DUST Search - A proposal for Tanks/AV

Takahiro Kashuken wrote:

Now your messing with cooldown numbers

Generally we have stacking penalties, in the case of the 3 hardener gunlogi it doesnt really apply since you do turn them on in sequence but you just because you do have one on all the time doesnt mean you are unkillable but puts you in a better situation but that is due to the fit but you cant sonic speed or use dmg mods or a scanner or booster but its the drivers choice

My problem is this, its ment to be a sandbox game and with an idea like this its does throw the sand out of the box because you are being punished for fitting it how you like

Its like saying this for infantry, if you put on more than 1 shield extender you will get less shield HP added with each mod after the 1st one, so it will go from 66 to 50 to 33 for example when it doesnt happen

Now if cap is ever added would the penalty still apply? for example you max out the cap support skills and are able to perma rep 2 hardeners but the 3rd you can only pulse so when that is turned off do you still have the 141sec cooldown penalty? along with the stacking penalty where it gives you less resistance on that 2nd/3rd mod so then instead of having 1 penalty you get 2 because you choose to use more than 1 mod

It doesnt seem to fit the sandbox way because you are being told what you can and cant fit and also makes the cooldown skill utterly useless for the hardeners

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Jason Pearson 3657	Posted - 2013.12.27 06:12:00 - [1] - Quote I am a strong believer that things such as triple hardener fitted tanks break the game, it completely removes the idea of waves of opportunity, where both Vehicles and AV get a chance to beat the other, Vehicles get it when their actives are on, AV get in when vehicles actives are off, however some builds completely destroy that idea. Let's look at a Gunnlogi with three complex hardeners wiith max skills. Each hardener lasts for 30 seconds and has a cooldown of 45 seconds, this by itself isn't bad, however you now have two more of these with your fit. By activating your hardeners at the right time, you're able to continously sit in a hardened state, unaffected by most AV which is ridiculous, yes tanks are intended to be strong but not like this. So here's a suggestion.. For every hardener, add 50% cooldown per module. this would mean that with three hardeners on your tank, you'd incur a large cooldown penalty even if you only have one active. 1: 45 2: 67.5 (22.5) 3: 101.25 (22.5+33.75) So, to clarify, if you have three hardeners on your tank with max skills and at complex, you're going to be running a hardener for 30 seconds with a cooldown of 101.25 secs (1 minute 41.25). This would mean with all three running at once you would be extremely strong allowing you to have this customization aspect DUST has said there would be, but in turn you sacrifice a lot by having to wait for a while till you can get back out into the fight. For those that whine about militia tanks being too strong to kill (you know, the ones using militia hardeners on sicas?), at 0SP investment, a militia hardener runs for 24 seconds and has a cooldown for 100 seconds, by placing two on the vehicle it's now at 150 seconds (2 minutes 30 seconds) per hardener. This means AV will have a massive amount of time to hit back at militia tanks but they can still be useful and can still fight other tanks. Now, I know what you're thinking, what's the point when they can just recall and then get another tank with no cooldowns, my second suggestion. Remove the ability to recall any vehicle with a cooldown on it. This suggestion means that all vehicles will not be able to be recalled if they've just activated a module and not only helps the above idea but also means AV have time to push an attack on vehicle that is behind cover with its pilot trying to recall. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire. Zaria for Miss Universe 2014
Heinz Doofenshertz BetaMax. 605	Posted - 2013.12.27 06:15:00 - [2] - Quote while I agree with that this change would help with this situation, I still have a disagreement with the ability to have more than one hardner on a tank. Dust514 Stats, Have you updated today? I do maths, and sit in a corner.
JL3Eleven 1432	Posted - 2013.12.27 06:19:00 - [3] - Quote Just wondering how much SP you have in tanks. My tank alt has only 5m SP yet can compete against 95% of tankers I've seen. iLB6 FUB9 Now is the best time to ever practice/learn tanking.
Jason Pearson 3657	Posted - 2013.12.27 06:22:00 - [4] - Quote JL3Eleven wrote: Just wondering how much SP you have in tanks. My tank alt has only 5m SP yet can compete against 95% of tankers I've seen. I'd like to ask what relevance that has? We all know tanks can easily compete against eachother, problem is AV shouldn't be stuck on the sidelines and have to have more players to kill a single HAV, it's gamebreaking. Tanks die pretty quickly once their hardeners go down, problem is most fits have atleast two hardeners meaning at complex with max skills it's so easy to tank and rack up kills without dying. Oh, 20mil. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire. Zaria for Miss Universe 2014
JL3Eleven 1432	Posted - 2013.12.27 06:28:00 - [5] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: JL3Eleven wrote: Just wondering how much SP you have in tanks. My tank alt has only 5m SP yet can compete against 95% of tankers I've seen. I'd like to ask what relevance that has? We all know tanks can easily compete against eachother, problem is AV shouldn't be stuck on the sidelines and have to have more players to kill a single HAV, it's gamebreaking. Tanks die pretty quickly once their hardeners go down, problem is most fits have atleast two hardeners meaning at complex with max skills it's so easy to tank and rack up kills without dying. Oh, 20mil. I told you I was just wondering. I've never tanked before 1.7 so I'm new at it. iLB6 FUB9 Now is the best time to ever practice/learn tanking.
Jason Pearson 3657	Posted - 2013.12.27 06:32:00 - [6] - Quote JL3Eleven wrote: Jason Pearson wrote: JL3Eleven wrote: Just wondering how much SP you have in tanks. My tank alt has only 5m SP yet can compete against 95% of tankers I've seen. I'd like to ask what relevance that has? We all know tanks can easily compete against eachother, problem is AV shouldn't be stuck on the sidelines and have to have more players to kill a single HAV, it's gamebreaking. Tanks die pretty quickly once their hardeners go down, problem is most fits have atleast two hardeners meaning at complex with max skills it's so easy to tank and rack up kills without dying. Oh, 20mil. I told you I was just wondering. I've never tanked before 1.7 so I'm new at it. Sorry heh, people only seem to ask how much SP you have in something so they can just refuse the idea outright for either: You have less SP than me, you're not good enough yet You have more SP than me, but I'm better than you so get good. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire. Zaria for Miss Universe 2014
Jason Pearson 3661	Posted - 2013.12.27 17:20:00 - [7] - Quote Bump. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire. Zaria for Miss Universe 2014
ratamaq doc Edge Regiment 292	Posted - 2013.12.27 17:27:00 - [8] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: Now, I know what you're thinking, what's the point when they can just recall and then get another tank with no cooldowns, my second suggestion. Remove the ability to recall any vehicle with a cooldown on it. This suggestion means that all vehicles will not be able to be recalled if they've just activated a module and not only helps the above idea but also means AV have time to push an attack on vehicle that is behind cover with its pilot trying to recall. You're right, this is exactly what I was thinking as I read your post. Nice preemptive comeback. I like the idea. YouTube 30D Recruiting
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 5099	Posted - 2013.12.27 17:37:00 - [9] - Quote A sensible tanker! Madness! Absolute madness! Sorcery! Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
G Torq ALTA B2O 332	Posted - 2013.12.27 17:38:00 - [10] - Quote While I like the idea, I'm still a proponent of only allowing a single hardener (of any type) on a vehicle, Team Fairy DUST HTTP://Dust.Thang.DK/ - DUST514 Fitting Tool based on DUST SDE

Benjamin Ciscko The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1057	Posted - 2013.12.27 17:40:00 - [11] - Quote Maybe not so harsh like 35-40% but understandable. Tanker/Assault Can I have my ADV and PRO tanks now (Honeyed Lamb enroute).
noob cavman Tickle My Null-Sac 324	Posted - 2013.12.27 17:54:00 - [12] - Quote You know something is amiss when I have to pull out a tank or my lav for av duty. So plus one to you on that Hey mlt tank guess what my lav is ready and I GOT TWO TICKETS TO PARADISE!!!
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 402	Posted - 2013.12.27 18:01:00 - [13] - Quote The problem is, limiting to one hardener breaks the games own rules. No other equipment acts that way. Unless we add a special slot to vehicles that only hardeners fit, and give each 1. In another thread, I proposed some penalties for using hardeners. They should be modules that allow you to tank out a situation a bit, but right now they are being used as simply god mode once AV gets involved to escape any danger. Stack 2 of them at the same time and my adv forge gun barely scratches 10% of an armor tanks health. I proposed an equal speed decrease to go along side the damage reduction. Make hardeners act like a "siege" mode. Where you are pretty hard to kill, but you are pretty immobilized too. This would really stop the current AV issue of tanks just popping hardeners and fleeing. And would allow infantry to wait out hardeners a bit more since right now, we have to engage while hardeners are up, because otherwise the tank will be long gone before it runs out.
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 1838	Posted - 2013.12.27 18:13:00 - [14] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: A sensible tanker! Madness! Absolute madness! Sorcery! Egads! It's good to keep a dialog going so instead of a nerf hammer we can actually balanced without breaking. Most people don't realize that and stupid things like "Don't touch my ScR rifle!" "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Operative 1171 Aajli Bragian Order Amarr Empire 946	Posted - 2013.12.27 18:14:00 - [15] - Quote Nice idea, however, even with 3 hardeners I still have to patrol back around to the redline for a cooldown. Before I got back up to gunnlogi on this char redo I had a guy mail me asking why am I afking in a tank rather than in the MCC. i was on cooldown with two enhanced hardeners. Point is that tanks are already in trouble of ppl just complaining they're useless if they need cooldowns and further promoting the idea that only infantry assault is a valid playstyle. Already stacking shield hardeners delay depleted shield recharge. How about we make stacked mods just reduce the buff %? Do your part. Join the revolution. Sabotage FW. Help this game burn! BURN DUST 2014
Lv2spd2 Slow And Old 148	Posted - 2013.12.27 18:32:00 - [16] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: For every hardener, add 50% cooldown per module. this would mean that with three hardeners on your tank, you'd incur a large cooldown penalty even if you only have one active. I like your idea. Another option for a similar effect would be to tie all hardners on any tank together. So if you turn one on they all come on. No cycling for non stop hardening that way.
Kane Fyea Scions of Athra 2495	Posted - 2013.12.27 18:36:00 - [17] - Quote I don't think it should be that harsh of a penalty but the idea is still good. Maybe make it like dmg mods stacking penalty instead of 50% penalty every time.
StaySqueezy ZilchmobZ Industries 5	Posted - 2013.12.27 18:40:00 - [18] - Quote The tanks are super poeerful but they are tanks so i wouldnt call them op. They just need to be a hell of a lot more expensive. One tank is cheaper than 3 duvolle's which is crazy. Tanks should be around 350k atleast. "How do you keep a dog from biting you on monday?".........."You kill it on sunday."
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1579	Posted - 2013.12.27 18:56:00 - [19] - Quote What is it with you and wanting tankers to only use 1 hardener? You sound like a die-hard infantryman. Are you sick or something? Infantry cries for tank changes, and they don't like them. Tell them to use vehicles, they complain, and use cars anyway
Flix Keptick Red Star. EoN. 3176	Posted - 2013.12.27 18:57:00 - [20] - Quote 50% is a bit intense Lack of content makes stuff broken... Tank driver // specialized tank destroyer

Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2050	Posted - 2013.12.27 19:07:00 - [21] - Quote Now your messing with cooldown numbers Generally we have stacking penalties, in the case of the 3 hardener gunlogi it doesnt really apply since you do turn them on in sequence but you just because you do have one on all the time doesnt mean you are unkillable but puts you in a better situation but that is due to the fit but you cant sonic speed or use dmg mods or a scanner or booster but its the drivers choice My problem is this, its ment to be a sandbox game and with an idea like this its does throw the sand out of the box because you are being punished for fitting it how you like Its like saying this for infantry, if you put on more than 1 shield extender you will get less shield HP added with each mod after the 1st one, so it will go from 66 to 50 to 33 for example when it doesnt happen Now if cap is ever added would the penalty still apply? for example you max out the cap support skills and are able to perma rep 2 hardeners but the 3rd you can only pulse so when that is turned off do you still have the 141sec cooldown penalty? along with the stacking penalty where it gives you less resistance on that 2nd/3rd mod so then instead of having 1 penalty you get 2 because you choose to use more than 1 mod It doesnt seem to fit the sandbox way because you are being told what you can and cant fit and also makes the cooldown skill utterly useless for the hardeners Intelligence is OP
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1992	Posted - 2013.12.27 19:07:00 - [22] - Quote That might work. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else, there is the Learning Coalition.
Jason Pearson 3669	Posted - 2013.12.27 19:08:00 - [23] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: What is it with you and wanting tankers to only use 1 hardener? You sound like a die-hard infantryman. Are you sick or something? I don't like seeing broken mechanics end up nerfing us, fact is we need to balance the multiple hardeners, that's the true problem, the fact that there is no "waves of opportunity" for anyone else other than tanks because we can stack three complex and go loose. I figured this would be a better solution rather than make it one hardener only, and ofcourse 50% was more of a number I threw out there. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire. Zaria for Miss Universe 2014
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1579	Posted - 2013.12.27 19:17:00 - [24] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: What is it with you and wanting tankers to only use 1 hardener? You sound like a die-hard infantryman. Are you sick or something? I don't like seeing broken mechanics end up nerfing us, fact is we need to balance the multiple hardeners, that's the true problem, the fact that there is no "waves of opportunity" for anyone else other than tanks because we can stack three complex and go loose. I figured this would be a better solution rather than make it one hardener only, and ofcourse 50% was more of a number I threw out there. Broken mechanics didn't nerf us, infantry did, because they believed they should be the most effective at doing everything in the game. Infantry cries for tank changes, and they don't like them. Tell them to use vehicles, they complain, and use cars anyway
Jason Pearson 3670	Posted - 2013.12.27 19:19:00 - [25] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Now your messing with cooldown numbers Generally we have stacking penalties, in the case of the 3 hardener gunlogi it doesnt really apply since you do turn them on in sequence but you just because you do have one on all the time doesnt mean you are unkillable but puts you in a better situation but that is due to the fit but you cant sonic speed or use dmg mods or a scanner or booster but its the drivers choice My problem is this, its ment to be a sandbox game and with an idea like this its does throw the sand out of the box because you are being punished for fitting it how you like Its like saying this for infantry, if you put on more than 1 shield extender you will get less shield HP added with each mod after the 1st one, so it will go from 66 to 50 to 33 for example when it doesnt happen Now if cap is ever added would the penalty still apply? for example you max out the cap support skills and are able to perma rep 2 hardeners but the 3rd you can only pulse so when that is turned off do you still have the 141sec cooldown penalty? along with the stacking penalty where it gives you less resistance on that 2nd/3rd mod so then instead of having 1 penalty you get 2 because you choose to use more than 1 mod It doesnt seem to fit the sandbox way because you are being told what you can and cant fit and also makes the cooldown skill utterly useless for the hardeners With one hardener you can negate most AV for a period of time, with three you can do it constantly. The reason I was thinking about this was due to the very conversation we had in IRC on this, the fact that limiting it would remove that element, you can build it how you want but you can only have one of these, which isn't cool. Don't treat Infantry the same as us Taka, they're not invincible against most players on the field :P Cap as in Capacitor? To be fair then if it happens then CCP are going to have to rework the system a little bit and these posts on balance don't apply. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire. Zaria for Miss Universe 2014
Jason Pearson 3670	Posted - 2013.12.27 19:20:00 - [26] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Jason Pearson wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: What is it with you and wanting tankers to only use 1 hardener? You sound like a die-hard infantryman. Are you sick or something? I don't like seeing broken mechanics end up nerfing us, fact is we need to balance the multiple hardeners, that's the true problem, the fact that there is no "waves of opportunity" for anyone else other than tanks because we can stack three complex and go loose. I figured this would be a better solution rather than make it one hardener only, and ofcourse 50% was more of a number I threw out there. Broken mechanics didn't nerf us, infantry did, because they believed they should be the most effective at doing everything in the game. Sorry, "I don't want to see broken mechanics end up nerfing us". And it is broken, the ability to run a hardener constantly is ridiculous. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire. Zaria for Miss Universe 2014
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 2645	Posted - 2013.12.27 19:48:00 - [27] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: What is it with you and wanting tankers to only use 1 hardener? You sound like a die-hard infantryman. Are you sick or something? Multiple hardners break the "waves of opportunity" ideal. Your supposed to have a wave of incredible strength, followed by a wave of weakness. I played a Domination map with you yesterday and your Gunnlogi had it's hardners down once. Can you tell me that's not broken? We finally deployed in the MinFW Match! \o/
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 2645	Posted - 2013.12.27 19:51:00 - [28] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Broken mechanics didn't nerf us, infantry did, because they believed they should be the most effective at doing everything in the game. All while tanks are the most effective at doing everything in the game. Heck, all infantry is good for anymore is hacking objectives, which doesn't even become a factor when you can easily butcher 150 clones before the MCC's shields fail. (bar PC) We finally deployed in the MinFW Match! \o/
Surt gods end Demon Ronin 1427	Posted - 2013.12.27 20:05:00 - [29] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Jason Pearson wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: What is it with you and wanting tankers to only use 1 hardener? You sound like a die-hard infantryman. Are you sick or something? I don't like seeing broken mechanics end up nerfing us, fact is we need to balance the multiple hardeners, that's the true problem, the fact that there is no "waves of opportunity" for anyone else other than tanks because we can stack three complex and go loose. I figured this would be a better solution rather than make it one hardener only, and ofcourse 50% was more of a number I threw out there. Broken mechanics didn't nerf us, infantry did, because they believed they should be the most effective at doing everything in the game. Sorry, "I don't want to see broken mechanics end up nerfing us". And it is broken, the ability to run a hardener constantly is ridiculous. Jason sees ahead. I'm still taking out tanks. SOLO. (not like before, but still doing it) So why is it that I'm not up there saying "AV IS FINE!" Cause it's not. Not for the new guys. Not for many of the old guys either. This is a fps game with vehicles. always was. When the nerf comes, you will know why. Had CCP ever wanted a vehicles first, so negate infantry kinda a game, they would have made a RTS.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 403	Posted - 2013.12.27 20:17:00 - [30] - Quote Honest question. How are you taking out decent/good tanks/tankers solo? The only method I can think of is tank traps with REs. Which while decent, still relies on a tanker mistake. There is no real way for solo AV to kill tankers if tankers play smart.



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