DUST Search - If there is a better time to ask for tiercide, it is now

The Robot Devil wrote:

Iron Wolf Saber wrote:

My plan calls for a fitting bonus to be given to all suits as you raise their required command level thus a player first stepping into the suit cannot equip prototype weapons and modules but as he puts more levels into it he can then afford to continue to upgrade the suits performance.

The idea is not remove player progression at all but to shift its focus onto suit fittig and more extreme focus on making better fits for the playstyle thus fitting and how to fit the suit becomes the overall meta.

A player who grasps the concept early and quickly an empower a suit as easily as a proto suit can by equipping the same exact but weaker which the module's own gulfs between bottom to top are not so massive as the one pronounced in proto suits verses militia due to slot disparity alone. (slots are if you done any math wizardry on how ccp concluded their balance designs are extremely weighted )

With the loss of the proto suits the isk cost on regular suits are going have to adjust to be affordable and common. This means the modules between metas are going to gulfen a bit more to emphasize risk versus reward still matters.

This also cuts down on totally useless skills and empowers players earlier per level they unlock with suit command.

If you get rid of proto suits then advanced become the new proto and the same problems are still here until all suits are the same.


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Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11807	Posted - 2014.01.10 05:50:00 - [1] - Quote CPM been nearly screaming with every chance we get. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11810	Posted - 2014.01.10 06:25:00 - [2] - Quote Aero basically got the premise right there are ways to go about it though. A purist tericide would remove ALL meta levels. While this would be neat and players would grow outwards the game would be too flat for most people's liking. So generally there is a knock off version, one of lesser degree. For example the one I am currently advocating would remove basic and advanced frames and suits leaving players with prototype slot layouts as the only suit in each class entry. Then introducing two more suit entries at base classes that creating a 'tech 1' experience in which the suits are slightly skewed towards the roles but are able to fulfill many of them. Then the current tech 2 suits get an additional suit and they're heavily skewed into very specific roles. For example Light Frames under my model would have three types GK. 0 GK. 1 Gk. 2 The slot layout of 0 would suggest high speed, high stealth, or high mobility. Slot layout of Gk. 1 would suggest high utility, the stats and slots can suggest utility, sabotage, intel, while the third suit seems deemingly more worthy of being either a light combat scout or a pilot of some sort or a covert or skirmish. squad leader. but thats the light frames and if any bonuses would support a broad range of modules instead of one or two but the bonus overall is a bit weak. Then with Tech 2 we get specialist suits that are laser focused. A scout suit designed purely for infiltration, gets bonuses for being able to not only cloak but dodge scanners as well and assassinate players with a damage bonus to melee and other short ranged weapons. Its brother suit would be more suited to being a saboteur giving up some speed and attack for ability to set more traps covertly and not get caught doing so. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqHgiF-KXQZXdDdKYjRQT193VDlfbFM5b0FwdlB5Ymc&usp=drive_web#gid=0 while its missing stats or bonuses this is what my model could look like in tree format. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11866	Posted - 2014.01.10 23:59:00 - [3] - Quote Dj grammer wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Lucrezia LeGrand wrote: low genius wrote: people throw that word around. what do you guys think tiericide means? No idea. I'm going to lurk on this page until someone explains it for me. Tiericide means "Kill the tiers" Basically a lot of us believe that a major problem with Dust's infantry combat is how unbalanced the game is between militia, standard, advanced, and proto fits. The idea of tiericide is that it would be better if everything was the same tier, thus there would be no tiers, and instead of spending skill points to move up the tiers you spend skill points to specialize and find your role. Every bonus that you add to your fits would come with an equal negative to balance it out and keep all fits on an even playing field. At least, that's how I think of tiericde. Essentially they, the tiericide parade, are tuning the uniqueness of DUST 514's gameplay into a Call of Duty/Battlefield FPS feel gameplay. When you think about it, this was done to all LAVs and HAVs. Notice there is little to no difference between a soma and a madruger. What should had happen was holding the new players longer in Academy up to 3 million skill points or 100,000 WarPoints. Whatever comes first. Absolutely wrong. A true tetricide would eliminate the entire concept that X item requires Y skill level over Z item's requirement therefore X is better than Z. Under Teiridice, Y skill unlocks both Z and X at the same time, both Z and X are equally effective but Z and X have different approaches to the job it is meant to do under skill decription of Y. In the case of tanks, we'd would train HAV to I, and unlock the Gunnlogi a Light battle tank, then a second tank let's call it the Parashu a bigger heavier slower moving HAV with higher defenses, both HAVs fit the same type of equipment and can even have similar type of fittings even and both can do a wide variety of roles still from glass cannon point defense to front line brawlers, but the two play entirely different because of the bonuses, innate stats and nature of the vehicle itself. Then throw in tech 1 and tech 2 concepts from eve. Both of these Tanks get highly specialized versions, Who knows maybe the Gunnlogis tech 2 cousin is a hover tank. While the Parashu becomes something more akin to a mobile fortress, their tech 1 cousins have far more freedom while the tech 2 versions are stuck with a very specific role they must fit into. There may be more than one contender in each catagory. Ishkone may think the best way to build a mobile fortress is overwhelming and accurate firepower while Ladai belives defense is the best option and Kalakaloina opts for stealth instead. All three fullfill the same roles but all three found different ways to skin the same cat. Now apply this to infantry. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11868	Posted - 2014.01.11 00:14:00 - [4] - Quote Leovarian L Lavitz wrote: Kasote Denzara wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: -snip- I'm not trying to start anything here, but we had something similar to this once, didn't we? The type IIs, I mean. Would you be behind the return of the type IIs? They offered a different sort of flexibility, giving up their sidearms for an equipment slot. There are two type IIs still in the game that I know about, The Skinweave Militia Minmatar medium frame and The Master Recruiter CII Saga CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11868	Posted - 2014.01.11 00:17:00 - [5] - Quote Weapons can get subjected though lets say they brought in weapon customization. For example we bring in weapon customization and trim all the extra variants out and let players design thier own within limits. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11874	Posted - 2014.01.11 00:40:00 - [6] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Tiericide would destroy the risk vs. ISK mechanism which is DUST's biggest redeeming quality. It would turn DUST into a pathetic clone of PS2. We can fix the NPE by creating an optional 2nd tier academy battle mode available to all players with less than x SP (maybe around 2 -5 million SP). I usually don't wear my proto suit in most pub matches, but sometimes I feel compelled to pull it out. Making those kinds of decisions are why I play DUST. It's incredibly satisfying to take out a proto suit while wearing a cheap fit. F*ck tiericide. Shift the costs to the suits and weapons that is lost on the suits. Make certain suit classes slightly more pronounced in prices too for example there would be a large multiplier of a difference between tech 1 suits and their tech 2 cousins like 10x more maybe? Gallente had 7 frigates, 3 in teir 1 2 in teir 2 and 2 in teir 3 and teir 3 where not always the best even though they had the highest skill requirement (lvl 3) and nobody ever used tier 1s despite being the most cheapest because it was riskier to get caught dead in those ships. Post Teiricide 7 Frigates, all the similar mineral price. All useful all being used much more often now a days Also your idea would not work in the academy Vell0cet, it has yet to work, and I know expanding a second round of battles it would pronounce how wrong your idea is. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11885	Posted - 2014.01.11 03:28:00 - [7] - Quote My plan calls for a fitting bonus to be given to all suits as you raise their required command level thus a player first stepping into the suit cannot equip prototype weapons and modules but as he puts more levels into it he can then afford to continue to upgrade the suits performance. The idea is not remove player progression at all but to shift its focus onto suit fittig and more extreme focus on making better fits for the playstyle thus fitting and how to fit the suit becomes the overall meta. A player who grasps the concept early and quickly an empower a suit as easily as a proto suit can by equipping the same exact but weaker which the module's own gulfs between bottom to top are not so massive as the one pronounced in proto suits verses militia due to slot disparity alone. (slots are if you done any math wizardry on how ccp concluded their balance designs are extremely weighted ) With the loss of the proto suits the isk cost on regular suits are going have to adjust to be affordable and common. This means the modules between metas are going to gulfen a bit more to emphasize risk versus reward still matters. This also cuts down on totally useless skills and empowers players earlier per level they unlock with suit command. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11898	Posted - 2014.01.11 05:40:00 - [8] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: My plan calls for a fitting bonus to be given to all suits as you raise their required command level thus a player first stepping into the suit cannot equip prototype weapons and modules but as he puts more levels into it he can then afford to continue to upgrade the suits performance. The idea is not remove player progression at all but to shift its focus onto suit fittig and more extreme focus on making better fits for the playstyle thus fitting and how to fit the suit becomes the overall meta. A player who grasps the concept early and quickly an empower a suit as easily as a proto suit can by equipping the same exact but weaker which the module's own gulfs between bottom to top are not so massive as the one pronounced in proto suits verses militia due to slot disparity alone. (slots are if you done any math wizardry on how ccp concluded their balance designs are extremely weighted ) With the loss of the proto suits the isk cost on regular suits are going have to adjust to be affordable and common. This means the modules between metas are going to gulfen a bit more to emphasize risk versus reward still matters. This also cuts down on totally useless skills and empowers players earlier per level they unlock with suit command. If you get rid of proto suits then advanced become the new proto and the same problems are still here until all suits are the same. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqHgiF-KXQZXdDdKYjRQT193VDlfbFM5b0FwdlB5Ymc&usp=drive_web#gid=0 Read this chart again and try to understand it then because you're talking out of your imagination. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11901	Posted - 2014.01.11 06:38:00 - [9] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: I am confused then, I see suits differently than almost everyone else in the world evidently. I know this isn't EVE but they did three things perfect. The ablity to go anywhere, the economy and the ship bonuses we have now. Dust does none of these things and it sucks. We have the exact same ideas about needs to be done and I just don't understand how you describe it. The end result is almost the same. What I am calling tiers are basically the same things you are callling tec. I am not worried about your ideas like I am others. New players hops into a new suit for the first time. He wont have access nor the ability to fit the best gear on that suit he first unlocked. Over time, he will gain that ability through skill training, he will learn how to fit it better and soon not only can he go up against a vet, he is a vet now. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11916	Posted - 2014.01.11 17:18:00 - [10] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: Would modules remain tiered? How would the fitting of these be scaled with leveling up your suit? There are two ways going about this. Make the suit more capable of fitting as it skills up or Eve does this by making modules of the higher (and lower) tiers able to fit but also higher teir equipment in eve typically are very very expensive (officer modules for example costs well over 10x cost of the ship and the ship itself is far more than the average suit by an order of 10-20x) My plan has a bit of both. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11961	Posted - 2014.01.12 02:48:00 - [11] - Quote Thing is though shooter players are capable to be more in tune with knowing enemy types. If especially if the enemy arch type is strong enough in traits to warrant a true threat on a vector that the shooter player may not be able to deal with. Teiricide can accomplish this goal as well making the game more pronounced and defined in many classes and range of abilities. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11968	Posted - 2014.01.12 05:09:00 - [12] - Quote XofCitoac wrote: look... TIERICIDE isnt the answer... the MOST LOGICAL action is to reimplement the BATTLE MODES (MLT-STD / MLT-ADV / MLT-PRO) i know it failed before, but it was due to UNDERPOPULOUS of the CLOSED BETA ... DO THIS and WATCH the numbers increase in the playerbase... STOP listening to the BORED NO-LIFER VETS, that are bored because they ran all the cannon fodder off... if DUST 514 is to have longevity THIS is the best option. This has yet to work. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 11994	Posted - 2014.01.12 18:58:00 - [13] - Quote Teiricide will increase variety when done right while severely cutting down on balance noise, its hard to balance things everyone does not use proto, this is reason why there is a balance lag and its taking as much as 6 months to nerf or buff anything. It will also make the game more competitive as there is far less reliance on having 2-6 modules over a player who may be more skilled than the prototype player hiding behind that many more modules. Case in point scouts. Lamenting for 9 months and counting. Logistics 8 months in the wrong role. Heavies suffering for about 6 months. Assault 8 months. If the game continues its current route. There will be over 120 suits but only 24 ways to play. This is of course excluding aurum suits which brought in gives us 240 suits but only still 24 ways to play. Eve online has 560 extended ships and 560 ways to play. Special ships cut out even we're still at 6+1 unique frigates per race (rookie) 1 Shuttle 2 Destroyers 5 Cruisers 3 battlecruisers 3 industrials 1 freighter 3 battleships 2 carriers 1 dread 1 titan and each one of these tech 1 ships play differently from each other and in many cases kick the utter crap out of tech 2 in many areas. In dust our 'tech 1' can't hold a candle to a 'tech 2' Kill variety? when was the last time you saw a prototype medium frame, (not assault or logistics, base)? Uprising 1.0 was the last time I saw one before they patched it out of obscurity. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked