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I-Shayz-I
I-----I
1758
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Posted - 2013.12.29 06:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
For those that don't know, the laser rifle used to be annoyingly effective because of a typo.
but now it seems like no one ever uses it because of how ineffective it is. I want to discuss some possible changes that could be made to the weapon in order to make it more effective without changing its damage output.
I have a few possible ideas:
1. Remove the steep damage dropoff The gradual buildup to full damage for the laser works well, but it needs to be able to deal damage at long distances. If the rail rifle gets to do full damage until its optimal, then have a gradual dropoff in damage, then so should the laser rifle. Besides, it's a freaking laser.
By doing this, the weapon will then still be effective up to 100+ meters away without the enemy being able to take two steps and be outside your optimal.
2. Increase heat buildup for better variants. Right now, the only thing that the better laser rifles do is let you fire for longer without overheating. The only way this increases damage output compared to the standard laser rifle is if you hold down the button past where the std would overheat. The problem is that this overheat point is only 20 more than the std, which makes the prototype variant almost worthless.
Instead, the better variants should heat up quicker, but still overheat at the same point. This would increase damage potential for the better variants, and give you a reason to skill into them.
3. Remove the "deals more damage the longer you hold the trigger" and replace it with "deals more damage the closer you are to overheating". This gives a more "risk vs reward" kind of scenario with the laser rifle. If you skillfully keep the heat level as high as possible, you risk overheating, but you are then able to kill faster.
Opinions? If you agree with one or the other, or have your own ideas, leave them in a reply. I really want to see the laser rifle being used more, but until it has some proper mechanics that will never happen :/
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Martyr Saboteur
Amarrtyrs
69
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Posted - 2013.12.29 07:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
I think pushing its effective range out to 65-110m and making the overheat damage NOT increase for the better tiers would be a good start. Maybe even give an increase to magazine size and RoF to give it a higher max damage threshhold if that isn't enough.
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQTSTALLION... I AM THE STALLION
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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic
467
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Posted - 2013.12.29 07:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
I like these ideas.
My question is what should optimal range and maximum range be? You could just extend out the optimal like Martyr says, or you could do a mix of both.
I'm iffy on the damage near overheat but I'd have to see it in action. Scared that you could preheat it, like you do now, get it near overheat then just flutter the trigger every so often to keep it there and insta kill everyone with the preheated stream. I'm not thinking that will take skill...a modded controller could do this effortlessly. |
Aqil Aegivan
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
248
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Posted - 2013.12.29 07:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
Remove reloading and charges from the LR and adjust the overheat mechanics to balance it (for example, heat could build quickly and decrease slowly and instead of reloading you flush excess heat).
Make it part of Amarr laser weapons that they are self sufficient, omitting the need for Nanohives to do anything other than rep armour. |
Joel II X
Dah Gods O Bacon
382
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Posted - 2013.12.29 07:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
Yes. |
Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic
467
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Posted - 2013.12.29 07:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
Aqil Aegivan wrote:Remove reloading and charges from the LR and adjust the overheat mechanics to balance it (for example, heat could build quickly and decrease slowly and instead of reloading you flush excess heat).
Make it part of Amarr laser weapons that they are self sufficient, omitting the need for Nanohives to do anything other than rep armour.
You know this is an interesting idea. I wanted to scream "NO" because needing no ammo or reload is insanity...I mean it MUST use something right?
But if you left it nearly in the current state but gave the unlimited ammo no reload thing it would become such an interesting niche weapon. |
Talryn Vilneram
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
113
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Posted - 2013.12.29 07:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
They are the worst rifles at short range. Why not make them the longest range Rifles to compensate? Rail rifles spit on laser rifles right now. It should be that if I can get out of his optimal I would likely win. |
Martyr Saboteur
Amarrtyrs
70
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Posted - 2013.12.29 07:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
Talryn Vilneram wrote:They are the worst rifles at short range. Why not make them the longest range Rifles to compensate? Rail rifles spit on laser rifles right now. It should be that if I can get out of his optimal I would likely win.
This is what you said.
Talryn Vilneram wrote:They are the worst weapons at short range. Why not make them the best at long range to compensate? The other rifles spit on laser rifles right now. It should be that if I can get out of their optimal I would likely win. This is equally true.
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQTSTALLION... I AM THE STALLION
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Aqil Aegivan
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
248
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Posted - 2013.12.29 07:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
Galvan Nized wrote:Aqil Aegivan wrote:Remove reloading and charges from the LR and adjust the overheat mechanics to balance it (for example, heat could build quickly and decrease slowly and instead of reloading you flush excess heat).
Make it part of Amarr laser weapons that they are self sufficient, omitting the need for Nanohives to do anything other than rep armour. You know this is an interesting idea. I wanted to scream "NO" because needing no ammo or reload is insanity...I mean it MUST use something right? But if you left it nearly in the current state but gave the unlimited ammo no reload thing it would become such an interesting niche weapon.
Yeah, easy to do wrong and make it OP but it feels like the LR should be one of those more interesting mechanics weapons rather than the "beam rifle". |
8213
BIG BAD W0LVES
1273
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Posted - 2013.12.29 07:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
The laser has been pretty much the outcasted step child of the Light Weapon division for the simple reason its design doesn't match the dev's intent to have a quicker TTK. The faster TTK that they want (to attract and retain new crossover players) is a huge change to one the principles of the game.
Before, all a user had to do was wave it over you and you insta-popped. It's TTK was stupidly out of balance. But, this was mostly a mistake in the programming.
Now, you have to sustain good aim for 1-3 seconds. Because of the fact that you can "spray" it makes it hard to have any faster DPS. Yes, you can't hold it down for long, but you still have 5 seconds before it blows up in your face. That's a long time for a gun to be shooting. It rewards those who have good tracking skills, and good initial aim. When that LR sticks to you and you can't get to cover. You're jumping diving, and doing whatever it takes to break that beam. Because before you know it, you're melted.
I think it's fine right now. Its a long range weapon that punishes players for being in the open. I don't think it should have any damage dropoff, as it is a laser beam. Yes, that means technically a sniper could use it at 500m, but they wouldn't because there is no scope on the LR.
Its TTK is poor, when put up against a RR or SCR. But it's a "second choice" weapon I think. Why would you use a LR when a RR can probably do it better? Plus, the RR can be used for CQC, the LR simply can't.
My idea has always been: No damage drop-off ACOG sight 1.5x zoom 4x headshot multiplier (400%) Keep everything else the same
Oh, and make initial damage more for Advanced and Prototype versions.
Fish in a bucket!
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Aizen Intiki
Hell's Gate Inc
608
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Posted - 2013.12.29 07:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
I was thinking give it:
1: Larger optimal
2: slower overeat
3: slightly larger mag
4: damage higher the closer to overheat
Would do it.
"Hello, world!" lol, sounds like something a whore lover would say
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Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance
745
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Posted - 2013.12.29 07:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:How should we fix the laser rifle?
Like this:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=124564&find=unread
{:)}{3GÇó>
"I came here to chew bubblegum and kick @$$, and I'm all out of bubblegum."
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trooper7041
Forsaken Immortals Top Men.
36
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Posted - 2013.12.29 09:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Great post. Again, I'm a strong supporter of lessening the damage drop off.
As I understand, the LR is supposed to be a niche rifle. However, I fail to see in which particular area it excels at. It used to be a great ranged weapon, but now with the new RR, CR, and the SR all can easily take out a LR. Just a few steps backwards or even forwards gives it just enough advantage making the LR useless.
For a skilled player with a LR to kill another skilled player too much criteria has to be met for the LR to be successful.
- Enemy can not be in cover - Must be at optimal range with a margin of error of about 5-10m - Enemy must be a shield tanker to meet the TTK CCP is aiming for
The LR already has so many cons to using it; low reload speed, low clip size (with heat build up, you can only really kill two before needing to reload), damage feedback, overheat delay, not effective AT ALL at CQC (even the sniper rifle can own at CQC).
I would be fine if CCP were to lower the damage output, and increase the range. It's a laser. Even if it doesn't fit in with the EVE lore, it should at least fit the niche of being a long ranged weapon. Let newberries train their aim and figure out their roles with this weapon before grabbing a assault rifle and jumping into the fire.
Please give just a simple "we will look into it." in this thread CCP. You can even add a SOON tm. :)
Us LR users just want to know we aren't forgotten. |
Amarok Noir
Altyr Initiative
6
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Posted - 2013.12.29 10:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
My idea has always been: No damage drop-off ACOG sight 1.5x zoom 4x headshot multiplier (400%) Keep everything else the same
Oh, and make initial damage more for Advanced and Prototype versions.[/quote]
I'm for the increase of heat build up idea and for an ACOG sight1.5x with a REAL DOT, not something like this " . " CCP dev team just took the scrambler rifle's scope and put it on the laser rifle with no changes (a little lazy in my opinion). Why not use a practical dot which will ease the targeting of an enemy when aiming down the sight, something like these ones:
1. \ ^ / 2. [ -ñ ] 3. { v } ---> (this one will be good for a sustained fire on the head) 4. (- -¦ -) 5. -| _'_ |- ---> (I keep this one for fast enemies, Minmatar assault and scouts)
With a simple " . " it's too hard to follow a moving target with the beam, I'm obliged to fire with the hipfire cross, this one " o " which is more effective than ADS. Come on CCP, I just showed 5 dots which are good for the scope, show us that you guys can make a real efficient one. By the way, the previous iron sight was great on the laser rifle. |
Echoist
Fenrir's Wolves Zero-Day
105
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Posted - 2013.12.29 10:27:00 -
[15] - Quote
What if instead of "ammo" you replaced it with batteries? For example you get a total of five battery cartridges the batteries them selves have infinite ammo due to the suit suppling it with energy but if you were to over heat you would have to switch out that battery (reload). This would still keep the idea of ammo, but put more focus on not overheating and losing your battery supply.
Noobasaures: "Rawr"
Ex-Laser Rifle Specialist, fuck you CCP.
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Martyr Saboteur
Amarrtyrs
73
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Posted - 2013.12.29 10:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Amarok Noir wrote:
I'm for the increase of heat build up idea and for an ACOG sight1.5x with a REAL DOT, not something like this " . " CCP dev team just took the scrambler rifle's scope and put it on the laser rifle with no changes (a little lazy in my opinion). Why not use a practical dot which will ease the targeting of an enemy when aiming down the sight, something like these ones:
1. \ ^ / 2. [ -ñ ] 3. { v } ---> (this one will be good for a sustained fire on the head) 4. (- -¦ -) 5. -| _'_ |- ---> (I keep this one for fast enemies, Minmatar assault and scouts)
With a simple " . " it's too hard to follow a moving target with the beam, I'm obliged to fire with the hipfire cross, this one " o " which is more effective than ADS. Come on CCP, I just showed 5 dots which are good for the scope, show us that you guys can make a real efficient one. By the way, the previous iron sight was great on the laser rifle.
I've always liked this one:
( . ' . )
It leaves an empty area for easy target acquisition, and the center of the sight is almost natural to keep mind of. Its almost as if your brain naturally triangulates and there is an invisible dot there.
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQTSTALLION... I AM THE STALLION
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Amarok Noir
Altyr Initiative
6
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Posted - 2013.12.29 10:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
Martyr Saboteur wrote:[quote=Amarok Noir]
( . ' . )
It leaves an empty area for easy target acquisition, and the center of the sight is almost natural to keep mind of. Its almost as if your brain naturally triangulates and there is an invisible dot there.
Yes, something simple yet effective. Like you said, you will naturally triangulate and no need for a cumbersome center dot. |
MINA Longstrike
2Shitz 1Giggle
187
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Posted - 2013.12.29 11:38:00 -
[18] - Quote
I use the LR almost exclusively on my alt and its biggest problems are that: A) it's built for the assault suit but its meant for a defensive role - unless I'm already in a busing I can't really 'assault' with one B) it functions more like a long range sidearm in that it *rarely* gets the ability to effectively engage multiple targets, generally I get to kill on person then I *must* reload (due to the sustained fire damage formula) C) it suffers badly from needing to warm up and people tucking into cover. D) the ammo use on the weapon is absolutely insane due to how it's damage formula functions. E) feedback damage on overheat punishes the weapon user for increasing the tier of the weapon they use and additionally it doesn't provide any meaningful risk vs reward system. F) the 'effective range' of this weapon has way too small of a window of use, it either needs to be shortened allowing us to function closer to opponents or lengthened allowing us to perform in a slightly wider area.
Now don't get me wrong with the current damage formula the amarr assault suit does allow one to milk a *lot* of extra damage out of the weapon (17dmg + 0.6*shots fired consecutively which takes you from 53 - 65 dmg on each of those last 20 shots *before* dmg mods and proficiency), but it doesn't really justify a lot of the issues the weapon currently has.
My solution? 1) tie the buildup in damage to the buildup in heat 2) drastically reduce ammo consumption 3) increase base damage on the LR greatly (say to about 50 with heat providing consistent bonuses to damage as heat builds) 4) increase the heat buildup on the weapon so as to allow ~ 12 shots fired before overheating at say 4-6 seconds (if we're going to stay long range) 5) make some improvements to window of effective range. 6) make weapon cooldown & suit bonuses a noticeable factor in trigger feathering for optimal damage output. 7) reduce battery size to prevent a suit or two making large swathes of ground impassable (certain bridges etc). 8) reduce feedback damage across tiers to 175/150/125
Now I don't claim that the numbers or even the ideas are all there and all sound but - this should ease the issues of long ttk especially scenarios where people are ducking out of cover and firing a few rail rifle rounds at you then ducking back in as your laser has just warmed up enough to actually cut through their shields leaving you unsatisfied and with little recourse. it should also provide a large incentive to play the risk vs reward game with assault bonuses making weapon seizes much less likely and making the LR user a lot less of a sitting duck that needs to be in the open or on a high tower to be effective.
Its not perfect but I think it is a decent 'fix' and I'm already aware that numbers are likely wildly off.
Please forgive spelling mistakes, autocorrect on phones is stupid. |
Niuvo
NECROM0NGERS Covert Intervention
945
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Posted - 2013.12.29 11:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
The longer you laze targets the more damage it deals. good thread, we need to fix the laser. |
Bleeding Knight
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
76
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Posted - 2013.12.29 12:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
Argh, It be fine you swashbucklers if anything nerf that **** and buff the rail rifle. It's almost embarrassing killing those rail rifle with my laser ARGH.
Or get good mate-ies. Argh. |
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Beld Errmon
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
1185
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Posted - 2013.12.29 12:34:00 -
[21] - Quote
Give it a bit more dmg and a bit more range, either remove the close range penalty or make it a bit more forgiving, it should have a much better engagement window, keeping in mind that no other weapons in the game are restricted in this way, and plenty others out dps and out range it. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1450
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Posted - 2013.12.29 12:39:00 -
[22] - Quote
It should also have longer range than. Any other gun except the sniper rifle. |
Racro 01 Arifistan
501st Knights of Leanbox INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS
92
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Posted - 2013.12.29 12:46:00 -
[23] - Quote
i love useing my viziam laser but as soon as its 50m opr below there is **** all damage wichis fair enough but once the range is past about 80-90m there is also **** all. extending range from 70-110 or 120 would make this an effective weapon for forcing the enemy to remain behind cover. and have slight damage increase between levels. 17 for standar 19 for adv and 21 for proto. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7652
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Posted - 2013.12.29 13:21:00 -
[24] - Quote
I have a plan to Rebuild it https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=127171&find=unread
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:1.7 is here, the AR and SCR got a range buff, and the rail rifle is now the king of ranged combat aside from the sniper rifle. The laser rifle has lost its already questionable niche.
Problems with the laser rifle
Low damage up close, then it gets good, then it gets crappy again. The band of effective range on the laser beam is only 66-88 meters, that's only a 23 meter effective range. Basically this weapon is only good for only a specific 23 meters, otherwise it sucks. Its also just counter-intuitive that a gun would do less damage up close; sure you can say its because of the focus on the laser's lenses, but it makes no sense why the lenses wouldn't already be focused.
Even when in its optimal or effective range, the rail rifles can still dominate the laser rifle users with their range. A rail rifle's range can be from 85 to 102 meters depending on the tier. An advanced or prototype rail rifle has the range advantage over a laser rifle. Unlike the laser rifle, the rail rifle doesn't suddenly start doing less damage at close ranges.
Overheat damage increments with tier. This is just terrible, higher tier weapons are suppose to be better than their lower tier predecessors, not just better in some ways but worse in some ways. Overheat damage needs to be the same for all tiers, or should get lower as the tier increases.
Solutions Make the optimal range start from 0 meters like any other gun. This will make the laser rifle actually not worthless in close range, and allow it to be useful for more than just a short 23 meters of distance. You may be thinking "but the laser rifle is meant to be for mid-long range", but so is the sniper rifle, but shots do full damage if you can hit the target at close range. The base damage can also be lowered if needed.
Obviously the range thing would be a huge buff, and might make the laser rifle OP. To balance it, damage buildup should not be based on how long the laser has fired, but how long it has been hitting the target. The longer you hit the target, the more damage should increase. The heat buildup on the target should decrease slowly when the laser stops hitting it, but should not automatically reset. It will reward precise aiming skill, and also makes sense because the laser should be heating up the enemy's from continuous fire.
Standardize overheat feedback damage, or reduce the feedback damage as the tier increases. Higher tier weapons should not perform worse in any way to their standard counterparts.
Save the laser rifle.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Shadow Archeus
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
208
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Posted - 2013.12.29 14:19:00 -
[25] - Quote
Its in need of a serious buff........maybe a damage buff and increase the size of its optimal to 60-120 |
Akdhar Saif
Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic
122
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Posted - 2013.12.29 15:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
A range increase and possibly a scope with some magnification would IMO make it awesome. I still use in on my main skirmish suit. |
Vell0cet
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
734
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Posted - 2013.12.29 16:07:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'm reading a lot of pretty radical proposals that want to fundamentally alter the LR's core mechanics. I think this is a terrible idea. The LR is a phenomenally fun weapon (especially in 1.4-1.5) that no other game has, let's not get rid of that. The LR has many MAJOR inherent downsides: 1. Most importantly, it broadcasts your position to most of the map. 2. It takes time to kill something 3. Because of 1 and 2 you're forced to put yourself out of cover for significant periods of time with a "snipe me" sign on your back. 4. It's horrible at close range 5. Because you're vulnerable up close and most people know where you are, you're incredibly vulnerable to tactics where people ambush you (heavies in LAV's, shotgun scouts, etc). 6. Because it takes time to heat up, you're pretty much forced to chew through crazy amounts of ammo, making nanohives pretty mandatory. 7. Requires Amarr Assault 5 to truly shine, and really should only be fitted on Amarr assault suits. 8. Because of 6 & 7 the spectrum of good LR fits is incredibly narrow. 9. It's strong vs. shields and weak vs. armor, and armor tanking is preferable due to the ability to get more EHP out of it.
Those are some pretty serious drawbacks, but I really don't have a problem with any of them. They're what makes the LR so fun and interesting to use. The LR used to have the longest range (excluding snipers) to compensate and it was pretty reasonably balanced in 1.4-1.5. With the 1.6 HD fix, the LR's reasonably balanced TTK was obliterated by the game-breakingly short TTK of the rifles. I used to be able to 1v1 any AR/SR user and melt them if I was near my max optimal. This was no-longer the case after 1.6. With the latest changes in 1.7, the LR is now never the best weapon in any situation. There is never a situation where a LR would be preferred to a RR. It is currently a niche weapon without a niche (similar to swarms).
The fix isn't to change things that are central to what makes the LR unique, fun and interesting; it's to give the LR its niche back. Extend the optimal range to 120m, give it ADS zoom proportional to the range increase, and nerf the TTK on racial ARs. Increasing the clip size so you could overheat twice before reloading would be a convenience bonus, but less important than the other changes.
Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
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Spademan
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
461
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Posted - 2013.12.29 16:34:00 -
[28] - Quote
Increase the range a bunch, sniper rifle level, maybe a bit shorter. Pump up the damage tenfold. Increase the overheat by similar number.
BAM! One Amarrian sniping laser rifle.
I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special.
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