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Time to Kill (TTK) - Solution

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bogeyman m Learning Coalition College 9	Posted - 2014.01.15 10:25:00 - [1] - Quote I'm certain that this topic has already been covered many times, but I really don't see how it is that complicated to solve... Solution: Step 1 - Remove all weapon proficiency training from the skills tree. (Reduce maximum weapon damage by 15%.) Step 2 - There is no step two. Issue already fixed. Justification: a) Does a proto weapon really need to be another 15% better than the weapon it's already better than? (I think not.) This is what contributes to imbalances and makes it very difficult for CCP to manage Std, Adv and Pro damage slope. Just look at the recent Swarm Launcher nerf for evidence: People were complaining about how OP the SwL was (referring to Pro level with Damage Mods, of course). Now Std and Adv SwL are near useless. b) Example: Should a GEK with Proficiency 5 perform better than a Duvolle AR? (I think not.) If you want to do more damage use a better weapon and, optionally, Damage Mods. If you run into fitting problems, you will need to make some decisions that may effect your play style. Simple. (I think this adds to the strategy of the game and takes away one 'easy button' for those who pub stomp.)
Auris Lionesse SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 55	Posted - 2014.01.15 11:24:00 - [2] - Quote Or limit damage mods to 1 per suit.
Altina McAlterson Pure Innocence. EoN. 798	Posted - 2014.01.15 12:08:00 - [3] - Quote Or boost all suit HP by 200. Good Advice Grey 17 should have stayed missing.
Cosgar ParagonX 9095	Posted - 2014.01.15 12:13:00 - [4] - Quote It's a step in the right direction, but there's no such thing as an easy fix here. Since beta, this game has been balanced around unreliable hit detection. Simply saying "do this" or "tweak that" isn't going to magically rebalance things overnight. Everything needs to be carefully reevaluated. Damage profiles, ranges, base suit HP, skill bonuses, module performance, weapon sway, recoil, accuracy, etc. It all needs to be looked at now that one major core issue has significantly improved. Doing little bandaid fixes will just perpetuate the "polishing a turd" approach that's plagued Dust for far too long. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Alam Storm Third Rock From The Sun INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 59	Posted - 2014.01.15 12:18:00 - [5] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: Or limit damage mods to 1 per suit. i suggested that ages ago or at least put 3% dispersion on it so you gain 10% more damage at the risk of it being less accurate
Alam Storm Third Rock From The Sun INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 59	Posted - 2014.01.15 12:19:00 - [6] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: Or limit damage mods to 1 per suit. i suggested that ages ago or at least put 3% dispersion on it so you gain 10% more damage at the risk of it being less accurate Quote: b) Example: Should a GEK with Proficiency 5 perform better than a Duvolle AR? (I think not.) If you want to do more damage use a better weapon and, optionally, Damage Mods. If you run into fitting problems, you will need to make some decisions that may effect your play style. Simple. (I think this adds to the strategy of the game and takes away one 'easy button' for those who pub stomp.) its not the proficiency its the damage mods people can stack on it because it takes up less CPU and PG people can add more
xAckie Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 401	Posted - 2014.01.15 14:40:00 - [7] - Quote Alam Storm wrote: its not the proficiency its the damage mods people can stack on it because it takes up less CPU and PG people can add more ^^^ its not that TTK is too low, its that in pubs there is a mix of suits ranging from militia to proto. TTK feels low when damage mods are stacked on a logi say. There just isnt a downside to not doing this (whilst stacking armour). I am in favour of removing damage mods as I think it would greatly help CCP to balance the game. Though I am realistic to know their removal will never happen.
Alam Storm Third Rock From The Sun INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 59	Posted - 2014.01.15 16:12:00 - [8] - Quote xAckie wrote: Alam Storm wrote: its not the proficiency its the damage mods people can stack on it because it takes up less CPU and PG people can add more ^^^ its not that TTK is too low, its that in pubs there is a mix of suits ranging from militia to proto. TTK feels low when damage mods are stacked on a logi say. There just isnt a downside to not doing this (whilst stacking armour). I am in favour of removing damage mods as I think it would greatly help CCP to balance the game. Though I am realistic to know their removal will never happen. then do a dispersion
bogeyman m Learning Coalition College 12	Posted - 2014.01.15 20:05:00 - [9] - Quote Cosgar wrote: It's a step in the right direction, but there's no such thing as an easy fix here. Since beta, this game has been balanced around unreliable hit detection. Simply saying "do this" or "tweak that" isn't going to magically rebalance things overnight. Everything needs to be carefully reevaluated. Damage profiles, ranges, base suit HP, skill bonuses, module performance, weapon sway, recoil, accuracy, etc. It all needs to be looked at now that one major core issue has significantly improved. Doing little bandaid fixes will just perpetuate the "polishing a turd" approach that's plagued Dust for far too long. Agreed. It is just one step, but I think it is a very viable FIRST step. Next step would be to PAUSE and evaluate the results before making another (over) correction. This is the type of thing that needs to be dialed in gradually to get it right.
bogeyman m Learning Coalition College 13	Posted - 2014.01.15 20:19:00 - [10] - Quote Alam Storm wrote: Auris Lionesse wrote: Or limit damage mods to 1 per suit. i suggested that ages ago or at least put 3% dispersion on it so you gain 10% more damage at the risk of it being less accurate Quote: b) Example: Should a GEK with Proficiency 5 perform better than a Duvolle AR? (I think not.) If you want to do more damage use a better weapon and, optionally, Damage Mods. If you run into fitting problems, you will need to make some decisions that may effect your play style. Simple. (I think this adds to the strategy of the game and takes away one 'easy button' for those who pub stomp.) its not the proficiency its the damage mods people can stack on it because it takes up less CPU and PG people can add more Damage Mods actually cost more CPU than Shields... But part of the issue is that choosing between those two is only an issue for Shield Tankers as Armour Tankers don't actually have to sacrifice much to keep their eHP.

Draco Cerberus BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 690	Posted - 2014.01.15 20:22:00 - [11] - Quote Theoretically this would increase TTK, but IMO CCP doesn't want to increase TTK they want it to be quick fights with lots of loss. Remember, they want to have a market for Eve players to sell gear to, not a 1 suit a night market either but rather 50-150 suits per night. It is an attempt to make the market a viable investment for Eve players rather than a low sale, low profit market. LogiGod earns his pips
bogeyman m Learning Coalition College 13	Posted - 2014.01.15 20:24:00 - [12] - Quote xAckie wrote: Alam Storm wrote: its not the proficiency its the damage mods people can stack on it because it takes up less CPU and PG people can add more ^^^ its not that TTK is too low, its that in pubs there is a mix of suits ranging from militia to proto. TTK feels low when damage mods are stacked on a logi say. There just isnt a downside to not doing this (whilst stacking armour). I am in favour of removing damage mods as I think it would greatly help CCP to balance the game. Though I am realistic to know their removal will never happen. As Cosgar suggested, there likely isn't a one step solution to this issue. However, I believe removing the Weapon Profiencency Skill is the best first step - reviewing Damage Mods might be a good next step (after a pause to evaluate the first correction, of course).
bogeyman m Learning Coalition College 13	Posted - 2014.01.15 20:35:00 - [13] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Theoretically this would increase TTK, but IMO CCP doesn't want to increase TTK they want it to be quick fights with lots of loss. Remember, they want to have a market for Eve players to sell gear to, not a 1 suit a night market either but rather 50-150 suits per night. It is an attempt to make the market a viable investment for Eve players rather than a low sale, low profit market. If that is the case, and it may well be, then they are going down the road of a CoD copy, of which I am NOT interested in playing. I like the potential of this game because of the variety of roles and strategies that could be realized if fully/properly developed. I think that is why a LOT of players choose Dust514 over something else. If they are hoping for a short term cash grab, then I fear they are making a fatal choice versus a longer term strategy that encourages a MUCH larger player base. (For CCP, that would mean less average money per player, but everything counts in large amounts.)
Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 2943	Posted - 2014.01.15 20:40:00 - [14] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: Or limit damage mods to 1 per suit. Or remove all damage mods of any type (excluding skills that require SP, such as proficiency levels) Problem solved Commando 6 // A.R.C Commander // D-Uni instructor A Balac's and a Thale's.....What's on your commando?
bogeyman m Learning Coalition College 13	Posted - 2014.01.15 21:13:00 - [15] - Quote Fire of Prometheus wrote: Auris Lionesse wrote: Or limit damage mods to 1 per suit. Or remove all damage mods of any type (excluding skills that require SP, such as proficiency levels) Problem solved Then you still have the issue where a GEK (or lesser AR) with L5 Proficiency out-performs a 'naked' Duvolle, for example. If you want to do more DPS then I strongly believe that you should have to use a better weapon and deal with the fitting choices that come with it. That is the point of Adv/Pro suits after all - not to be an 'easy button' to uber-tank by fitting a lower CPU/PG weapon to make room for yet another shield or armour or damage mod. Choices should have consequences - it adds to the diversity, and interest, in the game.
Altina McAlterson Pure Innocence. EoN. 800	Posted - 2014.01.15 21:13:00 - [16] - Quote Fire of Prometheus wrote: Auris Lionesse wrote: Or limit damage mods to 1 per suit. Or remove all damage mods of any type (excluding skills that require SP, such as proficiency levels) Problem solved Then you mess up Forge Guns, Sniper Rifles and possibly nova knives (don't know, don't use them) which all pretty much require damage mods to be effective. My Assault Forge Gun took a 25% nerf to DPS the last build and if you take away damage mods that's another 12% or so. Good Advice Grey 17 should have stayed missing.
Dustbunny Durrr ReD or DeaD 44	Posted - 2014.01.15 21:17:00 - [17] - Quote If you want a longer TTK the simple fix is higher base suit HP (shields/armor) (and perhaps more health from shield extenders/armor plates). Everything else fails the test of KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid).
bogeyman m Learning Coalition College 13	Posted - 2014.01.15 21:21:00 - [18] - Quote Dustbunny Durrr wrote: If you want a longer TTK the simple fix is higher base suit HP (shields/armor) (and perhaps more health from shield extenders/armor plates). Everything else fails the test of KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid) and just begs the solution to problem A, to be the cause of problem B. The you lose/minimize the risk/reward fitting decision component that impacts diversity and strategy.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 837	Posted - 2014.01.16 01:02:00 - [19] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Dustbunny Durrr wrote: If you want a longer TTK the simple fix is higher base suit HP (shields/armor) (and perhaps more health from shield extenders/armor plates). Everything else fails the test of KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid) and just begs the solution to problem A, to be the cause of problem B. The you lose/minimize the risk/reward fitting decision component that impacts diversity and strategy. TTK was fine when every bullet that hit was actually aimed by that player... it was rewarding and FUNN. Watch what happens to TTK when everyone had to aim for themselfs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNFs1z0mvoQ And you can look at any video from these times even with really strong weapons being wielded. Aim assist has killed so much of the dynamic game play aswell as so many possibilities to ever bring back the actual gungame everyone enjoyed.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 837	Posted - 2014.01.16 01:05:00 - [20] - Quote This is what killed most of the TTK and gungame and FUN in DUST 514.

KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 434	Posted - 2014.01.16 01:34:00 - [21] - Quote The scope of this solution is too broad.
Talos Vagheitan Ancient Exiles. 402	Posted - 2014.01.16 06:39:00 - [22] - Quote Most "solutions" require there to first be a problem Who cares what some sniper has to say


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