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Alena Ventrallis
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
300
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Posted - 2013.12.15 22:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
because if they become too powerful, then hardeners or not, vehicles would still be useless. And we'd have completely revamped vehicles for nothing.
I suggest this.
Give swarms a large buff in damage, able to OHK or perhaps two-hit-kill a fitted LAV.
Now give medium vehicles a resistance to them, since its a light weapon against a medium vehicle
Give HAVs a large resistance to them. since it's a light weapon vs a heavy vehicle. |
Alena Ventrallis
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
305
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 01:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Seymor Krelborn wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Swarms are a really nice way to get a vehicle to turn on their hardener, which means that when that hardener is up, the vehicle is going to to have diminished defenses. See AV guys are confused, and it's not their fault because they've been conditioned to believe otherwise. Not every AV weapon is supposed to be able to kill HAVs, especially LIGHT AV weapons. The forge is still very much capable of killing HAVs and I've seen it used to great effectiveness post 1.7. Swarms on the other hand are good at a could of things.
1. Duping the tanker to turn a hardener on. HAV pilots know they cant take a hit with that hardener off, but they'll avoid using it til they have to because cooldowns are long and they dont want to get caught with their pants down. Doing damage to an HAV is going to spook them into flipping that hardener on early, meaning they're going to be weak later.
2. Negating Armor Reps. This is particularly important, as while swarms are generally not enough DPS to break the tank's effective tanking rate, it does nowever negate much of that repping. This means that additional burst damage such as a forge will be able to cut through the tank's reps because the incoming swarm damage is effectively reducing the rep rate.
3. Pushing HAVs out. This somewhat goes hand in hand with number 1, but if a HAV is taking up a static position, swarms will be able to force the hardener on. Because tankers know that any swarmer worth his salt is going to have a nanohive and thus nearly limitless ammo, that tanker also knows that he will not be able to take sustained fire for long and will eventually be forced to vacate the area once his hardener are up.
All of these roles are useful and important but as you can see, flat out killing HAVs is NOT one of them. You have been conditioned to believe that you are entitled to be able to solo HAVs with a light AV weapon because that's how its been for a very long time. However, because you are using lighter weapons against a heavier target, as a Swarmer you are a SUPPORT AV role, not a primary, that job belongs to the HEAVY AV weapon, aka The Forge Gun. so what your saying is swarms are meant to be useless... its supposed to be the only weapon in the game to waste sp on that gets, no kills and no wp... did ccp tell you this or are you pulling this out of your butt? why would a weapon that cant do anything but lock on vehicles not be meant to kill them? because their role is just to intimidate? bad reasoning.... edit: if this is their intended role, then swarms should be an equipment slot item... not a light weapon
You realize there are more vehicles than just tanks right? And unless I am mistaken, LAVs are slower now, so your swarms can catch them.
A HEAVY vehicle needs a HEAVY weapon to destroy. Boost swarm damage, and give heavy and medium vehicles an innate resistance to them. If swarms are supposed to kill heavies, then make it a heavy weapon and be done with it.
Otherwise, we could absolutely revamp swarms into a single use AV weapon similar to the AT-4 or LAW. make it deal a good amount of damage to heavy vehicles, and make it take an equipment slot. can only be reloaded at supply depots.
Actually, I like that idea a lot. |
Alena Ventrallis
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
305
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 01:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Seymor Krelborn wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Seymor Krelborn wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Swarms are a really nice way to get a vehicle to turn on their hardener, which means that when that hardener is up, the vehicle is going to to have diminished defenses. See AV guys are confused, and it's not their fault because they've been conditioned to believe otherwise. Not every AV weapon is supposed to be able to kill HAVs, especially LIGHT AV weapons. The forge is still very much capable of killing HAVs and I've seen it used to great effectiveness post 1.7. Swarms on the other hand are good at a could of things.
1. Duping the tanker to turn a hardener on. HAV pilots know they cant take a hit with that hardener off, but they'll avoid using it til they have to because cooldowns are long and they dont want to get caught with their pants down. Doing damage to an HAV is going to spook them into flipping that hardener on early, meaning they're going to be weak later.
2. Negating Armor Reps. This is particularly important, as while swarms are generally not enough DPS to break the tank's effective tanking rate, it does nowever negate much of that repping. This means that additional burst damage such as a forge will be able to cut through the tank's reps because the incoming swarm damage is effectively reducing the rep rate.
3. Pushing HAVs out. This somewhat goes hand in hand with number 1, but if a HAV is taking up a static position, swarms will be able to force the hardener on. Because tankers know that any swarmer worth his salt is going to have a nanohive and thus nearly limitless ammo, that tanker also knows that he will not be able to take sustained fire for long and will eventually be forced to vacate the area once his hardener are up.
All of these roles are useful and important but as you can see, flat out killing HAVs is NOT one of them. You have been conditioned to believe that you are entitled to be able to solo HAVs with a light AV weapon because that's how its been for a very long time. However, because you are using lighter weapons against a heavier target, as a Swarmer you are a SUPPORT AV role, not a primary, that job belongs to the HEAVY AV weapon, aka The Forge Gun. so what your saying is swarms are meant to be useless... its supposed to be the only weapon in the game to waste sp on that gets, no kills and no wp... did ccp tell you this or are you pulling this out of your butt? why would a weapon that cant do anything but lock on vehicles not be meant to kill them? because their role is just to intimidate? bad reasoning.... edit: if this is their intended role, then swarms should be an equipment slot item... not a light weapon You realize there are more vehicles than just tanks right? And unless I am mistaken, LAVs are slower now, so your swarms can catch them. A HEAVY vehicle needs a HEAVY weapon to destroy. Boost swarm damage, and give heavy and medium vehicles an innate resistance to them. If swarms are supposed to kill heavies, then make it a heavy weapon and be done with it. Otherwise, we could absolutely revamp swarms into a single use AV weapon similar to the AT-4 or LAW. make it deal a good amount of damage to heavy vehicles, and make it take an equipment slot. can only be reloaded at supply depots. Actually, I like that idea a lot. you are mistaken... lav's handle better overall... any speed nerf is nominal since they have improved agility. infantry are the appropriate counter to AV mercs. right now tanks kill everything including light vehicles with ease... so why skill into swarms? riddle me this.... what can a swarm launcher do that other weapons cant do better right now? also by your heavy weapon logic... shotguns should be a heavy weapon then... right?
Track LAVs. Able to chase dropships.
Suppose we increase swarm speed, to make them better at catching nimble targets like LAVs?
Shotguns could be a heavy weapon if they gained more range, more ammo, and a faster fire rate. They are light weapons because they have severe penalties for their damage, namely a tiny optimal range. |
Alena Ventrallis
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
306
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 01:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
Seymor Krelborn wrote:
the problem with all your suggestions and rebuttals, none of it is in the game....
again, and I will reiterate my question...
as the game is now, what are swarms good for that another weapon doesn't already do better?
if ccp had taken the time to make swarms useful still this post wouldn't exist, until this patch they were effective against tanks, now they have no defined role... period.
and tanks have no real counter other than another tank or a dedicated anti tank squad, and even this isn't working right because there are to many tanks on the damn field at once.
Which is why we are having this discussion. We are debating what should and should not be added to the game. As it is, something needs to be done, the debate is over what.
increase swarm speed to make hitting fast nimble targets like LAVs and dropships easier. Limit vehicles deployed by types rather than a general cap.
KING CHECKMATE has a thread about doing the latter, it's a really good idea. Read up on it. |
Alena Ventrallis
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
308
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 03:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Toby Flenderson wrote:Pvt Numnutz wrote:Well they are an anti vehicle weapon. I'm sure you have already made up your mind on the term anti vehicle, I view it as destroying or deterring vehicles. Swarms deal explosive damage so they are more suited against armor vehicles.
Further more swarms are a light weapon, so I assume they are most effective against light vehicles, however when coupled with a few other light weapons, or a heavy weapon or another vehicle they can help on harder targets like tanks. Since when did the whole "light weapon means a weak weapon" thing start? Is this why people counter AR/CR/RR/SC and other light weapons with the superior heavy weapons? No one in their right mind would think that light weapons are weak in any other aspect but vs. a vehicle unless we're talking about the SL. SL users sacrifice a weapon to defend themselves to make suicide runs trying to destroy tanks. I call it a suicide run no matter how tactical you are about it because they're sitting ducks to everything. To say that a light weapon should be ineffective just because it has "light" in the description is ridiculous when you consider that the only alternative is that for every tank you need 2 proto forge gunners waddling around. If everyone wants to jump on this "SL is a light weapon therefore it can't kill anything because it's a light weaponGǪ light weapon" bandwagon that seems to have just taken off the last few days then I propose the FG gets a massive damage buff. Like crazy. I'm talking about buffing it from the 1.4 baseline. If it's to truly be the "main AV weapon", make it able to destroy a specced out tank in one clip at maximum optimization. By this i mean proto/proficiency 5/damage mods. It's a "heavy weapon" after all and should obliterate everything, especially "heavy" vehicles like tanks. I won't QQ about a respec if everyone's all on board with this "light/heavy" bullshit, I'll start grinding today for the FG fit. At this point I'll have just about every method of AV at my disposal and if someone tells me I shouldn't be able to kill a tank then I can confidently tell them they don't know what they're talking about. Until that time I say drop the whole "light weapons can't hurt heavy things because like the names are different" argument because it really doesn't match up to the fact that the SL holds the title for the AV weapon of Dust 514 in the sense that it's completely, irrefutably designed for destroying vehicles. **** the "well not all vehicles because, well you know, lightGǪ" spam. It simply doesn't mean anything when you look at what the weapon is.
I'm down for that. So that forge guns would not be OP, make them barely able to turn, and cut HAV speeds to compensate. This makes hitting LAVs and dropships much harder for the forge gun, and ensures that it wont wreck everything that moves. |
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