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So now that the tables have turned...

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Lorhak Gannarsein 739	Posted - 2013.12.17 14:06:00 - [31] - Quote God Hates Lags wrote: I remember way back in Uprising 1.whatever, when all the tankers were complaining that a militia swarm launcher should never be able to take out a proto tank. So now that proto swarms can no longer take out militia tanks I'm sure they'll all be in favor of a buff to swarms or a nerd to militia tanks. Both of these things, yes. It's frustrating that my SP investment is rendered null by these MLT vehicles, and that the only real edge I have is experience. I'd also be in favour of a buff to swarm lock range, and after, say, a week of live testing, depending on results, a damage increase of say 25 per missile. >Cosgar: You know, tanks are actually paper thin once their modules are in cooldown.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 2185	Posted - 2013.12.17 14:09:00 - [32] - Quote Roger Cordill wrote: Obodiah Garro wrote: Tankers say this is balanced because AV is completely useless at this point, which makes sense because tankers are usually pissants anyway, oh how I long to see my old HAV rivals who had true skill... nae they all left the game cause CCP drops the ball/ goes blind too often. message from Godin: Yet I can use it. I wonder why I can, the pilot, yet the supposed AV'ers can't anymore. Maybe because they relied on crutches to win I guess I could say the same about scrubs BSing about how their HAVs couldn't survive PRO AV, when mine easily could. DUST 514 just went full COD. Never go full COD.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 1962	Posted - 2013.12.17 14:09:00 - [33] - Quote God Hates Lags wrote: I remember way back in Uprising 1.whatever, when all the tankers were complaining that a militia swarm launcher should never be able to take out a proto tank. So now that proto swarms can no longer take out militia tanks I'm sure they'll all be in favor of a buff to swarms or a nerd to militia tanks. Ive seen proto swarms take out militia tanks Also we dont have proto tanks, just the mods and turrets
Edmund Dantez 1	Posted - 2013.12.17 14:11:00 - [34] - Quote Slag Emberforge wrote: Mossellia Delt wrote: L M F A O how bad are you that you cant kill an HAV. Jesus man, they're not easy to kill but they aint exacly hard. Ran a squad with some guys and we killed together 27 tanks in the one match. Bolded the important bit -- it should not take teamwork to kill a HAV. 1 v 1 is hard mode for AV, 2 or more AV should make easy work of them. . You are way wrong..... It SHOULD take team work to kill am HAV. That's the problem nowdays. No one teams up against tanks and tanks over rule. 2 advanced seems will kill any tank and if it has no hardeners.. They are screwed. All tanks need buffed is the NOS. It is to fast and unfair for foot soldiers. NOS should be a lab thing only and torque for tanks. Besides that they're fine. Many a little price increase. I have an alt tanker and I have a foot soldier so I know how both sidew feel. GÇ£If it is ones lot to be cast among fools, one must learn foolishness.-The Count of Monte Cristo
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 2185	Posted - 2013.12.17 14:14:00 - [35] - Quote Mossellia Delt wrote: Slag Emberforge wrote: Mossellia Delt wrote: L M F A O how bad are you that you cant kill an HAV. Jesus man, they're not easy to kill but they aint exacly hard. Ran a squad with some guys and we killed together 27 tanks in the one match. Bolded the important bit -- it should not take teamwork to kill a HAV. 1 v 1 is hard mode for AV, 2 or more AV should make easy work of them. uhhh, no HAVs shouldnt be solo'd unless by a VERY prepaired and good player. By prepaired I mean, RE and Proxies on the road, Hives set up for AV nades and a Swarm or Plasma cannon in hand. LOL RE/Proxies are situational And why should you not be able to be soloed when you yourself can run solo? You shouldn't, and that's the problem. DUST 514 just went full COD. Never go full COD.
calisk galern BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 1547	Posted - 2013.12.17 14:20:00 - [36] - Quote Edmund Dantez wrote: Slag Emberforge wrote: Mossellia Delt wrote: L M F A O how bad are you that you cant kill an HAV. Jesus man, they're not easy to kill but they aint exacly hard. Ran a squad with some guys and we killed together 27 tanks in the one match. Bolded the important bit -- it should not take teamwork to kill a HAV. 1 v 1 is hard mode for AV, 2 or more AV should make easy work of them. . You are way wrong..... It SHOULD take team work to kill am HAV. That's the problem nowdays. No one teams up against tanks and tanks over rule. 2 advanced seems will kill any tank and if it has no hardeners.. They are screwed. All tanks need buffed is the NOS. It is to fast and unfair for foot soldiers. NOS should be a lab thing only and torque for tanks. Besides that they're fine. Many a little price increase. I have an alt tanker and I have a foot soldier so I know how both sidew feel. you also forgot that tanks team up easier then AV's. First of nobody ever will be speccing into swarms and the only people that have proto swarms now wouldn't spec back in if they had a respec. So don't expect many AV's to pop up in the near future expect more people to spec into tanks because that's the only answer to tanks. then those players will become tank trolls as well. finally tanks team up as well, sure 3+ av's might kill a tank during his short window while his mods are down, BUT how about when their are 4 tanks rushing your position, how do you get a tank when his modules are down in that situation. the ease of access to tanks, combined with the relative impotence/pathetic nature of the AV that requires 10's of millions of sp invested, and the fact that a decent proto av fit will cost 4 times that of a tank. there's no form of balance between the two
chase rowland The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 122	Posted - 2013.12.17 14:22:00 - [37] - Quote Slag Emberforge wrote: Mossellia Delt wrote: L M F A O how bad are you that you cant kill an HAV. Jesus man, they're not easy to kill but they aint exacly hard. Ran a squad with some guys and we killed together 27 tanks in the one match. Bolded the important bit -- it should not take teamwork to kill a HAV. 1 v 1 is hard mode for AV, 2 or more AV should make easy work of them. so are you saying you should be able to kill 27 tanks by yourself? HAAAAAAAAH!!!! WHAT A TROLL!!!!!!!
calisk galern BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 1547	Posted - 2013.12.17 14:24:00 - [38] - Quote chase rowland wrote: Slag Emberforge wrote: Mossellia Delt wrote: L M F A O how bad are you that you cant kill an HAV. Jesus man, they're not easy to kill but they aint exacly hard. Ran a squad with some guys and we killed together 27 tanks in the one match. Bolded the important bit -- it should not take teamwork to kill a HAV. 1 v 1 is hard mode for AV, 2 or more AV should make easy work of them. so are you saying you should be able to kill 27 tanks by yourself? HAAAAAAAAH!!!! WHAT A TROLL!!!!!!! if his squad killed 27 hav's, they must of been horrible pilots, I really don't believe it. I'm a ** pilot and i've only ever died once to AV, and it was when I was testing the limits of my armor fit. I die to other tanks all the time because i'm a ** pilot and have been using tanks for only 4 days but AV is a joke
Obodiah Garro Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 478	Posted - 2013.12.17 16:17:00 - [39] - Quote calisk galern wrote: you also forgot that tanks team up easier then AV's. First off nobody ever will be speccing into swarms and the only people that have proto swarms now wouldn't spec back in if they had a respec. So don't expect many AV's to pop up in the near future expect more people to spec into tanks because that's the only answer to tanks. then those players will become tank trolls as well. Pretty much this, I have max SL skills, if i had a respec i would get rid of them in a heart beat. I am totally bewildered by the fact instead of trying to reach balance, CCP boosted HAV to moron levels and at the same time crushed AV to the ground. I could be wrong maybe they did extensive testing on singularity server or whatever but the fact 1.7 got delivered in this state just once again cements my feeling that CCP dont have a clue when it comes to this game at all. Think about it, Dust is at a generous most 3rd tier of FPS these days, wtf are these clowns doing?
Anarchide Greedy Bastards 1657	Posted - 2013.12.17 16:52:00 - [40] - Quote True Adamance wrote: God Hates Lags wrote: I remember way back in Uprising 1.whatever, when all the tankers were complaining that a militia swarm launcher should never be able to take out a proto tank. So now that proto swarms can no longer take out militia tanks I'm sure they'll all be in favor of a buff to swarms or a nerd to militia tanks. I had two canny AVers take down one of my Soma yesterday. The pair with Wyrkomi Swarms hit me when my Hardeners were down and I was engaging two red dots at about 40+ m....how hard is it to grasp the periods of vulnerability? As a tanker I know I need to attack within those periods since my HAV is weaker than a Gunlogi or Madrugar... Windows are not quite exploitable as the tank usually scurries away if you manage to damage it and comes back seconds later fully resplenished with hardeners to back up. The Swarmer however have now a lot less of ammo. Greedy Bastards' Hate Lord

Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1250	Posted - 2013.12.17 16:58:00 - [41] - Quote Roger Cordill wrote: God Hates Lags wrote: I remember way back in Uprising 1.whatever, when all the tankers were complaining that a militia swarm launcher should never be able to take out a proto tank. So now that proto swarms can no longer take out militia tanks I'm sure they'll all be in favor of a buff to swarms or a nerd to militia tanks. message from Godin: 1: Never has been a "PROTO HAV", and probably won't ever be. I'm assuming you were referring to the Enforcers, which were MLT HAV's with a extra slot, costing around 2.1-2.6 mil ISK a pop. That was a problem. 2: Bullshit, as I've done it. Make it's because you, and the majority of the community just sucks ass at AV? Look, HAV's as well as DS's and LAV's even have changed drastically. That means old techniques for the most part won't work anymore. Yet, NOBODY wants to adjust. No biggy, it's human nature to not want to. Humans hate change. Once a human get used to something, they don't want to change. But we must resist that urge to resist, accept it, and move on. TL;DR: I can do it, and so can you. Breaking something instead of fixing it the right way by looking at the specific issues is stupid. Then you must have lady luck on your side because unless those tankers are as thick as two short planks, you are have to be driving a tank, which isn't AV! Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 322	Posted - 2013.12.17 17:02:00 - [42] - Quote chase rowland wrote: Slag Emberforge wrote: Mossellia Delt wrote: L M F A O how bad are you that you cant kill an HAV. Jesus man, they're not easy to kill but they aint exacly hard. Ran a squad with some guys and we killed together 27 tanks in the one match. Bolded the important bit -- it should not take teamwork to kill a HAV. 1 v 1 is hard mode for AV, 2 or more AV should make easy work of them. so are you saying you should be able to kill 27 tanks by yourself? HAAAAAAAAH!!!! WHAT A TROLL!!!!!!! Lol bro do you even math?
Anarchide Greedy Bastards 1657	Posted - 2013.12.17 17:08:00 - [43] - Quote Quote: *Mathematical!* Greedy Bastards' Hate Lord
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1889	Posted - 2013.12.17 17:13:00 - [44] - Quote Generally if they were running tanks in 1.6 they are worth talking to, and will provide good insights on the AV vs Tank balance. If they suddenly became a hard core tanker in 1.7, I donGÇÖt bother trying to argue with them. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else, there is the Learning Coalition.
Seymor Krelborn DUST University Ivy League 1628	Posted - 2013.12.17 17:16:00 - [45] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Generally if they were running tanks in 1.6 they are worth talking to, and will provide good insights on the AV vs Tank balance. If they suddenly became a hard core tanker in 1.7, I donGÇÖt bother trying to argue with them. lol its the old tankers we have to thank for this debacle with their incessant QQ.... no you cant trust most tankers... they are the biggest babies and the most self entitled of all dust players. CCp's newest joke, making setting off your own remote explosives in FW FF... awesome job ccp.
knight of 6 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 849	Posted - 2013.12.17 17:28:00 - [46] - Quote God Hates Lags wrote: I remember way back in Uprising 1.whatever, when all the tankers were complaining that a militia swarm launcher should never be able to take out a proto tank. So now that proto swarms can no longer take out militia tanks I'm sure they'll all be in favor of a buff to swarms or a nerd to militia tanks. swarms need a buff, I'll say it, and be proud of it. swarms are light weapons yet they are no good for tanking down light vehicles. they need to be faster and have a longer range as well as a damage buff, I have always see swarms and light av as a counter to light vehicles, not heavy ones. swarms should be excellent anti-dropship and lav weapons while struggling with bigger targets. they require a small SP investment and most infantry men should have one. what about the tyranny of tanks?? heavy assault vehicle VS heavy weapon. both require a large SP investment. the notable exception is of course MLT tanks which I think need a slight adjustment to tone down their effectiveness. there is a MLT forge and heavy combo available to every merc for 0 SP, this should be the counter argument to the MLT tank requiring 0 SP, but as I have said, the MLT tank needs adjustment. any merc that doesn't have a MLT heavy w/ forge should make one. that's not me being a snobby tanker, thats just good advice, I'm a scout and I have one. semi-obviously there needs to be more heavy AV to counter tanks, ask any heavy and they'll tell you that they have been starving for new equipment for builds now. for the balance I have just laid out it is critical that more heavy AV hits the field soon. EDIT: and that heavies become viable to carry that AV as a natural counter to tanks. seriously those guys need a buff that sticks. "God favors the side with the best artillery" ~ Napoleon Ko6, scout, tanker. CLOSED BETA VET
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 330	Posted - 2013.12.17 17:28:00 - [47] - Quote Nerf the militia tanks raw HP. Its the same as an unfitted standard tank. Their speed is getting nerfed, CCP confirmed this for tomorrow. A protoed out Gunnlogi should wipe the floor. A sica should crumple without much effort.
Dexter307 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar 666	Posted - 2013.12.17 18:04:00 - [48] - Quote I've started using a militia tank and I've been getting 20+ kills a match with no deaths in the last 8 matches I advise everyone to start using militia tanks as there cheap, require 0 sp, and are easy mode.
Cosgar ParagonX 8834	Posted - 2013.12.17 18:13:00 - [49] - Quote Ever stop to think that the problem is people are expecting light weapon AV to be super effective against a Heavy Attack Vehicle? Also, have you seen the scrubs that call themselves dedicated AV? They wouldn't survive a day back when we had real HAV and they would probably **** down their legs at the sight of a Segaris or Surya. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 323	Posted - 2013.12.17 18:21:00 - [50] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Ever stop to think that the problem is people are expecting light weapon AV to be super effective against a Heavy Attack Vehicle? Also, have you seen the scrubs that call themselves dedicated AV? They wouldn't survive a day back when we had real HAV and they would probably **** down their legs at the sight of a Segaris or Surya. I don't get it, what's with all the AV hate, is it just because swarms are easy mode? I don't run them but in my view an anti-vehicle weapon is just that, an anti-vehicle weapon. I am not saying they should OHK a HAV but they shouldn't be able to just be shrugged off either, provided there's no hardened active. As for alternative tactics and being "real AV": _______________________ I've started specializing into LAVs, I used them frequently sans modules pre-1.7, but as the game has changed, so must I if I want to win. I'm just seeing the line between anti-vehicle and veteran player get fuzzier and fuzzier, I should not need to put 10-12mil in an AV setup and then drop a few more mil into vehicles to counter something that costs 0 SP. The alternative is to put ANY points into tanks and completely throw away all previous skills. and be able to kill everything with no real investment. Just doesn't make sense.

knight of 6 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 849	Posted - 2013.12.17 18:24:00 - [51] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Ever stop to think that the problem is people are expecting light weapon AV to be super effective against a Heavy Attack Vehicle? Also, have you seen the scrubs that call themselves dedicated AV? They wouldn't survive a day back when we had real HAV and they would probably **** down their legs at the sight of a Segaris or Surya. I think that rather frequently... and to be fair, of 10 fit I only ever lost 6 Suryas, those things were ungodly. the record(personal) still stands at 22 deployments without casualty. I lost 5 of the 6 to orbital strikes. "God favors the side with the best artillery" ~ Napoleon Ko6, scout, tanker. CLOSED BETA VET
Seymor Krelborn DUST University Ivy League 1639	Posted - 2013.12.17 18:47:00 - [52] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Ever stop to think that the problem is people are expecting light weapon AV to be super effective against a Heavy Attack Vehicle? Also, have you seen the scrubs that call themselves dedicated AV? They wouldn't survive a day back when we had real HAV and they would probably **** down their legs at the sight of a Segaris or Surya. well 1st off that light weapon can only lovk vehicles and second there are plenty of real life anti tank weapons that are light... hell, 1 grenade can take a tank out in RL...grenades are awfully light.... CCp's newest joke, making setting off your own remote explosives in FW FF... awesome job ccp.
Cosgar ParagonX 8835	Posted - 2013.12.17 18:51:00 - [53] - Quote Seymor Krelborn wrote: Cosgar wrote: Ever stop to think that the problem is people are expecting light weapon AV to be super effective against a Heavy Attack Vehicle? Also, have you seen the scrubs that call themselves dedicated AV? They wouldn't survive a day back when we had real HAV and they would probably **** down their legs at the sight of a Segaris or Surya. well 1st off that light weapon can only lovk vehicles and second there are plenty of real life anti tank weapons that are light... hell, 1 grenade can take a tank out in RL...grenades are awfully light.... Please don't bring up real life examples in the name of vehicle game balance. It only shows your desperation for leverage. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 9032	Posted - 2013.12.17 18:54:00 - [54] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Ever stop to think that the problem is people are expecting light weapon AV to be super effective against a Heavy Attack Vehicle? Also, have you seen the scrubs that call themselves dedicated AV? They wouldn't survive a day back when we had real HAV and they would probably **** down their legs at the sight of a Segaris or Surya. Ever stop to think that I force prototype AV by calling in militia tank that I can afford 4 of before going ISK negative? Ever stop to think that standard tanks with SP are even stronger than that? Stop to think that if a skilled player is in that tank, they basically only die to luck or incredibly coordinated tactics, while they get to play solo? Ever stop to think that giving someone a solo machine that lets them kill infantry with impunity while only being reliably countered by other vehicles might be ::gasp:: unbalanced? This game is such a joke right now, and terrible players defending terrible balance definitely will not make things better. Vids / O7
Asya Belentine Death Firm. Canis Eliminatus Operatives 74	Posted - 2013.12.17 19:11:00 - [55] - Quote Anarchide wrote: Quote: *Mathemagical!* fixed ~Somewhere out there is a tree, tirelessly producing oxygen so you can breathe. I think you owe it an apology~
CLONE117 planetary retaliation organisation 519	Posted - 2013.12.17 19:48:00 - [56] - Quote sooo.....the main complaints about tanks comes down to just the mlt tanks only?. well do u think this would make our current std tanks easier to kill as well? i say tank vs tank combat feels a bit more balanced out. av feels like its almost been thrown into more of a tank support role right now. 2fg +tank = decent anti enemy tank device. now when av focuses fire on individual vehicles they can take them down pretty fast. in 1.6 the only problem i actually had with av were av nades. and that was it. when it came to my cheaply fitted soma. i can take down unfitted somas pretty easily. since all i stuck on my soma was a single 120m enhance armor plate and mlt damage mod. i have still have alittle trouble taking down maddies and gunlogis though pretty much anything that obviously has hardeners. or ones with hard hitting weapons. id say reducing the nerf of swarms and possibly the fg wouldnt ruin tankabillity of the current tanks but it would make them alot easier to kill..
Anarchide Greedy Bastards 1660	Posted - 2013.12.17 20:06:00 - [57] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Ever stop to think that the problem is people are expecting light weapon AV to be super effective against a Heavy Attack Vehicle? Also, have you seen the scrubs that call themselves dedicated AV? They wouldn't survive a day back when we had real HAV and they would probably ** down their legs at the sight of a Segaris or Surya. The SOLE purpose of the Swarm Launcher is to destroy vehicules. It fires up to six FRIGGIN'** anti-vehicule rockets. So ,yeah, I expect to do some damage on vehicules using that weapon. Greedy Bastards' Hate Lord


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