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DeadlyAztec11
2804
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Posted - 2013.12.16 22:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
The issue I have with the Caldari is that somehow they are big capitalists but all their products are made extremely practical and they do not attempt any sort of marketing to appeal to the masses, there is no competition. The Government is a collective oligarchy that somehow gets things done really easily.
It just sounds so implausible, it is like a society that depends on the fact that everybody just agree with each other for the better of everybody. Which begs the question, what do the CEO's do with all the money they get? I'm under the impression that they either agree to pay very high taxes or they voluntarily pump it back in the state. That's the other thing, they somehow have very low corruption despite having very lax rules about business.
I know they were going with the whole "Space Sparta" deal but even Sparta had a ton of slaves to fuel their economic needs. There biggest similarity is that both Caldari and Sparta were dependant on constant warfare to survive.
The Amarr are alright I guess, but I just personally don't like slavery, but as I said that is my personal issue.
But they did enslave anyone that opposed them, they didn't treat them better because they were more advanced they treated them better if they didn't resist.
Also the way they go about releasing slaves is that it usually takes countless generations of people and the finding of a new race or races to take their place. Although not as evident now, the Amarr economic system used to rely on constant expansion and capture of slaves to fuel their massive Empire. So it was more than a religious desire it was a necessity to expand, conquer and enslave. Not really different from most large Empires in human history; Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire, Russian Empire, Safavid Empire, Mughal Empire and even the Aztec (te-he) Empire; just to name a few.
My alts: GeneralJohnRipper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Long Evity, CCP Rarara
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DeadlyAztec11
2806
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Posted - 2013.12.16 22:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Why are you here? Go to the Intergalactic Summit.
Nobody but other RP'ers care, everyone else is just going to use the race that has the best equipment. (Minmatar, at the moment, that's why we win all the FW matches.) They are convinced that the Amarr and Caldari have a harder time winning in FW because of the way CCP markets the factions.
To be honest it should be backward, more hardcore players should be more prone to pick Caldari and Amarr.
So this all circles back to the fact that most people want to be Gallante and Minmatar while Caldari are third popular and Amarr are the least popular.
My alts: GeneralJohnRipper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Long Evity, CCP Rarara
And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
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DeadlyAztec11
2806
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Posted - 2013.12.16 22:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:The issue I have with the Caldari is that somehow they are big capitalists but all their products are made extremely practical and they do not attempt any sort of marketing to appeal to the masses, there is no competition. The Government is a collective oligarchy that somehow gets things done really easily.
It just sounds so implausible, it is like a society that depends on the fact that everybody just agree with each other for the better of everybody. Which begs the question, what do the CEO's do with all the money they get? I'm under the impression that they either agree to pay very high taxes or they voluntarily pump it back in the state. That's the other thing, they somehow have very low corruption despite having very lax rules about business.
I know they were going with the whole "Space Sparta" deal but even Sparta had a ton of slaves to fuel their economic needs. There biggest similarity is that both Caldari and Sparta were dependant on constant warfare to survive.
The Amarr are alright I guess, but I just personally don't like slavery, but as I said that is my personal issue.
But they did enslave anyone that opposed them, they didn't treat them better because they were more advanced they treated them better if they didn't resist.
Also the way they go about releasing slaves is that it usually takes countless generations of people and the finding of a new race or races to take their place. Although not as evident now, the Amarr economic system used to rely on constant expansion and capture of slaves to fuel their massive Empire. So it was more than a religious desire it was a necessity to expand, conquer and enslave. Not really different from most large Empires in human history; Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire, Russian Empire, Safavid Empire, Mughal Empire and even the Aztec (te-he) Empire; just to name a few.
I would like to reiterate that this is all my personal opinion. There is insane competition between the megacorporations as they will fight over patents legally, and behind the scenes... but what irks me about your response is that you seem to think democracy is working in new eden (and less importantly IRL...which it is not doing so great...) As for the Amarr it is true that they have expanded and their processes of emancipation are slow....however groups like the Ni Kunni spent less than 1 generation enslaved. I didn't even use the word democracy or democratic in the entire response. Democracy in the real world is far from perfect but just about all forms of government that proceeded it were worse for the general populations that were under it. The only reason representative democracy works is because of checks & balances. That way if one part of the government does something stupid at least the other parts of the government can stop them, usually.
You want to know why I chose the Gallante? They have the biggest variety, they do a little of everything. They have multiple religions, corporations, cultures and beliefs. By going Gallante I can choose any of the themes of the other races. And that is pretty cool. So why limit yourself when you can choose a race that allows you to expand your horizon in any direction you wish. I don't want one piece of paper I want the entire notebook.
My alts: GeneralJohnRipper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Long Evity, CCP Rarara
And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
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DeadlyAztec11
2807
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Posted - 2013.12.17 00:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote: The Caldari is perfect. The Amarr needs to show that they actually enslaved the minmatar. The Minmatar just need a few minor word changes. And the Gallente needs to be more noon friendly I honestly still don't know what POWs means.
I want to avoid the word slavery as people will instantly draw conclusions that are not accurate. Especially considering that in Amarr slaverly, the slaves are given proper nutrition, proper education, proper healthcare, infrastructure on their homeworlds, rights to retain aspects of their culture, and are usually freed within a generation. Those who treat their slaves poorly are sentenced to slavery itself. It's hardly what people see it as. And I do refer to it as slavery in the Minmatar description. But yes, the negatives of Amarr is that there are those slave owners who treat their slaves brutally and don't get caught, but that is not representative of Amarr in general. There is an Imperial Decree against such brutality. Those slave owners are to be thought of as criminals. Still a negative of Amarr, but again not representative of Amarr belief. Ever heard of Janissaries?
Do a little research on them. They had immense amount of freedom and even power back in middle east. Yet despite that they were still slaves.
My real issue with the Amarr is not so much slavery, it is why they enslave and how they feel about everybody else. I just don't like the way they act and how they believe they are so superior.
For example I like Sansha's Nation, had they been a playable faction I would have chosen them without a second thought. I also like the Khanid, they enslave anybody they can, not for religious reasons or because they feel superior, no they do it because they want to make money. The Romans for example did not enslave people for the reason that they wanted to change or convert others, it is true that they enslaved people because they were "barbarians", they did it for the purpose of labor, a necessary evil of sorts. I suppose that the fact that the Amarr don't admit that is a turn off.
My alts: GeneralJohnRipper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Long Evity, CCP Rarara
And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
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DeadlyAztec11
2808
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Posted - 2013.12.17 00:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
Fire of Prometheus wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:LOL at people who say "I didn't choose Amarr because I don't like slavery, but that's a personal issue." As if people who choose Amarr support slavery Though I understand if you personally have a hard time distinguishing the difference between Amarr "slavery" and 16th/17th century slavery on Earth. Hint, one of them is only called "slavery" by their enemies to attack them, when in actuality the "slaves" are given proper education, proper health care, infrastructure on their homeworlds, rights to retain their culture, respect, and are usually freed within one generation. Exactly, I chose amarr cause I thought they looked like the Coolest race....I didn't even read the description about them If I knew the Gallante were going to be 4 eyed ugly SOB's I would have probably went Caldari lol
My alts: GeneralJohnRipper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Long Evity, CCP Rarara
And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
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DeadlyAztec11
2814
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Posted - 2013.12.17 02:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:The Amarr's slavery is just as terrible as it sounds. They used to enslave absolutely everyone they came across that didn't immediately accept their religion, often times not even asking them if they would before beginning the process of enslavement. Not only that, they aren't required to free their slaves. They're encouraged to release their slaves when they feel that their slaves have properly embraced the faith, but they get to decide that, plus the slaves are forcefully converted, too. Most slaves are never emancipated unless they act like loyal dogs to the Amarr faith. Other than the Amarr's views on slavery and their dogmatic approach to religion, they're not so bad, though.
Its not nearly as terrible as it sounds. Slaves are cared for and treated better than most of those in Gallentean slums could ever hope for, they are educated in the ways of the Amarr, which is not such a bad thing, considering most lessons would be on Amarrian culture and history, it also makes sense because no racial groups educations systems are impartial. Holder's aren't required to free slaves though they consider it their sacred duty to strive to have those under their care accept the Amarrian faith. Again not so bad, eventually exposure to one cultural group or another rubs off one people (we are now exception IRL) most Minmatar slaves spend their lives being educated this way, much like many free Minmatar come to the opposite conclusion. Such is just how you were raised. There are no lies in this education, in the same manner Amarr are educated so too are the slaves. Do you wish to mention that there are example of Minmatar returning to the Republic, holding their ceremonies because they continue to embrace the faith being abused and killed for their choices?
We'll the slaves might be treated "well" but they are treated well in the same respect as toy poodles and ponies are treated well. There owners can punish them as they see fit, within Amarrian law, and can even change their names if they want. They separate families and limit the exposure of people to certain groups in an attempt of de facto breeding. They are property. You make it sound like they are Janissaries, but at least Janissaries could hold high positions in politics and were paid, they were also allowed to marry freely into the families of high and low classes. No they are not like indentured servants, indentured servants were under contracts or they had fallen into debt with the understanding of what could happen.
My alts: GeneralJohnRipper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Long Evity, CCP Rarara
And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
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DeadlyAztec11
2815
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Posted - 2013.12.17 03:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:The Amarr's slavery is just as terrible as it sounds. They used to enslave absolutely everyone they came across that didn't immediately accept their religion, often times not even asking them if they would before beginning the process of enslavement. Not only that, they aren't required to free their slaves. They're encouraged to release their slaves when they feel that their slaves have properly embraced the faith, but they get to decide that, plus the slaves are forcefully converted, too. Most slaves are never emancipated unless they act like loyal dogs to the Amarr faith. Other than the Amarr's views on slavery and their dogmatic approach to religion, they're not so bad, though.
Its not nearly as terrible as it sounds. Slaves are cared for and treated better than most of those in Gallentean slums could ever hope for, they are educated in the ways of the Amarr, which is not such a bad thing, considering most lessons would be on Amarrian culture and history, it also makes sense because no racial groups educations systems are impartial. Holder's aren't required to free slaves though they consider it their sacred duty to strive to have those under their care accept the Amarrian faith. Again not so bad, eventually exposure to one cultural group or another rubs off one people (we are now exception IRL) most Minmatar slaves spend their lives being educated this way, much like many free Minmatar come to the opposite conclusion. Such is just how you were raised. There are no lies in this education, in the same manner Amarr are educated so too are the slaves. Do you wish to mention that there are example of Minmatar returning to the Republic, holding their ceremonies because they continue to embrace the faith being abused and killed for their choices? We'll the slaves might be treated "well" but they are treated well in the same respect as toy poodles and ponies are treated well. There owners can punish them as they see fit, within Amarrian law, and can even change their names if they want. They separate families and limit the exposure of people to certain groups in an attempt of de facto breeding. They are property. You make it sound like they are Janissaries, but at least Janissaries could hold high positions in politics and were paid, they were also allowed to marry freely into the families of high and low classes. No they are not like indentured servants, indentured servants were under contracts or they had fallen into debt with the understanding of what could happen. I fail to see your point. I do not respect you (IC not at all OCC sure) but I am not mistreating you...... Example of Holders exploiting their slaves and subjects are records of public history with those corrupt Holders being subject to slavery themselves or the rulings of the Speakers of Truth.....Articio Kor Azor is a prime example of this, who mended his ways post ruling, and has since gone on to work closely with the development of the Anmatar. As for the breeding of Kamieras...well I cannot say that is not unkind, but love is irrelevant in the service of God, something must be done, and siring such strong and noble warriors is a higher honour than many realise. However in Amarrian society no low born citizens marry into the upper echelon, such is the bane of being nobility and holding together the greatest empire in existence. Marriage between Minmatar and Amarr is not common, but not uncommon though. The low born like myself are very luck. I will get to marry who I choose one day.... I know I keep referencing Janissaries and they sound like they are from EVE but they are actually a slave warrior class of the long gone Ottoman Empire, similar to Kaimeras.
Here if you want to know more.
My alts: GeneralJohnRipper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Long Evity, CCP Rarara
And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
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DeadlyAztec11
2816
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Posted - 2013.12.17 20:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:gbghg wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:gbghg wrote:I like the descriptions but the amarr one seems like its trying to twist the slavery angle into soething else, idk might have just been the way you said it. See above. People hear the word "slavery" and immediately associate it with all these predetermined thoughts. Amarr "slavery" isn't remotely similar to what so many people here instantly believe it is. i know, and you make a good point, but like aztec said it's about the reasons for the reclamation, it just feels like the words your using are trying to sugarcoat things a bit much. i have no problem with you trying to cast the amarr in a better light, hell i think its a good thing, giving people a better overview the factions is a good thing. i just feel that the whole "parental" angle you were aiming for is the wrong one, maybe something more along the lines of how they believe it is their religious duty to unite new eden and how they accomplish this with means ranging from forced reeducation of planetary populations to missionaries and the like. you could also focus on the spiritual side of their faith, idk, that parental angle made me a bit uncomfortable and felt off to me. Forced reeducation? The worlds the Amarr have reclaimed never had more than a primitive education compared to how technologically advanced the Amarr were after thousands of years. There was no reeducating, just educating. Sure, there was an Amarr bias on it, but that's no different than people in America being educated with an American bias or people in the UK being educated with a UK bias, for example. Maybe you don't like the whole "parental" thing, but I find it quite apt. Most "slave" owners genuinely care about their "slaves" and one of the highest honors to have in Amarr society is for your "slaves" to become freed and become a model citizen of the Amarr Empire. Of course, there are a good chunk of people who are brutal in the matter but those people are criminals and should be viewed no differently than the brutal criminals of any other society.
Alright, you are wrong here the Amarr did not choose to reclaim only primitive societies. They chose primitive societies because primitive societies could not fight back. They met the Gallante, what was the first option they looked at? Invasion. Why didn't they? Because they realized the Gallante weren't going to be an easy win. They had never fought another race that proved to be any sort of equal.
My alts: GeneralJohnRipper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Long Evity, CCP Rarara
And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
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DeadlyAztec11
2816
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Posted - 2013.12.17 20:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:Aero Yassavi when the hell did I deny that we weren't using the minmatar? Get your head out of your ass please.
Sorry, I misinterpreted your response. Nonetheless, my points still stand that the Gallente are only using the Minmatar as puppets of war, which we both agree on. Well the Amarr are also playing the Caldari against the Gallante.
Neither the Gallante nor Amarr wat to be caught in a handicap match, neither want a 2v1.
The Minmatar can't really powerplay and the Caldari don't have enough influence to seriously manipulate a larger opponent.
My alts: GeneralJohnRipper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Long Evity, CCP Rarara
And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
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