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Kain Spero
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2333
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Posted - 2013.12.29 01:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
+1 to the OP
There really needs to be something that allows the fights to be directed from Eve and those pilots need to at least have the option to chose who they have fight. The mic bugs in team chat need to be fixed as well. It makes organized ops like this even more difficult. While the geography in Dust may not seem important the tools need to be in place to allow the importance of the geography to emerge.
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Kain Spero
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2344
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Posted - 2013.12.30 16:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
A lot of really good thoughts and feedback.
I couldn't have asked for more to come out of this, so a huge thanks to the client that sponsored the operation. Also big thanks to everyone who participated and helped me pull it together. I just wish the outcome could have been more "look at what can be done!" than "look at all the gaps still in the system."
Unfortunately , until there are changes made, these kind of organized operations fail the return on investment test from both an Eve standpoint and Dust standpoint. The time and resources required to execute things like this doesn't come anywhere near the beneficial results.
The key thing is that players DO want to organize and the DO want to see the results of their efforts. Changes and iterations have to come sooner rather than later as well. I have to agree with some of the earlier statements that ISK needs to be put back in the FW matches until the player market comes.
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Kain Spero
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2347
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Posted - 2013.12.30 17:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:
Well, how will team deploy be implemented? If there's team deploy without matchmaking against other teams, 16 organized players showing up against randoms, or even squads of 6 means the battle is lost before it started. In that sense why even bother allowing players from any other corp in FW besides the big ones? Hopefully Scotty will pit teams against each other.
I understand the idea of choosing selecting which contracts to take, but OP tends to have forgotten that contracts in its current form in gallente caldari war for example are also generated by Gallente capsuleers.
There shouldn't be an isk payout, the loyalty store already makes items cheap. If they can't spalsh out 8K isk for a proto suit, well that's their own problem.
FW could use some work, but don't just hand the games in it over to the who's who of pubstompers just because their favored race as a whole are getting their butts kicked.
We already queue up to two teams of players every night for the "crappy Amarr" in hopes that there will be a good fight on the other side. Sometimes we end up against organized teams and it's a blast and other times we end up against randoms which isn't quite as fun but has it's own entertainment value.
A team deploy system would have to allow each faction at least the chance of fielding an organized team to combat another
The OP didn't forget at all that plexing does have an impact on where battles spawn, but it's hardly reliable. Outside of RP and the meta I could could care less who is winning or loosing. What matters is whether or not the system works and it is currently far from being where it needs to be.
As for people not having the ISK to throw as this suit or that you really have to look at the current economic dynamics. The people in the best position right now to play FW are those that were successful when the golden age of PC hit or closed beta players that had huge stacks of loot converted into ISK. Right now the system punishes those that aren't farming passive ISK in PC and forces them to fight for this faction or that in order to chase gear. Even then the payouts for FW are so anemic that all but the most efficient players are left with nothing but FW being a bad investment.
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Kain Spero
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2349
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Posted - 2013.12.30 17:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
Good teams smashing randoms is already something that takes place in FW and likely will never go away.
Team deploy wouldn't be something to replace how FW currently plays out (the pubs of FW if you will) but be something that supplements it and focuses the organized groups into another layer of FW that has a deeper connection and working with the Eve side.
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Kain Spero
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2350
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Posted - 2013.12.30 17:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote: This is part of the reason why team deploy will take a bit of time to get right. We first need to be able to build the team, but then matching that team into a battle that is fun and balanced without waiting an eternity and still allowing factions to push is trickier than it sounds.
For me this is one of the reasons a formal team deploy would have to be contract based with the contracts made Eve side. A milita uses LP/ISK to set a contract for a system that can be set to private or public and then the opposing faction gets the option to respond by contracting out to a specific group or have it become a public contract if they don't feel the need to hire someone to counter the other team.
As Beers put it team deploy has to be part of a system and can't just get thrown into FW with no substance behind it.
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Kain Spero
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Posted - 2013.12.30 17:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
Free Beers wrote: Kane i think dust players should be able to choose systems to fight on with out eve nerds. However there need to be a way for public and private contracts for eve piilots to choose a system. We should be able to see the highlighted system on the star map and if we choose to fight or defend the rewards should be greater
There needs to be choice in the system but greater rewards for WORKING WITH eve nerds
Yeah, I agree that a hybrid system is generally the best way to go. I just don't want the problems of PC to come to roost in FW and have all of the logistics and the headaches that go with it, and then have no way for the logistical burden to be offloaded at least between the two player bases.
I think you right though that it all has to be reinforced via rewards. To me the biggest problem isn't scrubs fighting against a full team, but players pulling a Shad and lining up to intentionally loose matches to get the desired outcome.
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Kain Spero
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2354
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Posted - 2013.12.30 18:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote: Yep, this is why the old corp contracts had to go.
Still wish the system could have been iterated on rather than scrapped. I do think that in the meantime though putting ISK back in the FW system should be a good step in the right direction.
This is especially true with team deploy being something that would potentially take a lot of bandwidth and need to be done well and have all the bases covered. The same goes for a player market as well. A lot of the issues in Dust seem to come down to all the parts of a system not being in place when a feature is launched. No where is the curse of dependencies more apparent than in PC though.
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Kain Spero
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2358
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Posted - 2013.12.30 18:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
RKKR wrote:BMSTUBBY wrote:We have a squad finder mechanic already right? Why not have a Team Deploy mechanic in place for the randoms that do not want to get proto stomped in FW?
Any random can then jump into a team that has spots open.
Just a thought. Because 90% of the randoms have no idea what they are doing or did you never wondered why they all like to hack red LAVS to drive around with (LAVs must be so exotic to them as they haven't found the right-Pad-arrow yet) and just look at that red letter 'A' doing nothing?
Some days I feel like implementing a "Not Green Shoot It" policy for the FW matches I'm in.
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Kain Spero
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Posted - 2013.12.30 19:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
The deal is the current system does allow you to reliably deploy up 16 people to faction warfare. The problem is that the where and enabling the system to easily allow fights against other full teams for a larger purpose just isn't quite there. Just having team deploy without any deeper doesn't really do anything.
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Kain Spero
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Posted - 2013.12.30 19:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
BMSTUBBY wrote:Kain Spero wrote:The deal is the current system does allow you to reliably deploy up 16 people to faction warfare. The problem is that the where and enabling the system to easily allow fights against other full teams for a larger purpose just isn't quite there. Just having team deploy without any deeper doesn't really do anything. If this is the reason why team deploy is being held up then I find that sad. Give us team deploy and allow us to team up with our own corp and then fix the where and why. Give us a team finder like we have a squad finder so that if we do not have a team we can at least try and find one. I understand the end game of the where and why and that is the one reason why I have played this game this long. I have been waiting for the where and the why, but if the where and the why is holding up team deploy then that is just bad.
If all you want is to fight with 16 people in your own corp on one side in a FW match you can do that already. If that is all you think team deploy is then the feature for you is live already. Log in, organize your coms, and enjoy.
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Kain Spero
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2359
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Posted - 2013.12.30 21:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
BMSTUBBY wrote: No it is not, that is Q syncing. I want Team/Clan Deploy, which allows a team/clan to enter a queue as one group. Not this Q sync BS.
You are right that it does take some effort to sync, but since we have some semblance of team deploy I would say the most pressing need is to first add ISK to the current LP payouts. If FW withers and dies in terms of it's PCU then that doesn't really help anyone.
Second is the balance of defense and attacking because right now it's just plain screwed up and that effects everyone whether you are solo or synching.
Third, their needs to be a sensible way for Dusters to choose where they fight.
Fourth, Eve needs to be able to choose which systems to fight in (I would make the third and forth happen at the same time).
Last in this progression of awesomeness would be Eve being able to make contracts to Dust that are both public and private.
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Kain Spero
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2366
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Posted - 2013.12.31 14:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
BMSTUBBY wrote:Kain Spero wrote:BMSTUBBY wrote: No it is not, that is Q syncing. I want Team/Clan Deploy, which allows a team/clan to enter a queue as one group. Not this Q sync BS.
You are right that it does take some effort to sync, but since we have some semblance of team deploy I would say the most pressing need is to first add ISK to the current LP payouts. If FW withers and dies in terms of it's PCU then that doesn't really help anyone. Second is the balance of defense and attacking because right now it's just plain screwed up and that effects everyone whether you are solo or synching. Third, their needs to be a sensible way for Dusters to choose where they fight. Fourth, Eve needs to be able to choose which systems to fight in (I would make the third and forth happen at the same time). Last in this progression of awesomeness would be Eve being able to make contracts to Dust that are both public and private. So yeah okay when you put it like that sure I agree. But how long will we get all of the above? SoonGäó? It still would be nice to have a team deploy option now though .
Team deploy would be nice, but unfortunately it wouldn't be a magic bullet and would leave many broken aspects of FW in place. In terms of the when for the above, I think the community is going to have to keep pushing the issue until it is addressed by CCP. It is great that CCP acknowledges the problem, but until it is actually something that is in the pipe and set to be released then there really is no guarantee.
Of these 5 things the first two need to be implemented ASAP. The other parts of this are going to have to be vetted thoroughly and implemented in a COMPLETE fashion. The time for half features really needs to end. In all honestly FW is much more fertile ground for getting players the team fights we all strive for than PC ever could in it's current half-finished form.
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Kain Spero
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2374
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Posted - 2014.01.02 15:15:00 -
[13] - Quote
Evicer wrote:Id also like to add that the EVE player be able to decide which squad lead he/she does the OB FOR if ti has not been already mentioned in the thread.Why this isnt implemented is beyond me. Seeing team squad leads call in OB"s to no effect either from lack of skill,lack of scan , on purpose , or because they suffer from premature ejaculation.Is idiotic...
Some of us Dust players have made friends with EVE pilots that will do these OB"S for us.Those of us have had to make connections, create channels, build relations with these individuals.Not only that the EVE player has to get to the battle in time may be snuck up on while doing the OB and could loose there ship .Risking there ship all so a some 35 wp,16th place, negative KDR, redline sniper can call in the OB to nowhere.
Fail mechanic = fail
This is already in the game. When an OB request goes in the Eve pilot sees the name of the squad leader. The eve player then decides which name to choose if there are multiple requests.
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Kain Spero
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Posted - 2014.01.02 15:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
SirManBoy wrote: Sorry, but we have very different opinions about its reliability. I played MAG for years and I demand a mechanic that works as flawlessly as MAG's clan deploy system. It needs to be something that integrates with the current squad finder system and allows deploys into whatever game mode the team leader chooses. No tricks, no Qsyncs.
Team deploy has absolutely no place outside of Faction Warfare and Planetary Conquest. Putting Team Deploy in high sec pubs would probably be one of the absolute worst things you could possibly do.
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Kain Spero
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Posted - 2014.01.02 16:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:Let PC burn, close the broken faucet down and focus on FW.
The only problem I see with this course of action is that the farmers will get to keep their dirty lucre and those who didn't participate in the Blueberry Muffin circlejerk with be locked out of the ranks of being stupid rich like the farmers.
In the interest of the longterm health of Dust, I'd suggest CCP reclaims the Isk distributed thus far via PC. Yes, I understand that this may drive many to ragequit Dust though I honestly feel it it the best thing that can be done currently to ensure the longterm health of Dust and the future player market.
The players who have participated in Planetary Conquest have done nothing wrong in doing so. They played the game and used the rules set up by CCP to put themselves in the best position possible. The footprints are in the sandbox already and the ISK is in the system.
Even if PC were to be shut off the fairest course of action would be for CCP to sell off the clones at whatever the Genolution purchase price was at that time and refund the cost of any clone pack attacks in process.
Back on topic though the fact that without a player market faction warfare will just wither on the vine and this is the primary issue that needs to be addressed. If the player market can't be implemented in a timely fashion then the stop-gap measure of putting ISK into FW in addition to LP needs to take place.
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