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knight of 6 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 880	Posted - 2013.12.23 18:43:00 - [1] - Quote this is not a new topic, in fact it's probably one of the oldest. we all agree that we need a safe staging point and a place to organize. most of us agree that it's being abused by snipers and rail tanks that wreak havoc from an unreachable area of the map. that isn't cool it needs to be stopped and many solutions have been put forth each with their own flaws. place a timer on the how long you can stay in the redline this is probably the worst solution in that it creates a problem without solving one. redline snipers will simply wait out the timer leave and then return regardless of any cooldown time. however in the situation that your team is redlined then after the timer goes out you are forced to run to your death like a lemming off a cliff. make the redzone smaller limiting the redline to a walled compound or depot makes sense lore wise and game wise it would protect you from enemy fire while you organised or called in vehicles ect. while not favoring snipers or tanks. however if your team got redlined it would nearly impossible to break it. limited entrances means limited limited exits and in a small area it would be easy to cover all of them. a lack of limited entrances wouldn't supply enough cover. it's more workable than the last one but not really optimal. firing increases scan profile rework passive scanning so they don't have a maximum range but have a fall off into infinity so that if something had a big enough profile you could see it no matter where it is on the map. obviously make the fall off such that it doesn't effect passive scanning when the enemy isn't firing. this would be an interesting mechanic all around and I think it may be worthy of it's own thread due to its far reaching consequences. it would help redline sniping and in particular tanking because as soon as you fired a lot of people would know where you are and avoid you or return fire. no WP for redline kills simple you kill from the redline, you get no WP. it wont stop redline sniping and that is it's flaw, it would discourage it but doesn't really solve anything. I really just put it here to be one step ahead of everyone who will inevitably post similar "solutions". the problem is that redline snipers are unreachable therefore the solution must make them more reachable. I like number three the best personally and would like to see it implemented if only to add an interesting layer to scanning profile dampening and the like. what are your thoughts? "God favors the side with the best artillery" ~ Napoleon Ko6, scout, tanker. CLOSED BETA VET
MassiveNine 0uter.Heaven 687	Posted - 2013.12.23 18:47:00 - [2] - Quote TBH I think removing WP and all damage dealt while in the redline would fix all the problems we have with the redline, most importantly tanks and snipers. If they made it so that you could still take damage but couldn't deal damage in the redline everyone would leave the redline. Official DUST514 LAV Mechanic
knight of 6 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 881	Posted - 2013.12.23 18:55:00 - [3] - Quote MassiveNine wrote: TBH I think removing WP and all damage dealt while in the redline would fix all the problems we have with the redline, most importantly tanks and snipers. If they made it so that you could still take damage but couldn't deal damage in the redline everyone would leave the redline. but then if you were on a bad team that got redlined, I know, you? a vet redlined? only scrubs get redlined. but lets take off those rose tinted glasses and face the fact that the matchmaking system is not good enough to prevent relineing from happening. suddenly there is an a full team of people who cannot deal any damage whatsoever and can only receive it. shooting gallery and stat padding for the winning team the losing team hasn't a prayer in hell of breaking through. "God favors the side with the best artillery" ~ Napoleon Ko6, scout, tanker. CLOSED BETA VET
RedZer0 MK1 The Generals General Tso's Alliance 135	Posted - 2013.12.23 19:03:00 - [4] - Quote Just make it no damage in, no damage out.
Operative 1171 Aajli Bragian Order Amarr Empire 933	Posted - 2013.12.23 19:13:00 - [5] - Quote How about just put the redline behind the hills. Do your part. Join the revolution. Sabotage FW. Help this game burn! BURN DUST 2014
knight of 6 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 881	Posted - 2013.12.23 19:22:00 - [6] - Quote Operative 1171 Aajli wrote: How about just put the redline behind the hills. it could be a viable answer, it would have to be such that there was still cover so the enemy couldn't stand on the hill shooting into the redline. "God favors the side with the best artillery" ~ Napoleon Ko6, scout, tanker. CLOSED BETA VET
howard sanchez Sanchez Cartage llc 827	Posted - 2013.12.23 19:25:00 - [7] - Quote Just how much of a problem is the Red Line really? Do teams win games from behind the red line? No Do pub stompers hate that it is more difficult to persecute newbs that hide behind the red line? Yes Do players really hate being sniped ( by rifles or tanks) from behind the redline? Yes Is there an effective counter to being sniped? Yes, move to cover - there is a lot of cover when the shooter operates behind his REdLine. Do we really need CCP to change dust fundamentals because you can't clone a team out that hides behind thier line or because you get shot occasionally from there? No
Benjamin Ciscko The Generals General Tso's Alliance 431	Posted - 2013.12.23 19:28:00 - [8] - Quote A massive visible force field exactly where the redline is you can not shoot out or in. Tanker/Assault Can I have my ADV and PRO tanks now (Honeyed Lamb enroute).
knight of 6 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 881	Posted - 2013.12.23 19:31:00 - [9] - Quote howard sanchez wrote: Just how much of a problem is the Red Line really? Do teams win games from behind the red line? No Do pub stompers hate that it is more difficult to persecute newbs that hide behind the red line? Yes Do players really hate being sniped ( by rifles or tanks) from behind the redline? Yes Is there an effective counter to being sniped? Yes, move to cover - there is a lot of cover when the shooter operates behind his REdLine. Do we really need CCP to change dust fundamentals because you can't clone a team out that hides behind thier line or because you get shot occasionally from there? No I'm a scout... there is no move to cover I just die OHKO. and I hear that redline tanks are giving dropships serious problems I think judge had a thread out about how rails are seriously broken. "God favors the side with the best artillery" ~ Napoleon Ko6, scout, tanker. CLOSED BETA VET
Flix Keptick Red Star. EoN. 1741	Posted - 2013.12.23 19:35:00 - [10] - Quote There should be a "forcefield" (I know, it's illogical) that prevents stuff from being shot both ways, just like the mcc's hole. This would still allow enemy players to venture inside of the redline to kill stuff at the risk of being killed by the timer. Redlining would also become useless since you couldn't shoot inside the enemy redline. Also solving the problem of enemy railtanks destroying vehicles before they even land. Lack of content makes stuff broken... GÿåTank driverGÿå

Quil Evrything Triple Terrors 586	Posted - 2013.12.23 19:40:00 - [11] - Quote I'll mention that some maps are better than others for this. Some have protected areas. Some do not. Some depend on (random factor that determines your ground spawn "socket" plugin. I'll also mention that this sort of thing supports my long time call for BIGGER ,rather than smaller maps. Where bigger maps, implies larger, non-enemy invadable redline areas. The bad examples: Ashland. Where the enemy can just run through your redline with LAVs and tanks, and your team has effectively zero chance of countering. in theory, some tanks could counter... except you'll never have time to receive delivery of them.
Poonmunch Sanguis Defense Syndicate 700	Posted - 2013.12.23 19:44:00 - [12] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: this is not a new topic, in fact it's probably one of the oldest. we all agree that we need a safe staging point and a place to organize. most of us agree that it's being abused by snipers and rail tanks that wreak havoc from an unreachable area of the map. that isn't cool it needs to be stopped and many solutions have been put forth each with their own flaws. place a timer on the how long you can stay in the redline this is probably the worst solution in that it creates a problem without solving one. redline snipers will simply wait out the timer leave and then return regardless of any cooldown time. however in the situation that your team is redlined then after the timer goes out you are forced to run to your death like a lemming off a cliff. make the redzone smaller limiting the redline to a walled compound or depot makes sense lore wise and game wise it would protect you from enemy fire while you organised or called in vehicles ect. while not favoring snipers or tanks. however if your team got redlined it would nearly impossible to break it. limited entrances means limited limited exits and in a small area it would be easy to cover all of them. a lack of limited entrances wouldn't supply enough cover. it's more workable than the last one but not really optimal. firing increases scan profile rework passive scanning so they don't have a maximum range but have a fall off into infinity so that if something had a big enough profile you could see it no matter where it is on the map. obviously make the fall off such that it doesn't effect passive scanning when the enemy isn't firing. this would be an interesting mechanic all around and I think it may be worthy of it's own thread due to its far reaching consequences. it would help redline sniping and in particular tanking because as soon as you fired a lot of people would know where you are and avoid you or return fire. no WP for redline kills simple you kill from the redline, you get no WP. it wont stop redline sniping and that is it's flaw, it would discourage it but doesn't really solve anything. I really just put it here to be one step ahead of everyone who will inevitably post similar "solutions". the problem is that redline snipers are unreachable therefore the solution must make them more reachable. I like number three the best personally and would like to see it implemented if only to add an interesting layer to scanning profile dampening and the like. what are your thoughts? Yahhh ... No. If you don't want snipers, just say you don't want snipers. Campaign to get rid of us. Just sayin'. Munch Dedicated Sniper. Minmatar Patriot.
knight of 6 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 882	Posted - 2013.12.23 19:54:00 - [13] - Quote Poonmunch wrote: Yahhh ... No. If you don't want snipers, just say you don't want snipers. Campaign to get rid of us. Just sayin'. Munch I'm not trying to get rid of snipers, just don't do it from the redline. I don't care if you are on a tower or at the top of some god forsaken mountain as long as I have the ability to come and get you it's cool. "God favors the side with the best artillery" ~ Napoleon Ko6, scout, tanker. CLOSED BETA VET
Poonmunch Sanguis Defense Syndicate 700	Posted - 2013.12.23 22:40:00 - [14] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: Poonmunch wrote: Yahhh ... No. If you don't want snipers, just say you don't want snipers. Campaign to get rid of us. Just sayin'. Munch I'm not trying to get rid of snipers, just don't do it from the redline. I don't care if you are on a tower or at the top of some god forsaken mountain as long as I have the ability to come and get you it's cool. I have no problem with you trying to get me. I personally don't care for redline sniping as a rule but I do do it on occasion and if the situation warrants it. The thing most people don't realize is that almost all good redline sniping spots are very easy to hit by counter sniping. Having said this, I'd be happy if there was no such thing as a redline. I'd like the playable surface of the map to be the whole map. Then you'll see snipers reaping skulls across the universe. Munch Dedicated Sniper. Minmatar Patriot.
HYENAKILLER X AGGRESSIVE TYPE 421	Posted - 2013.12.23 22:51:00 - [15] - Quote Red line sniper- a player who has been absolutely driven back to the safety zone due to lack of skill or team ability or some cherry picking clown. I was over it at 1.4 You are welcome for my leadership *Proven Aggressive Type
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 191	Posted - 2013.12.23 22:54:00 - [16] - Quote howard sanchez wrote: Do teams win games from behind the red line? No Do pub stompers hate that it is more difficult to persecute newbs that hide behind the red line? Yes Do players really hate being sniped ( by rifles or tanks) from behind the redline? Yes Is there an effective counter to being sniped? Yes, move to cover - there is a lot of cover when the shooter operates behind his REdLine. Do we really need CCP to change dust fundamentals because you can't clone a team out that hides behind thier line or because you get shot occasionally from there? No The issue with the redline is entirely because one side has an extreme risk advantage, ie, the person in the redline has a massive barrier that either severely restricts or almost completely removes retaliation options. In a game where your money is supposed to matter and your dropsuit fittings being pretty much the only way to spend/lose money currently, having a location that can have a massive impact on risk/reward ratio is bad. Take, for example, the plight of us Assault Dropship pilots: we risk upwards of 300,000 ISK just by bringing out the ADS hull, let alone any modules or weapons that we fit. A redline rail-tank costing a quarter or less can sit in an area and pop us all day long. This would be frustrating under normal circumstances, but we could at least react by taking a small measure of vengeance. However, now the redline intervenes and prevents the ADS pilot from effectively retaliating, whether on foot; in the air; or in some other fashion because they have a time limit in which to exact their revenge. This is why the redline is an issue: it allows extremely low risk actions in a game intended to involve choice and consequence where high risk actions can potentially yield more. Currently that is not the case - partly because the game is still immature, but also in part because the redline reduces risk.
ELITE INQUISITOR Eternal Beings 61	Posted - 2013.12.24 04:31:00 - [17] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: Poonmunch wrote: Yahhh ... No. If you don't want snipers, just say you don't want snipers. Campaign to get rid of us. Just sayin'. Munch I'm not trying to get rid of snipers, just don't do it from the redline. I don't care if you are on a tower or at the top of some god forsaken mountain as long as I have the ability to come and get you it's cool. You do have the ability. It's called a sniper rifle. If the other team is organized enough to call in a tank at the beginning to thwart enemy tanks then your team has no organization and no tactics. If you accept your limitations you go beyond them
lee corwood Knights Of Ender Public Disorder. 75	Posted - 2013.12.24 09:02:00 - [18] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: I'll mention that some maps are better than others for this. Some have protected areas. Some do not. Some depend on (random factor that determines your ground spawn "socket" plugin. I'll also mention that this sort of thing supports my long time call for BIGGER ,rather than smaller maps. Where bigger maps, implies larger, non-enemy invadable redline areas. The bad examples: Ashland. Where the enemy can just run through your redline with LAVs and tanks, and your team has effectively zero chance of countering. in theory, some tanks could counter... except you'll never have time to receive delivery of them. Yep, this map has issues. I watched as two enemy tanks sat by both spawn areas. If they spawn on the ground, tank shoots them before they can find cover. If dropping from the MCC, other tank ran them over. If tank called in, red tank killed it before RDV let go. Of all maps, this one was designed the worst with the new vehicle improvements. Minmatar Logisis \| Heavy lover. Come get some badass Band-Aids from this chick
Kal Kronos L.O.T.I.S. 162	Posted - 2013.12.24 10:32:00 - [19] - Quote No redline, make 4 red zones per side that have clear paths of travel into the fighting area. Design the map so they can't be abused and are hard to contain people in, also there are 4 so should be hard to contain people anyways. Main problem is the level design of the old maps, they are pretty much horrible. What's not to love about the scrambler rifle, the thing is a precision weapon and at the same time a shotgun.
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1314	Posted - 2013.12.24 11:15:00 - [20] - Quote I think in Public Matches, killing someone from the redline should result in CONCORD tactical Nuking your arse. In Factional Warfare, killing someone from the redline should be tracked as friendly fire. In Planetary Conquest, remove ghe redline ENTIRELY. Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1

Operative 1171 Aajli Bragian Order Amarr Empire 938	Posted - 2013.12.24 11:56:00 - [21] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: Operative 1171 Aajli wrote: How about just put the redline behind the hills. it could be a viable answer, it would have to be such that there was still cover so the enemy couldn't stand on the hill shooting into the redline. The enemy already has a red line that extends forward of the friendly redline. Everything is the same as now only extend the map sides back a little further and dip the land down behind the hills that are usually already there. Do your part. Join the revolution. Sabotage FW. Help this game burn! BURN DUST 2014
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries 480	Posted - 2013.12.24 13:16:00 - [22] - Quote howard sanchez wrote: Just how much of a problem is the Red Line really? Do teams win games from behind the red line? No Do pub stompers hate that it is more difficult to persecute newbs that hide behind the red line? Yes Do players really hate being sniped ( by rifles or tanks) from behind the redline? Yes Is there an effective counter to being sniped? Yes, move to cover - there is a lot of cover when the shooter operates behind his REdLine. Do we really need CCP to change dust fundamentals because you can't clone a team out that hides behind thier line or because you get shot occasionally from there? No I'm a dropship pilot, there is no cover from redline railgun tanks, what little cover there is is far from any useful position. It can two shot me with nothing I can do to fight back. A sica doesn't even need skill points to deny me the map, and even with millions SP invested, and months of combat flying experience I cant even fight him. That's not fun for me, or any pilot I've talked to. So it should be fixed.
Mac Dac Wraith Shadow Guards D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 399	Posted - 2013.12.24 13:22:00 - [23] - Quote The redline must be removed. Good chat everyone, next subject. "We should take care not to make intellect our god; it has, of course, strong muscles, but no personality" Albert Einste
Mitch Laurence The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 7	Posted - 2013.12.24 16:54:00 - [24] - Quote Although the redline was frustrating to stationary players a while back, the redline now is not a problem whatsoever. CCP has done of decent job of obstructing the primary redline sweet spots, by adding various buildings. If your standing around you derserve to be shot period. I fly DS every match and no redline tanks arent bothering me at all. Yes I lose a ship every now and then, but again no problems whatsoever. People mentioned risk vs reward, you do realize that all your high risk actions are greatly rewarded with WP, redliners dont get much WP in relation to the ground pounding logibro hacks. Ill state it again redline snipers and rail tanks are getting less WP. If you dont like getting ohk in a scout try moving around or better yet add some tank... I've had to change or adapt my flight styles to counter rails, but I dont whine about how other people need to be forced to play my way to suit me. Asking ccp to change the game to suit your specific playstyle is flat out selfish and perhaps a bit arrogant to say the least. Think about it. "People will say we're in love." -Hannibal Lecter
gabriel login Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 92	Posted - 2013.12.24 17:17:00 - [25] - Quote why not make it so that if your in the redline and you kill someone the kill does not count as a kill you get no points on the person killed and the person gets no death on his score an loses no gear . same thing would happen if your redline camped when you die the person gets no points gets no kill and you lose no gear this would make redline camping or killing pointless. snipers and tanks would still lose gear because if thay did not thay would sit in the redline wait for a chance to get a kill move up take a shot then move back to safety.
Shaira Ilv Enna-Ress Maphia Clan Corporation 15	Posted - 2013.12.24 18:06:00 - [26] - Quote Ok, here we go again... GÇó Removing RL would result in massive spawn kill, so stop asking to remove it entirely. GÇó Nobody here mentioned Stationary Turrets which are placed in deep RL and can be used to fire against enemy vehicles and/or installations: they would basically become totally pointless. GÇó Invisible force fields are totally dumb and would only make people rage more than before, not to mention in that case I should be able to place my rifle's barrel slightly outside the RL and start shooting, and of course I cannot be hit or killed because my body is still behind the force field. The only logical request would be to change the redline along with the map, like someone unclearly suggested above: rlGûæGûæGûæ/\GûôGûôGûôGûô .____/_\____ I know it's not a great picture, but the Red Line finishes with the top of the mountain, so if you want to snipe with both Sniper Rifle or a tank, you must become a target for the enemy.
gabriel login Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 92	Posted - 2013.12.24 18:14:00 - [27] - Quote Shaira Ilv Enna-Ress wrote: Ok, here we go again... GÇó Removing RL would result in massive spawn kill, so stop asking to remove it entirely. GÇó Nobody here mentioned Stationary Turrets which are placed in deep RL and can be used to fire against enemy vehicles and/or installations: they would basically become totally pointless. GÇó Invisible force fields are totally dumb and would only make people rage more than before, not to mention in that case I should be able to place my rifle's barrel slightly outside the RL and start shooting, and of course I cannot be hit or killed because my body is still behind the force field. The only logical request would be to change the redline along with the map, like someone unclearly suggested above: rlGûæGûæGûæ/\GûôGûôGûôGûô .____/_\____ I know it's not a great picture, but the Red Line finishes with the top of the mountain, so if you want to snipe with both Sniper Rifle or a tank, you must become a target for the enemy. or just do what i said an its all pointless
Dustbunny Durrr ReD or DeaD 14	Posted - 2013.12.24 18:38:00 - [28] - Quote Shaira Ilv Enna-Ress wrote: Ok, here we go again... GÇó Removing RL would result in massive spawn kill, so stop asking to remove it entirely. GÇó Nobody here mentioned Stationary Turrets which are placed in deep RL and can be used to fire against enemy vehicles and/or installations: they would basically become totally pointless. GÇó Invisible force fields are totally dumb and would only make people rage more than before, not to mention in that case I should be able to place my rifle's barrel slightly outside the RL and start shooting, and of course I cannot be hit or killed because my body is still behind the force field. The only logical request would be to change the redline along with the map, like someone unclearly suggested above: rlGûæGûæGûæ/\GûôGûôGûôGûô .____/_\____ I know it's not a great picture, but the Red Line finishes with the top of the mountain, so if you want to snipe with both Sniper Rifle or a tank, you must become a target for the enemy. While this may stop redline sniping by infantry (which I think is the lesser issue since they can be counter sniped by a suit), it wouldn't stop railtank sniping. If hit, the tanks could just activate hardeners, and if the incoming damage is still serious, and the sniping rail tank cannot kill the aggressor, they could simply retreat 3 feet so that the mountain is now a shield blocking any additional damage coming their way.
CLONE117 planetary retaliation organisation 546	Posted - 2013.12.24 18:49:00 - [29] - Quote how about...replace the redzone with something better... like a base! or a good fortified position.. something that would make it hard for your enemies to even take over to stomp..
Kahn Zo Furyan Alpha 161	Posted - 2013.12.24 18:56:00 - [30] - Quote why not just go pitch to CCP about a few maps without redline. and then you anti redliners can go play in your own anti redline maps all by yourselves. That should be real fun for yourselves. And... Oh wait... Lets add to those anti redline maps....mmmm.... zero tolerance to snipers and tanks and... Oh, that be fun for you fellas! Pure Gallente



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