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Vell0cet
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
767
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Posted - 2014.01.11 00:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
Tiericide would destroy the risk vs. ISK mechanism which is DUST's biggest redeeming quality. It would turn DUST into a pathetic clone of PS2. We can fix the NPE by creating an optional 2nd tier academy battle mode available to all players with less than x SP (maybe around 2 -5 million SP). I usually don't wear my proto suit in most pub matches, but sometimes I feel compelled to pull it out. Making those kinds of decisions are why I play DUST. It's incredibly satisfying to take out a proto suit while wearing a cheap fit.
F*ck tiericide.
Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
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Vell0cet
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
767
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Posted - 2014.01.11 00:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Vell0cet wrote:Tiericide would destroy the risk vs. ISK mechanism which is DUST's biggest redeeming quality. It would turn DUST into a pathetic clone of PS2. We can fix the NPE by creating an optional 2nd tier academy battle mode available to all players with less than x SP (maybe around 2 -5 million SP). I usually don't wear my proto suit in most pub matches, but sometimes I feel compelled to pull it out. Making those kinds of decisions are why I play DUST. It's incredibly satisfying to take out a proto suit while wearing a cheap fit.
F*ck tiericide. Shift the costs to the suits and weapons that is lost on the suits. Make certain suit classes slightly more pronounced in prices too for example there would be a large multiplier of a difference between tech 1 suits and their tech 2 cousins like 10x more maybe? Gallente had 7 frigates, 3 in teir 1 2 in teir 2 and 2 in teir 3 and teir 3 where not always the best even though they had the highest skill requirement (lvl 3) and nobody ever used tier 1s despite being the most cheapest because it was riskier to get caught dead in those ships. Post Teiricide 7 Frigates, all the similar mineral price. All useful all being used much more often now a days Also your idea would not work in the academy Vell0cet, it has yet to work, and I know expanding a second round of battles it would pronounce how wrong your idea is.
But all suits are being used right now. I use PRO, ADV, and STD fits (and I used MIL when I was trying things out in the beginning) regularly. DUST doesn't have the problem of suits from various tiers going unused because they're worthless. If I'm trying to earn ISK i'll go cheap, for most battles I'll use ADV gear, and for things that matter (or if someone really p*sses me off and I want revenge) I'll step it up to the expensive stuff. That's an interesting and fun dynamic that already exists. Tiericide in EVE was solving a very different problem (most ships were lame and unused/unloved). The problem DUST is having is the NPE which could be solved much better with the suggestion I posed above.
Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
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Vell0cet
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
767
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Posted - 2014.01.11 01:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Your looking at it the wrong way. What tier code would do is give MLT-ADV suits a fair fight vs a proto suit. The Proto suit will still be better and more expensive but the difference would be a lot smaller for example a proto suit compared to a MLT suit can have up to 30% more damage and double the HP. That's so unfair, and the learning curve and SP required to catch up is very steep. What tiercide would do is bring low level suits inline with proto suits, but will reward the higher level suits with a small advantage not a huge one. At the same time it will add variation with type II suits etc.
Why would I run a suit that costs 10x the cost if it's advantage is very small? Look at EVE. An Omen costs roughly 8 mill, it's T2 counterpart the Zealot costs roughly 150 mill. That's nearly a 20x increase in price, and anyone who plays EVE knows that in a straight 1v1 fight, the Omen will loose every time. But if you bring 2-3 Omens, you can easily take out a Zealot with much less ISK on the line.
I don't want fair fights. I want INTERESTING fights with tactics and different tiers of gear. It makes DUST fun, unique and exciting. With mixed levels of gear, the tactical situation is always changing and never the same. That's fun and interesting gameplay to me. Make DUST cookie-cutter where everyone's on a level playing field and you've got a **** game like Plannetside 2. If DUST tries to be a PS2 clone, it will fail miserably. Tiered gear and risk vs. ISK is literally the most interesting/fun aspect of DUST.
Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
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Vell0cet
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
767
|
Posted - 2014.01.11 01:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Vell0cet wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Your looking at it the wrong way. What tier code would do is give MLT-ADV suits a fair fight vs a proto suit. The Proto suit will still be better and more expensive but the difference would be a lot smaller for example a proto suit compared to a MLT suit can have up to 30% more damage and double the HP. That's so unfair, and the learning curve and SP required to catch up is very steep. What tiercide would do is bring low level suits inline with proto suits, but will reward the higher level suits with a small advantage not a huge one. At the same time it will add variation with type II suits etc. Why would I run a suit that costs 10x the cost if it's advantage is very small? Look at EVE. An Omen costs roughly 8 mill, it's T2 counterpart the Zealot costs roughly 150 mill. That's nearly a 20x increase in price, and anyone who plays EVE knows that in a straight 1v1 fight, the Omen will loose every time. But if you bring 2-3 Omens, you can easily take out a Zealot with much less ISK on the line. I don't want fair fights. I want INTERESTING fights with tactics and different tiers of gear. It makes DUST fun, unique and exciting. With mixed levels of gear, the tactical situation is always changing and never the same. That's fun and interesting gameplay to me. Make DUST cookie-cutter where everyone's on a level playing field and you've got a **** game like Plannetside 2. If DUST tries to be a PS2 clone, it will fail miserably. Tiered gear and risk vs. ISK is literally the most interesting/fun aspect of DUST. I bet the reward for destroying the Zealot is great... what's the reward for 3 mlt suits taking out a proto suit? Practically nothing.
Actually it's just a chance for some of it's mods to drop. It's mostly the satisfaction of taking away someone's expensive toy, which is the same reward you get in DUST (and also a percent of the cost of the suit/fittings gets added to the pool to be distributed at the end of the match, so you get a bigger payout). Don't you get a warm and fuzzy feeling when you kill someone's proto? Is there any other FPS that delivers such a satisfying experience?
Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
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Vell0cet
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
767
|
Posted - 2014.01.11 01:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:low genius wrote:people throw that word around. what do you guys think tiericide means? Destruction of tiers?
That's not actually how it worked in EVE (where the term comes from). There are still tiers, and different levels of meta gear post tiericide. The closest analog to DUST would be making sure that a STD Sentinel and a STD Commando were roughly equal in terms of their roles, and a PRO Assault would be roughly as good as a PRO Logic at their respective roles etc.
Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
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Vell0cet
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
767
|
Posted - 2014.01.11 02:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
Shiruba Ryou wrote:Vell0cet wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Your looking at it the wrong way. What tier code would do is give MLT-ADV suits a fair fight vs a proto suit. The Proto suit will still be better and more expensive but the difference would be a lot smaller for example a proto suit compared to a MLT suit can have up to 30% more damage and double the HP. That's so unfair, and the learning curve and SP required to catch up is very steep. What tiercide would do is bring low level suits inline with proto suits, but will reward the higher level suits with a small advantage not a huge one. At the same time it will add variation with type II suits etc. Why would I run a suit that costs 10x the cost if it's advantage is very small? Look at EVE. An Omen costs roughly 8 mill, it's T2 counterpart the Zealot costs roughly 150 mill. That's nearly a 20x increase in price, and anyone who plays EVE knows that in a straight 1v1 fight, the Omen will loose every time. But if you bring 2-3 Omens, you can easily take out a Zealot with much less ISK on the line. I don't want fair fights. I want INTERESTING fights with tactics and different tiers of gear. It makes DUST fun, unique and exciting. With mixed levels of gear, the tactical situation is always changing and never the same. That's fun and interesting gameplay to me. Make DUST cookie-cutter where everyone's on a level playing field and you've got a **** game like Plannetside 2. If DUST tries to be a PS2 clone, it will fail miserably. Tiered gear and risk vs. ISK is literally the most interesting/fun aspect of DUST. In Eve you can also call in needed Support from anywhere in the cluster as needed. Your not stuck with defined teams. With suits with defined roles, tactics will have to emerge in order to use each suit to the est of its ability. Squad compositions and strategies will matter more. Your contradicting yourself by wanting interesting fights when the only real tactic in matches right now is to field the 1-2 biggest and strongest gear and overrun the opposition with it. Take a moment to think about how our combat would change from these enhancements and give what IWS and others are saying a chance.
I don't have to take time to think about it, I can look at any other FPS game on the market and see how it works. Combat is shallow and meaningless. There are plenty of other games out there with roles, it's all the same, spawn, kill, die, respawn nothing matters. In DUST with tiers you have to weigh the risk of significant loss every time you respawn.
One way to address the above is to make it financially unfeasible to run PRO 24/7. I think that would help significantly. Also with the lack of ISK in FW, better players are forced to run cheaper suits to support their FW habit. Again, that's an interesting dynamic. A newer player with say 5mill SP can put together a PRO fit and take down a vet with 30mill SP running basic gear to build up his wallet. It can work both ways. That's interesting as well.
I personally really enjoy the challenge of running cheap suits against better-geared opponents.
Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
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Vell0cet
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
766
|
Posted - 2014.01.11 03:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:My plan calls for a fitting bonus to be given to all suits as you raise their required command level thus a player first stepping into the suit cannot equip prototype weapons and modules but as he puts more levels into it he can then afford to continue to upgrade the suits performance.
The idea is not remove player progression at all but to shift its focus onto suit fittig and more extreme focus on making better fits for the playstyle thus fitting and how to fit the suit becomes the overall meta.
A player who grasps the concept early and quickly an empower a suit as easily as a proto suit can by equipping the same exact but weaker which the module's own gulfs between bottom to top are not so massive as the one pronounced in proto suits verses militia due to slot disparity alone. (slots are if you done any math wizardry on how ccp concluded their balance designs are extremely weighted )
With the loss of the proto suits the isk cost on regular suits are going have to adjust to be affordable and common. This means the modules between metas are going to gulfen a bit more to emphasize risk versus reward still matters.
This also cuts down on totally useless skills and empowers players earlier per level they unlock with suit command.
What problem are you trying to solve? Is it closing the gulf between new players and vets? or the gulf between vets wearing good gear vs. vets wearing cheap gear?
The second isn't really a problem and is part of what makes DUST so much fun. As for addressing the first, why wouldn't having an optional game mode restricted to players with less than some SP threshold not be a reasonable solution? Having a "kiddie pool" for noobs to build up SP to the point they can make a reasonably competitive fit seems to solve this problem without destroying the aspect that makes DUST so unique and interesting (this would be separate from the existing Academy since you don't want players learning what buttons do what to be in the same match with players who have 4.9million SP). It wouldn't require a MASSIVE rebalance of everything in the game.
Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
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