DUST Search - Opening the player market as a balancing tool for Factional Warfare

Oswald Rehnquist wrote:

Justicar Karnellia wrote:

Oswald Rehnquist wrote:

Tonight we had trouble just getting over 8-10 people in our matches. It was pretty bad.

I actually don't think the player market will fix the issue either. Low supply and high demand would turn the tide around but low supply and low demand do not.

All the corps are stacked on one side so the LP flowing is still very lopsided for people to turn it would still be low payout, for a corp to start turning around would equate to them losing against the opposing stacked side and furthermore losing their current standing in the other factions. For people to make the jump there would literally have to be a broken/op item in the other markets not available anywhere else. As it stand with the exception of the specialist weapons, the LP store is made for low sp characters who haven't maxed out on skills yet.

Was your battle amarr or caldari? I didn't realise the Amarr had it as bad as the Caldari...

Caldari, though the Amarr suffer from a lack of population as well. The blueberry effect is just the scrubs who have all 4 factions selected and thus represent a larger portion of the forces than the other factions due to the small player base. Though the blueberries are wising up and just aren't showing up anymore either.

At the end of the day, people don't like putting in effort and people don't like losing. And the value of high rewards with no risk is something that very few market forces can change beyond an exclusive and broken op item in a store.

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Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 252	Posted - 2013.12.17 08:29:00 - [1] - Quote Since I started participating in FW exclusively on the caldari side, I noticed several issues that are now common knowledge for anyone participating in FW - that certain factions have a numerical and organisational advantage, either through moral preferences , preference for certain weapons, or even preferences imposed by a corporation or alliance I believe this is quite acute with the Caldari side. It's quite common for matches to start with less than ten players on the caldari side. Matches like this quickly degenerate since those remaining, having no viable hope of victory, quickly leave the battle. This is equally true for matches where the opposition, if properly organised will quickly cap all points, leaving the outcome pretty much decided within the first few minutes. Again, people will start leaving, making any hope of a comeback unlikely. Now this is new Eden, and FW is pretty much unregulated, which is a good thing, leaving players to decide which faction they fight for, and therefore which faction has the advantage. I believe, despite its current shortcomings, that FW in Dust 514 shouldn't be dabbled with too much. I only say this because I think this will auto-regulate itself once the player market is introduced to dust, there will be such a chronic shortage of the Caldari "Specialist" state weapons (Rail, swarm and sniper) that prices for these on the open market will be statospheric. On the other hand, I imagine the federation specialist Duvolle will not command such a high price. In theory, forces of supply and demand should prevail and because of the high use of certain weapons (ex. rail rifle), to lower prices some corps may choose to grind caldari for some time to accumulate enough LP to build up a viable stock for PC or simply to make profit. The Caldari will start winning again in FW, the price of its weapons will go down, etc. Having said all this, I do believe two minor changes are worthwhile to stop battles emptying out early on: - Tweak the matchmaking to prevent matches starting unless the queue is full on both sides. - Increase the LP for the losing side by a fraction (up for discussion, but lets say 25%) to motivate people to fight until the end instead of abandoning the match in 5 minutes. Apart from that, hurry up and open the player market. :)
Vanell Sin Dust2Dust. Top Men. 24	Posted - 2013.12.17 08:38:00 - [2] - Quote Nice post. Im playing since Uprising 1.0 and still have 8m SP.Im I doing something wrong?
Lorhak Gannarsein 736	Posted - 2013.12.17 08:41:00 - [3] - Quote If only there were some way that Amarr would be balanced like that... No-one wants ScR or LR except us anyway. Amarr has the crappiest rewards out of any faction. >Cosgar: You know, tanks are actually paper thin once their modules are in cooldown.
Oswald Rehnquist 907	Posted - 2013.12.17 08:42:00 - [4] - Quote Tonight we had trouble just getting over 8-10 people in our matches. It was pretty bad. I actually don't think the player market will fix the issue either. Low supply and high demand would turn the tide around but low supply and low demand do not. All the corps are stacked on one side so the LP flowing is still very lopsided for people to turn it would still be low payout, for a corp to start turning around would equate to them losing against the opposing stacked side and furthermore losing their current standing in the other factions. For people to make the jump there would literally have to be a broken/op item in the other markets not available anywhere else. As it stand with the exception of the specialist weapons, the LP store is made for low sp characters who haven't maxed out on skills yet. Below 28 dB
Rasatsu Much Crying Old Experts 955	Posted - 2013.12.17 08:59:00 - [5] - Quote The issue is there's no incentive to fight for a losing faction, causing a positive feedback loop where one side gets more and more organized participants. Since it becomes hard to get in a match for the organized side this reinforces the effect by excluding casual players. What is needed imo is to give those playing for a weak faction sufficient LP even on losses so as to make it worth fighting even against odds.
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 255	Posted - 2013.12.17 09:03:00 - [6] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: If only there were some way that Amarr would be balanced like that... No-one wants ScR or LR except us anyway. Amarr has the crappiest rewards out of any faction. Hey there. I haven't yet picked a 2nd side for the FW but I hear Amarr has the same kind of problems as the Caldari (to what extent, I do not know, haven't played enough matches to confirm). I do think the scrambler rifle is attractive so it might command a nice price, but it's true that the laser rifle is pretty much unloved so I don't see it commanding a high price unless they buff it somehow.
Kasote Denzara A Vulture 1378	Posted - 2013.12.17 09:03:00 - [7] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Amarr has the crappiest rewards out of any faction. I want the Commando, the Scrambler Rifle, and maybe the Laser Rifle (since I'm theory-crafting a few builds around it) along with maybe Scrambler Pistols and armor reps. So, no, they're not the crappiest rewards. My pledge to the Federation and my own ideals prevent me from fighting for the slavers. "Go ahead and dual tank. My Commando dual ganks." -Kasote Denzara You can find me in Gallente's FW. I smell of freedom.
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 255	Posted - 2013.12.17 09:05:00 - [8] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: The issue is there's no incentive to fight for a losing faction, causing a positive feedback loop where one side gets more and more organized participants. Since it becomes hard to get in a match for the organized side this reinforces the effect by excluding casual players. What is needed imo is to give those playing for a weak faction sufficient LP even on losses so as to make it worth fighting even against odds. Yes I agree. I think if it's "over" regulated it kills the sandbox aspect. I do feel the market will really help as certain items will be in demand more than others. I think the combat rifle and rail rifle are two very popular weapons right now so their respective factions and users will be clamoring for low CPU/PG copies of those. The assault rifle is also very popular, but so many people are fighting for the gallente there will really be a glut of these on the market. I don't mind this as it means it should (again, in theory) produce cheap copies of the specialist duvolle, which I use now and then so I'll pick up a few copies.
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 255	Posted - 2013.12.17 09:08:00 - [9] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Tonight we had trouble just getting over 8-10 people in our matches. It was pretty bad. I actually don't think the player market will fix the issue either. Low supply and high demand would turn the tide around but low supply and low demand do not. All the corps are stacked on one side so the LP flowing is still very lopsided for people to turn it would still be low payout, for a corp to start turning around would equate to them losing against the opposing stacked side and furthermore losing their current standing in the other factions. For people to make the jump there would literally have to be a broken/op item in the other markets not available anywhere else. As it stand with the exception of the specialist weapons, the LP store is made for low sp characters who haven't maxed out on skills yet. Was your battle amarr or caldari? I didn't realise the Amarr had it as bad as the Caldari...
Lorhak Gannarsein 738	Posted - 2013.12.17 09:11:00 - [10] - Quote Kasote Denzara wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Amarr has the crappiest rewards out of any faction. I want the Commando, the Scrambler Rifle, and maybe the Laser Rifle (since I'm theory-crafting a few builds around it) along with maybe Scrambler Pistols and armor reps. So, no, they're not the crappiest rewards. My pledge to the Federation and my own ideals prevent me from fighting for the slavers. Okay, maybe you want them :P But commando is generally considered a gimp suit, people think (though I disagree) that ScR is outclassed by RR, RR is utterly pointless at the moment (even Green Living has apparently given up on them) and ScP is generally considered inferior to SMG (which is not true, when you've got a skilled pistolier). And who wants heavy suits right now anyway? Min has REs, which are big right now, CR and SMG('nuff said). At least Caldari has Gunnlogis and RRs... >Cosgar: You know, tanks are actually paper thin once their modules are in cooldown.

Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 262	Posted - 2013.12.17 09:14:00 - [11] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Kasote Denzara wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Amarr has the crappiest rewards out of any faction. I want the Commando, the Scrambler Rifle, and maybe the Laser Rifle (since I'm theory-crafting a few builds around it) along with maybe Scrambler Pistols and armor reps. So, no, they're not the crappiest rewards. My pledge to the Federation and my own ideals prevent me from fighting for the slavers. Okay, maybe you want them :P But commando is generally considered a gimp suit, people think (though I disagree) that ScR is outclassed by RR, RR is utterly pointless at the moment (even Green Living has apparently given up on them) and ScP is generally considered inferior to SMG (which is not true, when you've got a skilled pistolier). And who wants heavy suits right now anyway? Min has REs, which are big right now, CR and SMG('nuff said). At least Caldari has Gunnlogis and RRs... Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the only "specialist" gear now is weapons right? I think if they start rolling "specialist" versions of suits and other things then that might sway more people to certain factions. right now, all the other rewards are like the aurum rewards, a less-skilled person can use a higher tier, but they don't really given an advantage over the ISK version.
Oswald Rehnquist 908	Posted - 2013.12.17 09:19:00 - [12] - Quote Justicar Karnellia wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Tonight we had trouble just getting over 8-10 people in our matches. It was pretty bad. I actually don't think the player market will fix the issue either. Low supply and high demand would turn the tide around but low supply and low demand do not. All the corps are stacked on one side so the LP flowing is still very lopsided for people to turn it would still be low payout, for a corp to start turning around would equate to them losing against the opposing stacked side and furthermore losing their current standing in the other factions. For people to make the jump there would literally have to be a broken/op item in the other markets not available anywhere else. As it stand with the exception of the specialist weapons, the LP store is made for low sp characters who haven't maxed out on skills yet. Was your battle amarr or caldari? I didn't realise the Amarr had it as bad as the Caldari... Caldari, though the Amarr suffer from a lack of population as well. The blueberry effect is just the scrubs who have all 4 factions selected and thus represent a larger portion of the forces than the other factions due to the small player base. Though the blueberries are wising up and just aren't showing up anymore either. At the end of the day, people don't like putting in effort and people don't like losing. And the value of high rewards with no risk is something that very few market forces can change beyond an exclusive and broken op item in a store. Below 28 dB
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 262	Posted - 2013.12.17 09:20:00 - [13] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Justicar Karnellia wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Tonight we had trouble just getting over 8-10 people in our matches. It was pretty bad. I actually don't think the player market will fix the issue either. Low supply and high demand would turn the tide around but low supply and low demand do not. All the corps are stacked on one side so the LP flowing is still very lopsided for people to turn it would still be low payout, for a corp to start turning around would equate to them losing against the opposing stacked side and furthermore losing their current standing in the other factions. For people to make the jump there would literally have to be a broken/op item in the other markets not available anywhere else. As it stand with the exception of the specialist weapons, the LP store is made for low sp characters who haven't maxed out on skills yet. Was your battle amarr or caldari? I didn't realise the Amarr had it as bad as the Caldari... Caldari, though the Amarr suffer from a lack of population as well. The blueberry effect is just the scrubs who have all 4 factions selected and thus represent a larger portion of the forces than the other factions due to the small player base. Though the blueberries are wising up and just aren't showing up anymore either. At the end of the day, people don't like putting in effort and people don't like losing. And the value of high rewards with no risk is something that very few market forces can change beyond an exclusive and broken op item in a store. Ah yes, very good point - I forgot to add this as an extra modification - not allowing newberries into the faction warfare. I will go edit my post now...
Matoncito Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2013.12.17 09:55:00 - [14] - Quote I think blocking new players until they have reached some kind of minimum is a good idea.
Aikuchi Tomaru Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1297	Posted - 2013.12.17 10:10:00 - [15] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: The issue is there's no incentive to fight for a losing faction, causing a positive feedback loop where one side gets more and more organized participants. Since it becomes hard to get in a match for the organized side this reinforces the effect by excluding casual players. What is needed imo is to give those playing for a weak faction sufficient LP even on losses so as to make it worth fighting even against odds. How about Loot? More than often on Caldari Side you are able to get some proto or at least advanced gear as salvage. If I could sell that stuff I would probably start using better gear again, even if Caldari are always losing. The introduction of the player market could balance FW at least a little bit. After it is introduced CCP can think about how to balance it further.
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 264	Posted - 2013.12.17 10:19:00 - [16] - Quote Aikuchi Tomaru wrote: Rasatsu wrote: The issue is there's no incentive to fight for a losing faction, causing a positive feedback loop where one side gets more and more organized participants. Since it becomes hard to get in a match for the organized side this reinforces the effect by excluding casual players. What is needed imo is to give those playing for a weak faction sufficient LP even on losses so as to make it worth fighting even against odds. How about Loot? More than often on Caldari Side you are able to get some proto or at least advanced gear as salvage. If I could sell that stuff I would probably start using better gear again, even if Caldari are always losing. The introduction of the player market could balance FW at least a little bit. After it is introduced CCP can think about how to balance it further. True, I didn't think of that. At the moment I don't event register that I'm getting salvage because if you can't use it in one of your existing fits, it might as well not exist. I think people have inventories that are bursting with items they'd love to get rid of come the secondary market.
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 264	Posted - 2013.12.17 11:24:00 - [17] - Quote Matoncito wrote: I think blocking new players until they have reached some kind of minimum is a good idea. Yep... definitely.
Foley Jones The Exemplars Top Men. 398	Posted - 2013.12.17 12:04:00 - [18] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: If only there were some way that Amarr would be balanced like that... No-one wants ScR or LR except us anyway. Amarr has the crappiest rewards out of any faction. Dude SCRs are still beast MY SP BRINGS ALL THE MERCS TO THE CHANNEL AND THEY ARE LIKE "Do you wanna squad up?" DAMN RIGHT I WANNA SQUAD UP
fawkuima juggalo Eternal Beings 253	Posted - 2013.12.17 12:15:00 - [19] - Quote +1 Dropship auto leveling and THE SOLUTION
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 267	Posted - 2013.12.17 13:05:00 - [20] - Quote Foley Jones wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: If only there were some way that Amarr would be balanced like that... No-one wants ScR or LR except us anyway. Amarr has the crappiest rewards out of any faction. Dude SCRs are still beast They still melt my shield tanked dropsuit in half a second! :P

John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 714	Posted - 2013.12.17 21:47:00 - [21] - Quote This idea sounds familiar somehow! lol. Link to a similar thread in feedback/requests, with a few other ideas too. Would like to hear your feedback "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
Akdhar Saif Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 96	Posted - 2013.12.17 22:17:00 - [22] - Quote +1 Agree with the idea although I don't see it coming anytime soon. CCP seem to be apprehensive about adding the Open Market although I'm of the opinion that the more they have to work with the easier it is to balance.
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 276	Posted - 2013.12.18 07:35:00 - [23] - Quote I do understand the complexity of adding it - but instead of trying to link both EVE and Dust 514 markets straight away I feel they could build an isolated Dust 514 marketplace which can later be appended to the EVE one. This should reduce the complexity, but again, CCP are so opaque about the development of Dust now it is really difficult to get a handle on what their priorities are.
GET ATMESON Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 193	Posted - 2013.12.18 11:06:00 - [24] - Quote Sorry to say this but the open market is SOONtm. Dont worry about it. The open market will be on the ps5 Heavys only have 2 heavy guns. Please dont turn the NERF bat on them. Give heavys more suits or guns soonGäó
jenza aranda BetaMax. 2434	Posted - 2013.12.18 11:08:00 - [25] - Quote SoonGäó Dust 514 101 // Dust 514 Wiki
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 277	Posted - 2013.12.18 11:12:00 - [26] - Quote Well I don't even know what's on the roadmap for the next month - the whole process is incredibly opaque to me.
Izlare Lenix FREE AGENTS LP 37	Posted - 2013.12.18 11:19:00 - [27] - Quote I've said it before, payout LP the same way ISK is paid in the pub matches. Number one player gets the biggest chunk and LP payout gets smaller down the list. That way, the top few dudes actually trying to win get better LP while the ass holes and cowards hiding in the red zone get minimal LP. That would at least encourage me not to quit a game I know I'm going to lose. The broke ass mechanic now that pays everyone on your team the same LP it's stupid and is only encouraging more people to put forth no effort especially if the other team is stronger which is almost always the case when playing for Caldari.
gabriel login Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 89	Posted - 2013.12.18 11:20:00 - [28] - Quote the market wont be in this game for at least 1-2 more years
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1372	Posted - 2013.12.18 13:50:00 - [29] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: The issue is there's no incentive to fight for a losing faction, causing a positive feedback loop where one side gets more and more organized participants. Since it becomes hard to get in a match for the organized side this reinforces the effect by excluding casual players. What is needed imo is to give those playing for a weak faction sufficient LP even on losses so as to make it worth fighting even against odds. I like winners getting rewarded for their efforts, but i could also get on board with your idea if the LP payouts to losers were bssed on WP earned. It makes sense that Faction Militias would be trying to retain the better mercs regardless of win or loss. I support SP rollover.
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 277	Posted - 2013.12.18 13:57:00 - [30] - Quote Yes, if the payouts for losers are increased somehow - either through payout based on WP rather than just a flat rate regardless of effort then it might force less people to stay until the end... Although I think you'd naturally have to factor in this payout for winners too. Not sure what Foxfour would think about that.....

Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1372	Posted - 2013.12.18 14:07:00 - [31] - Quote Listening to CCP LeKjart's presentation from EVE Vegas, i'd have to lay my money on a DUST player market fairly early in the New Year. We're not at critical mass yet, but things are warming up. Once CCP get a few more of their building blocks in place things are going to ramp up very quickly. We will get the mind-blowing gameplay that DUST always promised. My primary concern re DUST is that Team Kong be given the resources they need to make sure that the quality of the hands-on gameplay/mechanics matches the mind-blowing gameplay that full integration into New Eden will bring. I believe this is important because DUST's reviews and reputation cannot be much different than it's fundamental FPS mechanics. The gameplay potential of DUST is virtually(ha-ha) unlimited, but perception of the mechanics can and will hobble the game, and exclude some of the elite FPS playerbase. This must not happen - DUST must be a viable destination and investment for the best of the best. Invest in Team Kong. I support SP rollover.
Cass Caul 543	Posted - 2013.12.18 17:40:00 - [32] - Quote Justicar Karnellia wrote: . - Have a new player minimum SP or WP before joining faction warfare. Lets say 5 million SP OR 100,000 war points. This will mean he is at least experienced, understands how the weapons and fittings work, and knows how to cap a point. I like the OP but this is the only part I have a problem with. It's those lower SP guys that need to do FW so they have get Federation/State/Imperial/Republic items. They need them, or would make best use of them, the most. That, and I have a ton of alts-one for each suit so 12 total character- and only two have over 5M SP. I know exactly how to play this game, and I continuously come out in the top half of FW matches with those characters that don't have the SP for a single tier 5 equipment, module, weapon, or suit. Dude, those aren't low SP or low WP players. There are just a lot of people that are very bad at this game regardless of the hours they put in. +Éß¦ëddGêÇ -çou -Äll+É-çoGö¦ A girl, on the internet?! I roll to disbelieve.
knight of 6 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 852	Posted - 2013.12.18 17:46:00 - [33] - Quote quality post. worth the read. "God favors the side with the best artillery" ~ Napoleon Ko6, scout, tanker. CLOSED BETA VET
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 282	Posted - 2013.12.19 09:22:00 - [34] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Justicar Karnellia wrote: . - Have a new player minimum SP or WP before joining faction warfare. Lets say 5 million SP OR 100,000 war points. This will mean he is at least experienced, understands how the weapons and fittings work, and knows how to cap a point. I like the OP but this is the only part I have a problem with. It's those lower SP guys that need to do FW so they have get Federation/State/Imperial/Republic items. They need them, or would make best use of them, the most. That, and I have a ton of alts-one for each suit so 12 total character- and only two have over 5M SP. I know exactly how to play this game, and I continuously come out in the top half of FW matches with those characters that don't have the SP for a single tier 5 equipment, module, weapon, or suit. Dude, those aren't low SP or low WP players. There are just a lot of people that are very bad at this game regardless of the hours they put in. Hey there - you have a valid point. It's true that SP and WP are not the sole indicator of skill and there are many indicators we could use (time played, Kill/Death ratio, total kills, etc.) I guess I just used SP and WP as a baseline because CCP already have this implemented in the academy. I think this just pushes to the fore that there is no structured tutorial, and a person coming straight out of the academy who just sees faction contracts and public contracts and just joins whichever.... will not understand the stakes of factional warfare and the fact that friendly fire is enabled (a warning message really is needed here). Maybe a little cutscene describing factional warfare for new characters would be ideal. It's true that some of the gear is useful for less experience players due to the lower skill requirements of some equipment, but I have trouble finding a middle ground.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 2278	Posted - 2013.12.19 15:43:00 - [35] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Amarr has the crappiest rewards out of any faction. Your $#!tting me right? Holy Fudgenipples!!! MY HMG WORKS!!! IT ACTUALLY WORKS!!! \o/
p q Zylak's Used Clones 33	Posted - 2013.12.23 17:25:00 - [36] - Quote I love the new faction contracts and faction warfare. Dust is now finally linked to Eve in a meaningful way for every Dust player. Still not sold on the loyalty market and item thing; but hey, I'm not complainin either, it's a new angle I continue to explore. As for saying Amarr has the crappiest racial bonues, the assault LR bonus is HUGE; my secondary char is Amarr LR for that reason. Gallente got hosed forever until the armor buffs - I feel for those guys. They took their lumps proudly
nakaya indigene 0uter.Heaven 105	Posted - 2013.12.23 21:21:00 - [37] - Quote I think the biggest issue that is holding the player market back is aurum items. CCP made their business model around aurum items. A good way to mitigate this is to drop the skill requirement for aurum items to level 3 or 2. And keep faction stuff at 4. Also to not let aur items on the market. It will let ccp make money and not kill the economy when it get merged to the eve one. Its just a theory tho The Jove espier


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