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Jason Pearson
3657
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Posted - 2013.12.27 06:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
I am a strong believer that things such as triple hardener fitted tanks break the game, it completely removes the idea of waves of opportunity, where both Vehicles and AV get a chance to beat the other, Vehicles get it when their actives are on, AV get in when vehicles actives are off, however some builds completely destroy that idea.
Let's look at a Gunnlogi with three complex hardeners wiith max skills. Each hardener lasts for 30 seconds and has a cooldown of 45 seconds, this by itself isn't bad, however you now have two more of these with your fit. By activating your hardeners at the right time, you're able to continously sit in a hardened state, unaffected by most AV which is ridiculous, yes tanks are intended to be strong but not like this. So here's a suggestion..
For every hardener, add 50% cooldown per module. this would mean that with three hardeners on your tank, you'd incur a large cooldown penalty even if you only have one active.
1: 45
2: 67.5 (22.5)
3: 101.25 (22.5+33.75)
So, to clarify, if you have three hardeners on your tank with max skills and at complex, you're going to be running a hardener for 30 seconds with a cooldown of 101.25 secs (1 minute 41.25). This would mean with all three running at once you would be extremely strong allowing you to have this customization aspect DUST has said there would be, but in turn you sacrifice a lot by having to wait for a while till you can get back out into the fight.
For those that whine about militia tanks being too strong to kill (you know, the ones using militia hardeners on sicas?), at 0SP investment, a militia hardener runs for 24 seconds and has a cooldown for 100 seconds, by placing two on the vehicle it's now at 150 seconds (2 minutes 30 seconds) per hardener. This means AV will have a massive amount of time to hit back at militia tanks but they can still be useful and can still fight other tanks.
Now, I know what you're thinking, what's the point when they can just recall and then get another tank with no cooldowns, my second suggestion. Remove the ability to recall any vehicle with a cooldown on it. This suggestion means that all vehicles will not be able to be recalled if they've just activated a module and not only helps the above idea but also means AV have time to push an attack on vehicle that is behind cover with its pilot trying to recall.
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Jason Pearson
3657
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Posted - 2013.12.27 06:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
JL3Eleven wrote:Just wondering how much SP you have in tanks. My tank alt has only 5m SP yet can compete against 95% of tankers I've seen.
I'd like to ask what relevance that has? We all know tanks can easily compete against eachother, problem is AV shouldn't be stuck on the sidelines and have to have more players to kill a single HAV, it's gamebreaking. Tanks die pretty quickly once their hardeners go down, problem is most fits have atleast two hardeners meaning at complex with max skills it's so easy to tank and rack up kills without dying.
Oh, 20mil.
King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire.
Zaria for Miss Universe 2014
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Jason Pearson
3657
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Posted - 2013.12.27 06:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
JL3Eleven wrote:Jason Pearson wrote:JL3Eleven wrote:Just wondering how much SP you have in tanks. My tank alt has only 5m SP yet can compete against 95% of tankers I've seen. I'd like to ask what relevance that has? We all know tanks can easily compete against eachother, problem is AV shouldn't be stuck on the sidelines and have to have more players to kill a single HAV, it's gamebreaking. Tanks die pretty quickly once their hardeners go down, problem is most fits have atleast two hardeners meaning at complex with max skills it's so easy to tank and rack up kills without dying. Oh, 20mil. I told you I was just wondering. I've never tanked before 1.7 so I'm new at it.
Sorry heh, people only seem to ask how much SP you have in something so they can just refuse the idea outright for either:
You have less SP than me, you're not good enough yet
You have more SP than me, but I'm better than you so get good.
King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire.
Zaria for Miss Universe 2014
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Jason Pearson
3661
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Posted - 2013.12.27 17:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Bump.
King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire.
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Jason Pearson
3669
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Posted - 2013.12.27 19:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:What is it with you and wanting tankers to only use 1 hardener? You sound like a die-hard infantryman. Are you sick or something?
I don't like seeing broken mechanics end up nerfing us, fact is we need to balance the multiple hardeners, that's the true problem, the fact that there is no "waves of opportunity" for anyone else other than tanks because we can stack three complex and go loose.
I figured this would be a better solution rather than make it one hardener only, and ofcourse 50% was more of a number I threw out there.
King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire.
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Jason Pearson
3670
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Posted - 2013.12.27 19:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Now your messing with cooldown numbers
Generally we have stacking penalties, in the case of the 3 hardener gunlogi it doesnt really apply since you do turn them on in sequence but you just because you do have one on all the time doesnt mean you are unkillable but puts you in a better situation but that is due to the fit but you cant sonic speed or use dmg mods or a scanner or booster but its the drivers choice
My problem is this, its ment to be a sandbox game and with an idea like this its does throw the sand out of the box because you are being punished for fitting it how you like
Its like saying this for infantry, if you put on more than 1 shield extender you will get less shield HP added with each mod after the 1st one, so it will go from 66 to 50 to 33 for example when it doesnt happen
Now if cap is ever added would the penalty still apply? for example you max out the cap support skills and are able to perma rep 2 hardeners but the 3rd you can only pulse so when that is turned off do you still have the 141sec cooldown penalty? along with the stacking penalty where it gives you less resistance on that 2nd/3rd mod so then instead of having 1 penalty you get 2 because you choose to use more than 1 mod
It doesnt seem to fit the sandbox way because you are being told what you can and cant fit and also makes the cooldown skill utterly useless for the hardeners
With one hardener you can negate most AV for a period of time, with three you can do it constantly.
The reason I was thinking about this was due to the very conversation we had in IRC on this, the fact that limiting it would remove that element, you can build it how you want but you can only have one of these, which isn't cool. Don't treat Infantry the same as us Taka, they're not invincible against most players on the field :P
Cap as in Capacitor? To be fair then if it happens then CCP are going to have to rework the system a little bit and these posts on balance don't apply.
King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire.
Zaria for Miss Universe 2014
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Jason Pearson
3670
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Posted - 2013.12.27 19:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Jason Pearson wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:What is it with you and wanting tankers to only use 1 hardener? You sound like a die-hard infantryman. Are you sick or something? I don't like seeing broken mechanics end up nerfing us, fact is we need to balance the multiple hardeners, that's the true problem, the fact that there is no "waves of opportunity" for anyone else other than tanks because we can stack three complex and go loose. I figured this would be a better solution rather than make it one hardener only, and ofcourse 50% was more of a number I threw out there. Broken mechanics didn't nerf us, infantry did, because they believed they should be the most effective at doing everything in the game.
Sorry, "I don't want to see broken mechanics end up nerfing us". And it is broken, the ability to run a hardener constantly is ridiculous.
King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire.
Zaria for Miss Universe 2014
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Jason Pearson
3676
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Posted - 2013.12.27 20:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bones McGavins wrote:Honest question. How are you taking out decent/good tanks/tankers solo?
The only method I can think of is tank traps with REs. Which while decent, still relies on a tanker mistake.
There is no real way for solo AV to kill tankers if tankers play smart.
Either Officer Forge against tanks with just a single hardener, or my Missile Gunnlogi.
King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire.
Zaria for Miss Universe 2014
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Jason Pearson
3683
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Posted - 2013.12.28 14:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Jason Pearson wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Now your messing with cooldown numbers
Generally we have stacking penalties, in the case of the 3 hardener gunlogi it doesnt really apply since you do turn them on in sequence but you just because you do have one on all the time doesnt mean you are unkillable but puts you in a better situation but that is due to the fit but you cant sonic speed or use dmg mods or a scanner or booster but its the drivers choice
My problem is this, its ment to be a sandbox game and with an idea like this its does throw the sand out of the box because you are being punished for fitting it how you like
Its like saying this for infantry, if you put on more than 1 shield extender you will get less shield HP added with each mod after the 1st one, so it will go from 66 to 50 to 33 for example when it doesnt happen
Now if cap is ever added would the penalty still apply? for example you max out the cap support skills and are able to perma rep 2 hardeners but the 3rd you can only pulse so when that is turned off do you still have the 141sec cooldown penalty? along with the stacking penalty where it gives you less resistance on that 2nd/3rd mod so then instead of having 1 penalty you get 2 because you choose to use more than 1 mod
It doesnt seem to fit the sandbox way because you are being told what you can and cant fit and also makes the cooldown skill utterly useless for the hardeners With one hardener you can negate most AV for a period of time, with three you can do it constantly. The reason I was thinking about this was due to the very conversation we had in IRC on this, the fact that limiting it would remove that element, you can build it how you want but you can only have one of these, which isn't cool. Don't treat Infantry the same as us Taka, they're not invincible against most players on the field :P Cap as in Capacitor? To be fair then if it happens then CCP are going to have to rework the system a little bit and these posts on balance don't apply. But it makes my cooldown skill utterly useless for hardeners Another skill bites the dust while more sand is being chucked out The 3 hardener tank is no more of a problem than a 3dmg modded tank and frankly i dont see it all the time anyways and blaster will still rip through the gunlogi with 1 hardener on and so will a FG/PLC, only with 2 on at the same time is the defence up well but a rail tank will still hit hard through 2 There is counters and it doesnt seem to be a major problem, most tanks i see are armor still and blaster and mostly militia
Actually it does.
with the skill giving a 25% reduction to cooldowns, you get this with a complex:
No Skills
1 .60
2. 90
3. 135
Max Skills
1. 45
2. 67.5
3. 101.25
So it does something, and you still have to wait to use your modules. As for your damage mods, I am in support of this system for all actives, meaning you'd want to mix it up rather than stack triple damage mods or triple hardeners, but you could still do it.
King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire.
Zaria for Miss Universe 2014
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