except for amarr. The Scr rifle is the only light weapon that only Amarr can use to its fullest ability) This means anyone can use a minmatar weapon as good as a minmatar. Everyone sees Caldari assaults running around with SMGs and CRs. So, a stronger suit with more EHP using a stronger weapon = better result. Anyone can use damage mods and as commenters below noted, after the 2 complex damage mod TTK is pretty much the same. So the glass cannon theory of minmatar combat is shattered by these facts. Solution with balance in view: Minmatar should get faster shield Recharge and innate Armor reps because, look. Galente and minmatar are the armor rep guys and should have faster shield recovery in one way or another. This is how it is in EVE. Amarr should ALWAYS have the highest EHP. That is their trademark in EVE. Relentless and unstoppable. Caldari are supposed to have extremely high shields. So, EHP wise the flow should be: Ammar> Caldari> Galente > minmatar but Armor and shield rep/recharge the flow should be: Minmatar> Galente> Caldari> Amarr Minmatar EHP should be 6-15% lower than galente. But their shield recharge should be faster than galente and caldari by 15-25%. They should also have the shortest sheild recharge delay of all the suits of their tier (shortest delay 20-25% on scout, medium, heavy, etc) They should also have a passive armor regen that suppliments this or 1-2hp/s. By doing this the EHP difference will be better balanced. The lower the number choosen in one field the lower in should be in the others. for example: if EHP difference between Minmatar EHP and galente/caldari is 6%, then minmatar shield recharge should be only 15% faster and they should have only 1hp/s armor rep. if EHP difference between minmatar EHP and galente/caldari is 15%, then minmatar shield recharge should be 25% faster and they should have 3hp/sec armor rep. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1730164#post1730164 As of 1.8: The minmatar logi will become the most worthless suit in the game. its the logi with the lowest, ehp, only marginally higher speed (.3 extra m/s ..ohhhhhh) which is neutralized when you put on armor plates to have any actually ehp. now it gets a bonus to armor repair tools. Great! except the rep tool is being nerfed into the ground so, there is no point to it. at proficiency you get less range and rep rate than you have now. Most minmatar suits dnt have enough armor to be repaired anyway. galente heavies could use the rep, but they have innate reps anyway, and their are better suits that can use rep tools. all and all the hack speed is gone, the rep tool is broke (gonna have half the range in 1.8), and minmatar logi is garbage, like all the other minmatar suits. So, this is reason enough for a respec itself. The minmatar scout will get the hack speed bonus, but besides that nova knives? really? the minmatar assault suit gets a bonus to minmatar weapons and ammo size, but the low ehp means you probably won't survive long enough to take advantage of that. hint: using minmatar weapons at range =/= kills. the minmatar commando may be useful. the minmatar heavy is literally a slower medium frame wth lower ehp potential than a galente and caldari standard frame, and slower speed. it also has by far the abosulte worst resistance bonus. TL;DR minmatar suit should have the folowing stats in this order. minmatar scout = shield recharge delay 2 sec, shield recharge 45hp/s. innate armor rep 2hps minmatar medium frame (assault and logi) = shield recharge delay 3 seconds, sheild recharge 40hp/s. innate armor rep. 2hp/s minmatar heavy frame = shield recharge delay 3.5 seconds, shield recharge 40 hp/s. innate armor rep 2hp/s so skill into something else. into your mom. i got proficiency 5 I bet she likes that. Now if only you could produce more than 3inches she might keep you around. Who wants some?