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Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. Renegade Alliance 4140	Posted - 2013.12.15 21:17:00 - [1] - Quote I'm not listing numbers because CCP already has them and if the community really needs them I suggest looking them up personally. Combat Rifle versus Burst Assault Rifle: Combat Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower resource costs and lower price. Rail Rifle versus Breach Assault Rifle: Rail Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, (much) longer range and lower price. Resource costs are higher though. Scrambler Rifle versus Tactical Assault Rifle: Scrambler Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower price and the ability to charge for three times the damage. Resource costs are much higher however. So, if all the races have their primary variant and the other races have designs that emulate that... Why is it that the Assault Rifle, being the primary weapon of the Gallente, has such similar DPS values to the emulators that it's literally single digit differences? The range is the shortest and yet even the Rail Rifle (once charged) overshadows it in the damage factor. If they're meant to emulate the Assault Rifle than why is it that it's being outclassed? Honestly, given that they have lower ranges, -all- the Assault Rifles should have higher damage dealing capability than the other rifles because that's what they were designed for. Close range, high damage capability. That's not what we're seeing here and when the Kaalakiota Assault Rail Rifle has replaced the Duvolle Assault Rifle as my primary armory, despite having such intensive skill investment into the Duvolle, there's something strange going on. forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m= (Frames)1544109 (Advertisement)1556863 (Packs)1570030 (Lag Hunt) 1570201
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 4093	Posted - 2013.12.15 21:19:00 - [2] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I'm not listing numbers because CCP already has them and if the community really needs them I suggest looking them up personally. Combat Rifle versus Burst Assault Rifle: Combat Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower resource costs and lower price. Rail Rifle versus Breach Assault Rifle: Rail Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, (much) longer range and lower price. Resource costs are higher though. Scrambler Rifle versus Tactical Assault Rifle: Scrambler Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower price and the ability to charge for three times the damage. Resource costs are much higher however. So, if all the races have their primary variant and the other races have designs that emulate that... Why is it that the Assault Rifle, being the primary weapon of the Gallente, has such similar DPS values to the emulators that it's literally single digit differences? The range is the shortest and yet even the Rail Rifle (once charged) overshadows it in the damage factor. If they're meant to emulate the Assault Rifle than why is it that it's being outclassed? Honestly, given that they have lower ranges, -all- the Assault Rifles should have higher damage dealing capability than the other rifles because that's what they were designed for. Close range, high damage capability. That's not what we're seeing here and when the Kaalakiota Assault Rail Rifle has replaced the Duvolle Assault Rifle as my primary armory, despite having such intensive skill investment into the Duvolle, there's something strange going on. Amen to that. If it's going to be a Gallente weapon, make it Gallente. Anyone who gets within range should get wrecked before they even know what's going on. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Ulysses Knapse duna corp 751	Posted - 2013.12.15 21:38:00 - [3] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Scrambler Rifle versus Tactical Assault Rifle: Scrambler Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower price and the ability to charge for three times the damage. Resource costs are much higher however. It also overheats, and that's always fun... Humanity is the personification of change.
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 4093	Posted - 2013.12.15 21:52:00 - [4] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Scrambler Rifle versus Tactical Assault Rifle: Scrambler Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower price and the ability to charge for three times the damage. Resource costs are much higher however. It also overheats, and that's always fun... It's really easy to avoid the overheat though, especially when you can accomplish most kills in 3-4 shots if you track your target well. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
BL4CKST4R warravens League of Infamy 1362	Posted - 2013.12.15 21:56:00 - [5] - Quote Rail rifle should be absolutely horrible at short range, just like the Plasma rifle should be absolutely horrible at long range. The Combat rifle should be good at short range and extend slightly into long range, while the Scrambler rifle should be good at long range and extend slightly into short range.
RKKR The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 542	Posted - 2013.12.15 22:01:00 - [6] - Quote Balancing in DUST514 makes no sense, therefore rifle balance doesn't make sense either.
Ensar Cael Dead Man's Game 47	Posted - 2013.12.15 22:03:00 - [7] - Quote The problem with all these weapons is the range. Its too ******* long and absolutely pointless for the most part. Getting killed from over 100 meters out by an AR, SCR, etc invalidates a large part of the game due tot he fact of the large damage that can still be done. In short to medium range these weapons should be stupidly devastating, but beyond 50-60 metres they should be weak. That makes for a more intense set of fights in a more tactical sense. Right now it's blast away and drop people super quick, super easy. TL;DR Too much damage at range on assault weapons. Kill damage rate massively after 50-60 meters. Flame away...
Xak Arji DIOS EX. 32	Posted - 2013.12.15 22:12:00 - [8] - Quote I think the ranges are fine, it's the damn time to kill. What's the point in having over 800 HP when it only last's 3 or 4 seconds under fire. Not to mention the maps have a severe lack of cover. each map is just a series of no - man's - land's put in different order. Even the "urban" maps have next to zero cover. You'd think that either 1: these space age engineers could make shields worth a damn, or 2: put a pile of bricks or something behind the hand rails. That would let the AR be more at home in the trenches vs storming across an open field against a dude with a rail rifle.
J'Hiera Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 47	Posted - 2013.12.15 22:42:00 - [9] - Quote I often switch from Rail to Breach since the scope is not optional. Im clumsy enough to fall down from ledges when strafing and shooting at someone from high ground. Breach is much more precise as it has almost no kick, but it is still lacking in damage. With its range, it could easily have Kaalakiota damage (60, isnt it?). Gallente weaponry makes absolutely no sense now. At all. I rarely find myself using one anymore, simply because the new ones do they task so much better.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 507	Posted - 2013.12.15 22:52:00 - [10] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I'm not listing numbers because CCP already has them and if the community really needs them I suggest looking them up personally. Combat Rifle versus Burst Assault Rifle: Combat Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower resource costs and lower price. Rail Rifle versus Breach Assault Rifle: Rail Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, (much) longer range and lower price. Resource costs are higher though. Scrambler Rifle versus Tactical Assault Rifle: Scrambler Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower price and the ability to charge for three times the damage. Resource costs are much higher however. So, if all the races have their primary variant and the other races have designs that emulate that... Why is it that the Assault Rifle, being the primary weapon of the Gallente, has such similar DPS values to the emulators that it's literally single digit differences? The range is the shortest and yet even the Rail Rifle (once charged) overshadows it in the damage factor. If they're meant to emulate the Assault Rifle than why is it that it's being outclassed? Honestly, given that they have lower ranges, -all- the Assault Rifles should have higher damage dealing capability than the other rifles because that's what they were designed for. Close range, high damage capability. That's not what we're seeing here and when the Kaalakiota Assault Rail Rifle has replaced the Duvolle Assault Rifle as my primary armory, despite having such intensive skill investment into the Duvolle, there's something strange going on. Just remember the inverse is true as well. All racial assault variants are mildly inferior in some way to the Gallente AR...which is by design. Gallente baseline is Assault, Caldari - Breach, Minmatar - burst, Amarr - tactical. Non baseline types of weapons from a given race are degraded forms of some other races baseline weapons. (Fully understand that las sentence is a mouthful - sorry) My point is the other weapons aren't meant to emulate the Assault Rifle...just the racial Assault Variants are.

Cosgar ParagonX 8735	Posted - 2013.12.15 23:50:00 - [11] - Quote Rethinking weapon range and damage profiles. It'd be a good way to round out the different rifle variants within racial traits without anything stepping on the toes of another and without making things redundant. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Stephen Seneca State Patriots Templis Dragonaors 17	Posted - 2013.12.16 00:03:00 - [12] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen is correct. Gallente AR is the best at short range, there is no denying that. Using Gallente tech means you will always have a tendency for CQC and shorter ranges and highest dps. The -variants- are just that. Variations from the base Gal AR. In no way should a variant rifle outperform the base rifle of the race it is emulating. I feel like there is a good balance between rifles right now. TTK is too short. Remove AA and the 10% damage buff. For the State! Keep your stick on the ice and get the pucks in deep, eh.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. Renegade Alliance 4142	Posted - 2013.12.16 00:18:00 - [13] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I'm not listing numbers because CCP already has them and if the community really needs them I suggest looking them up personally. Combat Rifle versus Burst Assault Rifle: Combat Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower resource costs and lower price. Rail Rifle versus Breach Assault Rifle: Rail Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, (much) longer range and lower price. Resource costs are higher though. Scrambler Rifle versus Tactical Assault Rifle: Scrambler Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower price and the ability to charge for three times the damage. Resource costs are much higher however. So, if all the races have their primary variant and the other races have designs that emulate that... Why is it that the Assault Rifle, being the primary weapon of the Gallente, has such similar DPS values to the emulators that it's literally single digit differences? The range is the shortest and yet even the Rail Rifle (once charged) overshadows it in the damage factor. If they're meant to emulate the Assault Rifle than why is it that it's being outclassed? Honestly, given that they have lower ranges, -all- the Assault Rifles should have higher damage dealing capability than the other rifles because that's what they were designed for. Close range, high damage capability. That's not what we're seeing here and when the Kaalakiota Assault Rail Rifle has replaced the Duvolle Assault Rifle as my primary armory, despite having such intensive skill investment into the Duvolle, there's something strange going on. Just remember the inverse is true as well. All racial assault variants are mildly inferior in some way to the Gallente AR...which is by design. Gallente baseline is Assault, Caldari - Breach, Minmatar - burst, Amarr - tactical. Non baseline types of weapons from a given race are degraded forms of some other races baseline weapons. (Fully understand that las sentence is a mouthful - sorry) My point is the other weapons aren't meant to emulate the Assault Rifle...just the racial Assault Variants are. Right, that's the entire point - the assault variants emulate the Assault Rifle but far too well and are arguably better. I don't see how the assault variants are in any way inferior to the Gallente AR, let alone 'mildly'. forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m= (Frames)1544109 (Advertisement)1556863 (Packs)1570030 (Lag Hunt) 1570201
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. Renegade Alliance 4142	Posted - 2013.12.16 00:21:00 - [14] - Quote Stephen Seneca wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen is correct. Gallente AR is the best at short range, there is no denying that. Using Gallente tech means you will always have a tendency for CQC and shorter ranges and highest dps. The -variants- are just that. Variations from the base Gal AR. In no way should a variant rifle outperform the base rifle of the race it is emulating. I feel like there is a good balance between rifles right now. TTK is too short. Remove AA and the 10% damage buff. "In no way should a variant rifle outperform the base rifle of the race it is emulating." Than why have the DPS values so similar with longer ranges? Assault Scrambler Rifle doesn't even overheat, as much as someone would try to convince you - if you don't believe me grab one and just hold down the trigger; takes -magazines- to overheat it. Assault Rail Rifle performs as well if not better than the Assault Rifle once it's fully charged Assault Combat Rifle is arguably better overall because of it's low resource costs; similar damage output and longer range. forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m= (Frames)1544109 (Advertisement)1556863 (Packs)1570030 (Lag Hunt) 1570201
Stephen Seneca State Patriots Templis Dragonaors 17	Posted - 2013.12.16 00:46:00 - [15] - Quote I believe there is a good balance between base rifles. In between the variants are going to be a little blurry but there are many more factors that come down to milliseconds and various fittings. Personally still feel like the base AR can reach out and touch someone.. but that could just be player skill with the weapon. The assault RR doesnt spit out rounds like an AR or CR but you might get 3 in a row on someone in CQC in the head. From experience Id say I get lit up by all types of rifles in different circumstances. (Plus I just got a new to me lcd tv with bad input lag). Also from experience I would say the base rifles do perform as they should. Kalaakiota RR lighting me up at long ranges.. same with A/SCRs.. Boundless CR? ************ in tight just like a Duvolle. For the State! Keep your stick on the ice and get the pucks in deep, eh.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1819	Posted - 2013.12.16 01:04:00 - [16] - Quote Things aren't that out of whack, honestly. The damage profiles make a huge difference here. Currently I am seeing quite a few more suits stacking armor due to the general low TTK and armor can get higher numbers. The RR has a whopping 20% increased efficacy against armor when compared to the AR. It only makes sense that the CR and RR would have an edge in an environment filled with lots of armor tankers. When the balance of the game shifts to favor shields or people realize everybody is running weapons that wreak armor you'll have a bunch of targets that you can rip apart with the mainly anti-shield blaster tech. Try to kill it all you want CCP, I still <3 my laser.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 1126	Posted - 2013.12.16 01:29:00 - [17] - Quote I think the balancing of these weapons is tricky due to individual player differences. For some players a low damage high RoF weapon (CR) will out perform a more average one (AR). I don't know that CCP could do this balancing without introducing the weapons to the player base then monitoring our performance with them. That being said I hope that they are looking at the number of kills each weapon is producing relative to the frequency the weapon is used by the Dust population. This kind of generalized analysis would allow CCP to look at overall performance of a weapon without regards to player skills (since the averages such a study would produce would include players of all skill levels). Once this is done CCP can begin to balance weapons, something they were clearly not able to do with their small in house testing team. Personally I think the rifles are close to balanced currently. Not perfectly balanced but close. Sure, something needs to be done to make each rifle better with its base variant but as a group the rifles complement rather than outperform each other. Fun > Realism
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 298	Posted - 2013.12.16 01:48:00 - [18] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I'm not listing numbers because CCP already has them and if the community really needs them I suggest looking them up personally. Combat Rifle versus Burst Assault Rifle: Combat Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower resource costs and lower price. Rail Rifle versus Breach Assault Rifle: Rail Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, (much) longer range and lower price. Resource costs are higher though. Scrambler Rifle versus Tactical Assault Rifle: Scrambler Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower price and the ability to charge for three times the damage. Resource costs are much higher however. So, if all the races have their primary variant and the other races have designs that emulate that... Why is it that the Assault Rifle, being the primary weapon of the Gallente, has such similar DPS values to the emulators that it's literally single digit differences? The range is the shortest and yet even the Rail Rifle (once charged) overshadows it in the damage factor. If they're meant to emulate the Assault Rifle than why is it that it's being outclassed? Honestly, given that they have lower ranges, -all- the Assault Rifles should have higher damage dealing capability than the other rifles because that's what they were designed for. Close range, high damage capability. That's not what we're seeing here and when the Kaalakiota Assault Rail Rifle has replaced the Duvolle Assault Rifle as my primary armory, despite having such intensive skill investment into the Duvolle, there's something strange going on. Just remember the inverse is true as well. All racial assault variants are mildly inferior in some way to the Gallente AR...which is by design. Gallente baseline is Assault, Caldari - Breach, Minmatar - burst, Amarr - tactical. Non baseline types of weapons from a given race are degraded forms of some other races baseline weapons. (Fully understand that las sentence is a mouthful - sorry) My point is the other weapons aren't meant to emulate the Assault Rifle...just the racial Assault Variants are. Right, that's the entire point - the assault variants emulate the Assault Rifle but far too well and are arguably better. I don't see how the assault variants are in any way inferior to the Gallente AR, let alone 'mildly'. Well if they add overheat to the tac,spool time to the breach whatever to burst then yeah but you lose the side effects of your variants Ascr still over heats tac ar doesn't yes they all emulate eachother but the retain stengths and weaknesses of ther race "May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace" - Second Corinthians chapter one verse two.
Draco Cerberus BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 608	Posted - 2013.12.16 02:09:00 - [19] - Quote TBH the Duvolle AR seems rather underwhelming in comparison to a CR of any type and the RR as well simply due to it's shorter range and the general lack of CQC currently being employed by most squads now that the longer engagement ranges are available (other than on objectives). It seems like a general purpose weapon still but lacks the ability to really engage most groups that are already engaging you while using them. LogiGod earns his pips
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 510	Posted - 2013.12.16 02:51:00 - [20] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: TBH the Duvolle AR seems rather underwhelming in comparison to a CR of any type and the RR as well simply due to it's shorter range and the general lack of CQC currently being employed by most squads now that the longer engagement ranges are available (other than on objectives). It seems like a general purpose weapon still but lacks the ability to really engage most groups that are already engaging you while using them. True...however, that's a bit of the point. A lot of it also depends on the map...in the Gallente research lab the CQC fights are pretty serious and the AR clearly out performs my RR. The .25 sec spool time is deadly during engagements inside 25meters...I routinely switch to my SMG when things get tight.

Fenrir XIII Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 14	Posted - 2013.12.16 03:10:00 - [21] - Quote It should be totally revamped and labeled a Blaster Rifle or whatever. And like the other ones, the standard version would include a scope, assault variant without the scope.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. Renegade Alliance 4142	Posted - 2013.12.16 04:15:00 - [22] - Quote deepfried salad gilliam wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I'm not listing numbers because CCP already has them and if the community really needs them I suggest looking them up personally. Combat Rifle versus Burst Assault Rifle: Combat Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower resource costs and lower price. Rail Rifle versus Breach Assault Rifle: Rail Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, (much) longer range and lower price. Resource costs are higher though. Scrambler Rifle versus Tactical Assault Rifle: Scrambler Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower price and the ability to charge for three times the damage. Resource costs are much higher however. So, if all the races have their primary variant and the other races have designs that emulate that... Why is it that the Assault Rifle, being the primary weapon of the Gallente, has such similar DPS values to the emulators that it's literally single digit differences? The range is the shortest and yet even the Rail Rifle (once charged) overshadows it in the damage factor. If they're meant to emulate the Assault Rifle than why is it that it's being outclassed? Honestly, given that they have lower ranges, -all- the Assault Rifles should have higher damage dealing capability than the other rifles because that's what they were designed for. Close range, high damage capability. That's not what we're seeing here and when the Kaalakiota Assault Rail Rifle has replaced the Duvolle Assault Rifle as my primary armory, despite having such intensive skill investment into the Duvolle, there's something strange going on. Just remember the inverse is true as well. All racial assault variants are mildly inferior in some way to the Gallente AR...which is by design. Gallente baseline is Assault, Caldari - Breach, Minmatar - burst, Amarr - tactical. Non baseline types of weapons from a given race are degraded forms of some other races baseline weapons. (Fully understand that las sentence is a mouthful - sorry) My point is the other weapons aren't meant to emulate the Assault Rifle...just the racial Assault Variants are. Right, that's the entire point - the assault variants emulate the Assault Rifle but far too well and are arguably better. I don't see how the assault variants are in any way inferior to the Gallente AR, let alone 'mildly'. Well if they add overheat to the tac,spool time to the breach whatever to burst then yeah but you lose the side effects of your variants Ascr still over heats tac ar doesn't yes they all emulate eachother but the retain stengths and weaknesses of ther race ASCR doesn't overheat for almost two magazines, more if you're using Amarr Assault. If you meant the Scrambler rifle itself, it has that overheat because it has the ability to charge up a shot and deal three times the normal damage - even then it fires rounds that do more damage than the tactical rifle to begin with without the rate of fire stipulation but more importantly a fast trigger puller can hammer out 20-25 normal rounds before it overheats; that's more than the entire magazine on the Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle. The rewards far outweight the risks. forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m= (Frames)1544109 (Advertisement)1556863 (Packs)1570030 (Lag Hunt) 1570201
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 4096	Posted - 2013.12.16 12:50:00 - [23] - Quote Fenrir XIII wrote: It should be totally revamped and labeled a Blaster Rifle or whatever. And like the other ones, the standard version would include a scope, assault variant without the scope. But see, the whole point is that the standard version is what the Assault variants of all the others are supposed to be copycatting. The issue is that it's inferior to the copycats, which is contrary to the design of every other weapon. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 354	Posted - 2013.12.16 13:04:00 - [24] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I'm not listing numbers because CCP already has them and if the community really needs them I suggest looking them up personally. Combat Rifle versus Burst Assault Rifle: Combat Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower resource costs and lower price. Rail Rifle versus Breach Assault Rifle: Rail Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, (much) longer range and lower price. Resource costs are higher though. Scrambler Rifle versus Tactical Assault Rifle: Scrambler Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower price and the ability to charge for three times the damage. Resource costs are much higher however. So, if all the races have their primary variant and the other races have designs that emulate that... Why is it that the Assault Rifle, being the primary weapon of the Gallente, has such similar DPS values to the emulators that it's literally single digit differences? The range is the shortest and yet even the Rail Rifle (once charged) overshadows it in the damage factor. If they're meant to emulate the Assault Rifle than why is it that it's being outclassed? Honestly, given that they have lower ranges, -all- the Assault Rifles should have higher damage dealing capability than the other rifles because that's what they were designed for. Close range, high damage capability. That's not what we're seeing here and when the Kaalakiota Assault Rail Rifle has replaced the Duvolle Assault Rifle as my primary armory, despite having such intensive skill investment into the Duvolle, there's something strange going on. Amen to that. If it's going to be a Gallente weapon, make it Gallente. Anyone who gets within range should get wrecked before they even know what's going on. I'll second that
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 695	Posted - 2013.12.16 13:14:00 - [25] - Quote I think the main problem with the current weapons is that the RR is at least 2x better at close range than it should be. If you take that away, the blaster rifle would have a better generalist niche, which is exactly what it should have been in the first place. Good in any situation, but able to be beaten by the weapon that's the best in the situation. You should be able to beat the RR up close and the CR at range, but get taken out in the opposite situations. It should never have been the godvolle. People got used to that and now think it's UP. It's not, it's just not OP any more. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. Renegade Alliance 4146	Posted - 2013.12.16 16:19:00 - [26] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: I think the main problem with the current weapons is that the RR is at least 2x better at close range than it should be. If you take that away, the blaster rifle would have a better generalist niche, which is exactly what it should have been in the first place. Good in any situation, but able to be beaten by the weapon that's the best in the situation. You should be able to beat the RR up close and the CR at range, but get taken out in the opposite situations. It should never have been the godvolle. People got used to that and now think it's UP. It's not, it's just not OP any more. Nah dude, it was only ever over-powered because of the low TTK. Before the 10% increase to weapon damage back in like, Uprising 1.2, TTK seemed to take forever and that mostly due to shoddy hit detection and capped weapon ranges. The Plasma Rifle shouldn't be able to trump the Combat Rifle at range, the Combat Rifle was designed to have more range anyway. The Plasma Rifle SHOULD, however, be the absolute best there is in automatic fire at close range but it's comparable at best. No-one wants it to be OP or UP and saying "Nyeeeh the AR is OP!" is ignorant; I mean for christ's sake what you're basically saying is the the AR is no longer "OP" because they replaced it with a bunch of rifles that were MORE POWERFUL than it! All we want is for it to have it's niche, to be better than the emulators what it's supposed to be doing: Rapid dispatch of the enemy in close quarters. Doesn't make much sense if they all have the same DPS. forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m= (Frames)1544109 (Advertisement)1556863 (Packs)1570030 (Lag Hunt) 1570201
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 697	Posted - 2013.12.16 16:57:00 - [27] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I think the main problem with the current weapons is that the RR is at least 2x better at close range than it should be. If you take that away, the blaster rifle would have a better generalist niche, which is exactly what it should have been in the first place. Good in any situation, but able to be beaten by the weapon that's the best in the situation. You should be able to beat the RR up close and the CR at range, but get taken out in the opposite situations. It should never have been the godvolle. People got used to that and now think it's UP. It's not, it's just not OP any more. Nah dude, it was only ever over-powered because of the low TTK. Before the 10% increase to weapon damage back in like, Uprising 1.2, TTK seemed to take forever and that mostly due to shoddy hit detection and capped weapon ranges. The Plasma Rifle shouldn't be able to trump the Combat Rifle at range, the Combat Rifle was designed to have more range anyway. The Plasma Rifle SHOULD, however, be the absolute best there is in automatic fire at close range but it's comparable at best. No-one wants it to be OP or UP and saying "Nyeeeh the AR is OP!" is ignorant; I mean for christ's sake what you're basically saying is the the AR is no longer "OP" because they replaced it with a bunch of rifles that were MORE POWERFUL than it! All we want is for it to have it's niche, to be better than the emulators what it's supposed to be doing: Rapid dispatch of the enemy in close quarters. Doesn't make much sense if they all have the same DPS. That's all well and good, if it really were a blaster/plasma rifle, but it's not ranged like that. The AR's optimal/effective range is wider than the ScR and the effective is not much less than the CR, maybe 5-6m at most; sorta generalist. If you cut those ranges down a little more then you could make a good argument that the DPS should be buffed to make it the king of CQC rifles but if you did that with the current range it becomes too good at everything else again imo. There may be some finer points of how the damage is applied across those ranges that I will admit you likely know much more about than I do but, lore aside, it looks like a generalist weapon to me. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
Stephen Seneca State Patriots Templis Dragonaors 18	Posted - 2013.12.16 17:15:00 - [28] - Quote Like what John said. People using ARs could wreck everything before the new rifles came out. Now I have to worry about multiple types of rifles at all ranges. I used the Gek before the RR came out (Im Cal FW) without any proficiency skill and it was a mean piece of business.. and still is. For the State! Keep your stick on the ice and get the pucks in deep, eh.
Ghost Kaisar Kinsho Swords Caldari State 1185	Posted - 2013.12.16 17:31:00 - [29] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Scrambler Rifle versus Tactical Assault Rifle: Scrambler Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower price and the ability to charge for three times the damage. Resource costs are much higher however. It also overheats, and that's always fun... You realize that a Standard Assault (NOT AMARR) can burn through a clip and a half before overheat occurs right? If you are a good shot, that will NEVER happen. Minmatar Faction Warfare: Let's get Organized
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. Renegade Alliance 4146	Posted - 2013.12.16 18:50:00 - [30] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I think the main problem with the current weapons is that the RR is at least 2x better at close range than it should be. If you take that away, the blaster rifle would have a better generalist niche, which is exactly what it should have been in the first place. Good in any situation, but able to be beaten by the weapon that's the best in the situation. You should be able to beat the RR up close and the CR at range, but get taken out in the opposite situations. It should never have been the godvolle. People got used to that and now think it's UP. It's not, it's just not OP any more. Nah dude, it was only ever over-powered because of the low TTK. Before the 10% increase to weapon damage back in like, Uprising 1.2, TTK seemed to take forever and that mostly due to shoddy hit detection and capped weapon ranges. The Plasma Rifle shouldn't be able to trump the Combat Rifle at range, the Combat Rifle was designed to have more range anyway. The Plasma Rifle SHOULD, however, be the absolute best there is in automatic fire at close range but it's comparable at best. No-one wants it to be OP or UP and saying "Nyeeeh the AR is OP!" is ignorant; I mean for christ's sake what you're basically saying is the the AR is no longer "OP" because they replaced it with a bunch of rifles that were MORE POWERFUL than it! All we want is for it to have it's niche, to be better than the emulators what it's supposed to be doing: Rapid dispatch of the enemy in close quarters. Doesn't make much sense if they all have the same DPS. That's all well and good, if it really were a blaster/plasma rifle, but it's not ranged like that. The AR's optimal/effective range is wider than the ScR and the effective is not much less than the CR, maybe 5-6m at most; sorta generalist. If you cut those ranges down a little more then you could make a good argument that the DPS should be buffed to make it the king of CQC rifles but if you did that with the current range it becomes too good at everything else again imo. There may be some finer points of how the damage is applied across those ranges that I will admit you likely know much more about than I do but, lore aside, it looks like a generalist weapon to me. EDIT: neglected to mention you do have me on the CR range, I still have this concept in my head of the assault CR as a bigger SMG (or small HMG) but I guess thats not really accurate. http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/news.control/65468/1/rangeprofiles.jpg I'd argue that the Assault Rifle and the Assault Scrambler Rifle have the same range difference between optimal and effective, if that's what you mean't. The Assault Combat Rifle -does- have a slightly longer range (6m) and it's honestly the most well balanced as an Assault Variant; having slightly longer range and very slightly less damage BUT it does have reduced resource costs that make it a very good contender. Sacrificing less to get comparable damage and slightly more range. But this argument falls apart when you compare the Burst Assault Rifle to the Combat Rifle in which the Combat Rifle is better overall. The Burst Assault isn't even a good copy-cat by it's own right, it's just worse off in every way. So, the question remains: Do we make the Assault Rifle the best 'assault' variant or do we buff the other Plasma Rifle variants to be comparable to what they're trying to emulate? forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m= (Frames)1544109 (Advertisement)1556863 (Packs)1570030 (Lag Hunt) 1570201

Quil Evrything Triple Terrors 550	Posted - 2013.12.16 18:56:00 - [31] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: But see, the whole point is that the standard version is what the Assault variants of all the others are supposed to be copycatting. The issue is that it's inferior to the copycats, which is contrary to the design of every other weapon. Your "argument" doesnt make sense. They are not copycats, they are improved, specialized versions. As such, they SHOULD be better, and the original SHOULD be inferior. For all its supposed inferiority, though, it doesnt seem to stop me tearing through opponents, with a basic AR in FW. (and by basic, I mean "meta level 1")
CLONE117 planetary retaliation organisation 515	Posted - 2013.12.16 19:13:00 - [32] - Quote then what should perform better in cqc? the combat rifle. or the assault rifle? it seems the gallente assault rifle is losing in the one place where ppl say its supposed to be good at. thats what ive been seeing in game currently.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. Renegade Alliance 4146	Posted - 2013.12.16 19:26:00 - [33] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: But see, the whole point is that the standard version is what the Assault variants of all the others are supposed to be copycatting. The issue is that it's inferior to the copycats, which is contrary to the design of every other weapon. Your "argument" doesnt make sense. They are not copycats, they are improved, specialized versions. As such, they SHOULD be better, and the original SHOULD be inferior. For all its supposed inferiority, though, it doesnt seem to stop me tearing through opponents, with a basic AR in FW. (and by basic, I mean "meta level 1") First of all, you're wrong. CCP has stated in the past that the emulators are supposed to be inferior to the real thing. Second of all, by your logic, the Burst Assault Rifle should be better than the Combat, the Tactical Assault Rifle should be better than the Scrambler and the Breach Assault Rifle should be better than the Rail. forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m= (Frames)1544109 (Advertisement)1556863 (Packs)1570030 (Lag Hunt) 1570201
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 698	Posted - 2013.12.16 19:38:00 - [34] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/news.control/65468/1/rangeprofiles.jpg I'd argue that the Assault Rifle and the Assault Scrambler Rifle have the same range difference between optimal and effective, if that's what you mean't. The Assault Combat Rifle -does- have a slightly longer range (6m) and it's honestly the most well balanced as an Assault Variant; having slightly longer range and very slightly less damage BUT it does have reduced resource costs that make it a very good contender. Sacrificing less to get comparable damage and slightly more range. But this argument falls apart when you compare the Burst Assault Rifle to the Combat Rifle in which the Combat Rifle is better overall. The Burst Assault isn't even a good copy-cat by it's own right, it's just worse off in every way. So, the question remains: Do we make the Assault Rifle the best 'assault' variant or do we buff the other Plasma Rifle variants to be comparable to what they're trying to emulate? It's funny, I've gotten to like the CR and thought back to when I first tried the burst AR months ago, which as you noted, is a pretty crappy weapon. CR feels like a proper tactical assault weapon with short controlled bursts. I think the following is probably one of the easier ways to balance the rifles and give each a niche, as opposed to say, reworking all the Gallente rifles that have been around for a while: - CR stays the same, more or less. ScR as well. There may be a need for some balance passes but nothing major. - RR should be less effective close up; there are multiple ways to do that but getting rid of it's absurd hipfire accuracy is a good start. How a rail weapon that generates enough force to fire a projectile that far is able to be fired essentially as accurately as a laser weapon like the SCR without steadying it (i.e., ADS) defies even sci-fi logic. - AR gets a reduction in effective and perhaps even absolute range, with the optimal starting at very close range. Dispersion/kick gets increased, as does the DPS. It now becomes a murder machine in CQC but is no longer able to pick people off from a distance like the duvolle does now (silly for a blaster weapon). You now have your rock/paper/scissors + 1. AR is great in CQC. ScR (compared to RR) is the mid-range weapon, and the RR is obviously a killer at long range. Your +1 is the CR, which now becomes the versatile generalist weapon, as I guess maybe a Minmatar rifle should be. Your copycat weapons should be viewed as pseudo-inferior versions of the original with some tradeoffs to make it do something else than the original: - Assault ScR is the copycat of the AR, with longer range but lower DPS and the overheat mechanic. - Tac AR is the copycat of the ScR, shorter range, no charge, but better against armor. Maybe needs another buff somewhere like hipfire or DPS, not sure. - Burst AR, well, I'm not totally sure what to do about that one, haven't used it like I have the others. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
Sgt Kirk SyNergy Gaming EoN. 3598	Posted - 2013.12.16 19:44:00 - [35] - Quote This is true, All Gallente Rifles variants outside of the Assault Rifle should be lesser performed versions of the racial specific rifle. The actual Assault Rifle on the Other hand isn't better. The Ishk. Assault Rail Rifle is much better at close range than the Duvolle AR. (and no, just start charging before you pop out). Assault Combat rifle is on par with the Gallente AR as well. I just don't get CCP sometimes.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1747	Posted - 2013.12.17 00:52:00 - [36] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I'm not listing numbers because CCP already has them and if the community really needs them I suggest looking them up personally. Combat Rifle versus Burst Assault Rifle: Combat Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower resource costs and lower price. Rail Rifle versus Breach Assault Rifle: Rail Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, (much) longer range and lower price. Resource costs are higher though. Scrambler Rifle versus Tactical Assault Rifle: Scrambler Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower price and the ability to charge for three times the damage. Resource costs are much higher however. So, if all the races have their primary variant and the other races have designs that emulate that... Why is it that the Assault Rifle, being the primary weapon of the Gallente, has such similar DPS values to the emulators that it's literally single digit differences? The range is the shortest and yet even the Rail Rifle (once charged) overshadows it in the damage factor. If they're meant to emulate the Assault Rifle than why is it that it's being outclassed? Honestly, given that they have lower ranges, -all- the Assault Rifles should have higher damage dealing capability than the other rifles because that's what they were designed for. Close range, high damage capability. That's not what we're seeing here and when the Kaalakiota Assault Rail Rifle has replaced the Duvolle Assault Rifle as my primary armory, despite having such intensive skill investment into the Duvolle, there's something strange going on. Just remember the inverse is true as well. All racial assault variants are mildly inferior in some way to the Gallente AR...which is by design. Gallente baseline is Assault, Caldari - Breach, Minmatar - burst, Amarr - tactical. Non baseline types of weapons from a given race are degraded forms of some other races baseline weapons. (Fully understand that las sentence is a mouthful - sorry) My point is the other weapons aren't meant to emulate the Assault Rifle...just the racial Assault Variants are. Hail AR 514. Go AR or go home.
Ranger SnakeBlood OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 265	Posted - 2013.12.17 01:01:00 - [37] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Stephen Seneca wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen is correct. Gallente AR is the best at short range, there is no denying that. Using Gallente tech means you will always have a tendency for CQC and shorter ranges and highest dps. The -variants- are just that. Variations from the base Gal AR. In no way should a variant rifle outperform the base rifle of the race it is emulating. I feel like there is a good balance between rifles right now. TTK is too short. Remove AA and the 10% damage buff. "In no way should a variant rifle outperform the base rifle of the race it is emulating." Than why have the DPS values so similar with longer ranges? Assault Scrambler Rifle doesn't even overheat, as much as someone would try to convince you - if you don't believe me grab one and just hold down the trigger; takes -magazines- to overheat it. Assault Rail Rifle performs as well if not better than the Assault Rifle once it's fully charged Assault Combat Rifle is arguably better overall because of it's low resource costs; similar damage output and longer range. Well while they have simular DPS they also each have a weakness some are more of a draw back than others. ARR has a charge up as a weakness ASR has a overheat as a weakness ACR has the least damage per mag and is the quickest to empty its mag making reloads more frequent. Where as the Plasma AR doesnt really have a weakness like that
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 699	Posted - 2013.12.17 02:09:00 - [38] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: Hail AR 514 Hey, he's back! Gotta admit it, Buster is like a Cassandra figure around here... "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
Stephen Seneca State Patriots Templis Dragonaors 20	Posted - 2013.12.17 06:12:00 - [39] - Quote Speaking of weaknessess.. does anyone else find hit detection issues with the RRs? I was getting hit by CRs at around 80m and up to 100m while my SB-39 wasnt lighting them up. This is the second day it has happened. Most days at those ranges Im able to score kills or have them run for cover. Just wondering. For the State! Keep your stick on the ice and get the pucks in deep, eh. Rail Rifles. All. The. Way!
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. Renegade Alliance 4164	Posted - 2013.12.17 09:51:00 - [40] - Quote Ranger SnakeBlood wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Stephen Seneca wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen is correct. Gallente AR is the best at short range, there is no denying that. Using Gallente tech means you will always have a tendency for CQC and shorter ranges and highest dps. The -variants- are just that. Variations from the base Gal AR. In no way should a variant rifle outperform the base rifle of the race it is emulating. I feel like there is a good balance between rifles right now. TTK is too short. Remove AA and the 10% damage buff. "In no way should a variant rifle outperform the base rifle of the race it is emulating." Than why have the DPS values so similar with longer ranges? Assault Scrambler Rifle doesn't even overheat, as much as someone would try to convince you - if you don't believe me grab one and just hold down the trigger; takes -magazines- to overheat it. Assault Rail Rifle performs as well if not better than the Assault Rifle once it's fully charged Assault Combat Rifle is arguably better overall because of it's low resource costs; similar damage output and longer range. Well while they have simular DPS they also each have a weakness some are more of a draw back than others. ARR has a charge up as a weakness ASR has a overheat as a weakness ACR has the least damage per mag and is the quickest to empty its mag making reloads more frequent. Where as the Plasma AR doesnt really have a weakness like that I always laugh at people who bring up "overheat" like it's some kind of valid argument. Goes to show that you've never used the weapon and obviously have no clue what your talking about but that's okay! It's a learning experience. forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m= (Frames)1544109 (Advertisement)1556863 (Packs)1570030 (Lag Hunt) 1570201

Niuvo NECROM0NGERS Covert Intervention 871	Posted - 2013.12.17 11:23:00 - [41] - Quote Ensar Cael wrote: The problem with all these weapons is the range. Its too ******* long and absolutely pointless for the most part. Getting killed from over 100 meters out by an AR, SCR, etc invalidates a large part of the game due tot he fact of the large damage that can still be done. In short to medium range these weapons should be stupidly devastating, but beyond 50-60 metres they should be weak. That makes for a more intense set of fights in a more tactical sense. Right now it's blast away and drop people super quick, super easy. TL;DR Too much damage at range on assault weapons. Kill damage rate massively after 50-60 meters. Flame away... I agree with this man.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 36	Posted - 2013.12.17 14:50:00 - [42] - Quote -1
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 361	Posted - 2013.12.17 15:03:00 - [43] - Quote Stephen Seneca wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen is correct. Gallente AR is the best at short range, there is no denying that. Using Gallente tech means you will always have a tendency for CQC and shorter ranges and highest dps. The -variants- are just that. Variations from the base Gal AR. In no way should a variant rifle outperform the base rifle of the race it is emulating. I feel like there is a good balance between rifles right now. TTK is too short. Remove AA and the 10% damage buff. Hardly my ACR beats ARs allthe time hell even the CR does this. Not to mention the RR or ARR their high damage output paired with high hipfire accuracy clearly negletes the spool up time.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 361	Posted - 2013.12.17 15:07:00 - [44] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: I think the main problem with the current weapons is that the RR is at least 2x better at close range than it should be. If you take that away, the blaster rifle would have a better generalist niche, which is exactly what it should have been in the first place. Good in any situation, but able to be beaten by the weapon that's the best in the situation. You should be able to beat the RR up close and the CR at range, but get taken out in the opposite situations. It should never have been the godvolle. People got used to that and now think it's UP. It's not, it's just not OP any more. So could you explain why its not UP? The duvolle has basicly the same DPS than all the other rifles while having less range and at least the CR,ACR,RR and ARR as accurate (or more accurate) as well. So where is the glorious advantage of the Gallente Ar compared to those weapons that should be halfway decent copies of the gallente design?
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 706	Posted - 2013.12.17 17:04:00 - [45] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: I think the main problem with the current weapons is that the RR is at least 2x better at close range than it should be. If you take that away, the blaster rifle would have a better generalist niche, which is exactly what it should have been in the first place. Good in any situation, but able to be beaten by the weapon that's the best in the situation. You should be able to beat the RR up close and the CR at range, but get taken out in the opposite situations. It should never have been the godvolle. People got used to that and now think it's UP. It's not, it's just not OP any more. So could you explain why its not UP? The duvolle has basicly the same DPS than all the other rifles while having less range and at least the CR,ACR,RR and ARR as accurate (or more accurate) as well. So where is the glorious advantage of the Gallente Ar compared to those weapons that should be halfway decent copies of the gallente design? That particular post of mine was poorly worded and a little innacurate, I'll admit. Maybe a better term would have been that it seems like it got "nerfed" as opposed to being UP now. It also depends on what you think it should be. Should it be the generalist weapon or should it be the CQC blaster rifle? As a generalist weapon it's OK right now, maybe could use a little tweak here and there to give it some advantages over the ACR in certain situations. If, on the other hand, you think it should be a CQC shredder, then it needs a significant range nerf, wider dispersion, and increased DPS like I mentioned in a subsequent post. It becomes a small HMG. Also: Aeon - I'm interested to hear your thoughts on my proposal about the AR, you know, the one I actually put some thought into, not the one quoted above. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1824	Posted - 2013.12.17 20:24:00 - [46] - Quote I'm not sure the AR needs a big buff. I'd say just upping the capacity of the AR to 80 would be enough so that it can keep going while any other rifle would need to stop to reload. The AR's niche is mid-close engagements with shield tankers. It only stands to reason that in an environment where everybody is using mostly armor plates at mid-long range that the AR would turn up short in many encounters. Keep in mind that the CR and the RR have a solid 20% better profile against armor than the AR. Until the meta shifts back to shields being more useful than armor and damage mods the AR really shouldn't be the best all around weapon. The AR could use some work with variants to make up for that, but after about 2 years of being the hands down best weapon I don't think it's that big of a deal that the AR is on the back burner. Everything is cyclical. once people start running more shields to protect them from anti-armor weapons like the CR and RR the AR will perform much better. Try to kill it all you want CCP, I still <3 my laser.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. Renegade Alliance 4167	Posted - 2013.12.18 00:22:00 - [47] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: If, on the other hand, you think it should be a CQC shredder, then it needs a significant range nerf, wider dispersion, and increased DPS like I mentioned in a subsequent post. It becomes a small HMG. Also: Aeon - I'm interested to hear your thoughts on my proposal about the AR, you know, the one I actually put some thought into, not the one quoted above. I assume you mean this one. I had actually stated a while back that the Assault Rifle could use a minute range reduction (at most ten meters in the optimal, bringing it's optimal range down to 30-ish) and a higher DPS to accomodate it's CQC nature. It should be the weapon that you're terrified to go against in an Outpost but aren't concerned about outside of said Outpost. Unfortunately, with the Assault variants of the other rifles, even with Proficiency 4 and Fitting Optimization 3 I've dropped it completely in favor of the Assault Rail Rifle. Talos Alomar wrote: I'm not sure the AR needs a big buff. I'd say just upping the capacity of the AR to 80 would be enough so that it can keep going while any other rifle would need to stop to reload. The AR's niche is mid-close engagements with shield tankers. It only stands to reason that in an environment where everybody is using mostly armor plates at mid-long range that the AR would turn up short in many encounters. Keep in mind that the CR and the RR have a solid 20% better profile against armor than the AR. Until the meta shifts back to shields being more useful than armor and damage mods the AR really shouldn't be the best all around weapon. The AR could use some work with variants to make up for that, but after about 2 years of being the hands down best weapon I don't think it's that big of a deal that the AR is on the back burner. Everything is cyclical. once people start running more shields to protect them from anti-armor weapons like the CR and RR the AR will perform much better. TTK is way too short for there to be any significant difference in the efficiency against armor/shields - this is why the Assault Scrambler Rifle, when used against armor, feels like an Assault Rifle. High damage is high damage; you can shave off 20% and it's not going to matter. If the weapon dishes out 500 DPS, that's still 400 DPS going down range, meaning that even the most hardy of suits can only take about three seconds of fire, max. I've advocated previously that resistances need to be exaggerated. Something like Explosives doing -50/+50% to shields/armor (like the grenades, afterall) and Laser based weaponry doing +50/-50% with the rest going somewhere in between. That's just a rough estimate as I haven't run the numbers but you'd definitely see a lot more "Rock, Paper, Scissors" gameplay than what you're seeing now. forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m= (Frames)1544109 (Advertisement)1556863 (Packs)1570030 (Lag Hunt) 1570201
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 717	Posted - 2013.12.18 01:06:00 - [48] - Quote This one. The one you quoted wasn't me! John Demonsbane wrote: It's funny, I've gotten to like the CR and thought back to when I first tried the burst AR months ago, which as you noted, is a pretty crappy weapon. CR feels like a proper tactical assault weapon with short controlled bursts. I think the following is probably one of the easier ways to balance the rifles and give each a niche, as opposed to say, reworking all the Gallente rifles that have been around for a while: - CR stays the same, more or less. ScR as well. There may be a need for some balance passes but nothing major. - RR should be less effective close up; there are multiple ways to do that but getting rid of it's absurd hipfire accuracy is a good start. How a rail weapon that generates enough force to fire a projectile that far is able to be fired essentially as accurately as a laser weapon like the SCR without steadying it (i.e., ADS) defies even sci-fi logic. - AR gets a reduction in effective and perhaps even absolute range, with the optimal starting at very close range. Dispersion/kick gets increased, as does the DPS. It now becomes a murder machine in CQC but is no longer able to pick people off from a distance like the duvolle does now (silly for a blaster weapon). You now have your rock/paper/scissors + 1. AR is great in CQC. ScR (compared to RR) is the mid-range weapon, and the RR is obviously a killer at long range. Your +1 is the CR, which now becomes the versatile generalist weapon, as I guess maybe a Minmatar rifle should be. Your copycat weapons should be viewed as pseudo-inferior versions of the original with some tradeoffs to make it do something else than the original: - Assault ScR is the copycat of the AR, with longer range but lower DPS and the overheat mechanic. - Tac AR is the copycat of the ScR, shorter range, no charge, but better against armor. Maybe needs another buff somewhere like hipfire or DPS, not sure. - Burst AR, well, I'm not totally sure what to do about that one, haven't used it like I have the others. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. Renegade Alliance 4167	Posted - 2013.12.18 01:24:00 - [49] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: This one. The one you quoted wasn't me! John Demonsbane wrote: It's funny, I've gotten to like the CR and thought back to when I first tried the burst AR months ago, which as you noted, is a pretty crappy weapon. CR feels like a proper tactical assault weapon with short controlled bursts. I think the following is probably one of the easier ways to balance the rifles and give each a niche, as opposed to say, reworking all the Gallente rifles that have been around for a while: - CR stays the same, more or less. ScR as well. There may be a need for some balance passes but nothing major. - RR should be less effective close up; there are multiple ways to do that but getting rid of it's absurd hipfire accuracy is a good start. How a rail weapon that generates enough force to fire a projectile that far is able to be fired essentially as accurately as a laser weapon like the SCR without steadying it (i.e., ADS) defies even sci-fi logic. - AR gets a reduction in effective and perhaps even absolute range, with the optimal starting at very close range. Dispersion/kick gets increased, as does the DPS. It now becomes a murder machine in CQC but is no longer able to pick people off from a distance like the duvolle does now (silly for a blaster weapon). You now have your rock/paper/scissors + 1. AR is great in CQC. ScR (compared to RR) is the mid-range weapon, and the RR is obviously a killer at long range. Your +1 is the CR, which now becomes the versatile generalist weapon, as I guess maybe a Minmatar rifle should be. Your copycat weapons should be viewed as pseudo-inferior versions of the original with some tradeoffs to make it do something else than the original: - Assault ScR is the copycat of the AR, with longer range but lower DPS and the overheat mechanic. - Tac AR is the copycat of the ScR, shorter range, no charge, but better against armor. Maybe needs another buff somewhere like hipfire or DPS, not sure. - Burst AR, well, I'm not totally sure what to do about that one, haven't used it like I have the others. What do you mean it wasn't you? You said it! Anyway, now that I know what we're talking about... I'm against reducing the Rail Rifle's hipfire accuracy as I'm largely under the impression that it won't solve anything but make it worse. If you increase hipfire dispersion than you're making a -better- CQC weapon as there's more room for error; part of the reason the HMG is imbalanced at the moment is because of it's laser-like accuracy but I'm under the impression this will get better after tonight's downtime. As said before, the only thing the Assault Rifle needs is to have it's range reduced by 5-10m (both optimal and effective), no more, and it's DPS increased. If it still isn't working out as the best CQC choice after that we can **** with the dispersion and what not. "- Assault ScR is the copycat of the AR, with longer range but lower DPS and the overheat mechanic. " Overheat isn't a factor because it takes almost two entire magazines to overheat it and that's without skills/being on the amarr assault suit. It's DPS is lower but it's so marginal that it doesn't even matter, so that needs to be changed either on the ASCR or the AR's DPS; either will work, I feel. "- Tac AR is the copycat of the ScR, shorter range, no charge, but better against armor. Maybe needs another buff somewhere like hipfire or DPS, not sure." DPS. 'better against armor' isn't a good factor because, as said previously, the difference in efficiency is so minute it can't be considered a good variable with TTK being low. SCR does have overheat but considering someone can fire 20-25 rounds before overheating (more so than the TAR's entire magazine) and the fact that it can charge a shot to do three times the normal damage, it usurps the TAR completely. This would be fine, if the Assault Rifle usurped the rest of the Assault variants; but it's comparable at best. "- Burst AR, well, I'm not totally sure what to do about that one, haven't used it like I have the others." Eh, no comment. At least until I find my notes concerning the differences. forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m= (Frames)1544109 (Advertisement)1556863 (Packs)1570030 (Lag Hunt) 1570201
General Erick Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 192	Posted - 2013.12.18 01:33:00 - [50] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Amen to that. If it's going to be a Gallente weapon, make it Gallente. Anyone who gets within range should get wrecked before they even know what's going on. That pretty much already happens My Big Brother is watching you.

John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 717	Posted - 2013.12.18 02:46:00 - [51] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: This one. The one you quoted wasn't me! John Demonsbane wrote: It's funny, I've gotten to like the CR and thought back to when I first tried the burst AR months ago, which as you noted, is a pretty crappy weapon. CR feels like a proper tactical assault weapon with short controlled bursts. I think the following is probably one of the easier ways to balance the rifles and give each a niche, as opposed to say, reworking all the Gallente rifles that have been around for a while: - CR stays the same, more or less. ScR as well. There may be a need for some balance passes but nothing major. - RR should be less effective close up; there are multiple ways to do that but getting rid of it's absurd hipfire accuracy is a good start. How a rail weapon that generates enough force to fire a projectile that far is able to be fired essentially as accurately as a laser weapon like the SCR without steadying it (i.e., ADS) defies even sci-fi logic. - AR gets a reduction in effective and perhaps even absolute range, with the optimal starting at very close range. Dispersion/kick gets increased, as does the DPS. It now becomes a murder machine in CQC but is no longer able to pick people off from a distance like the duvolle does now (silly for a blaster weapon). You now have your rock/paper/scissors + 1. AR is great in CQC. ScR (compared to RR) is the mid-range weapon, and the RR is obviously a killer at long range. Your +1 is the CR, which now becomes the versatile generalist weapon, as I guess maybe a Minmatar rifle should be. Your copycat weapons should be viewed as pseudo-inferior versions of the original with some tradeoffs to make it do something else than the original: - Assault ScR is the copycat of the AR, with longer range but lower DPS and the overheat mechanic. - Tac AR is the copycat of the ScR, shorter range, no charge, but better against armor. Maybe needs another buff somewhere like hipfire or DPS, not sure. - Burst AR, well, I'm not totally sure what to do about that one, haven't used it like I have the others. What do you mean it wasn't you? You said it! Anyway, now that I know what we're talking about... I'm against reducing the Rail Rifle's hipfire accuracy as I'm largely under the impression that it won't solve anything but make it worse. If you increase hipfire dispersion than you're making a -better- CQC weapon as there's more room for error; part of the reason the HMG is imbalanced at the moment is because of it's laser-like accuracy but I'm under the impression this will get better after tonight's downtime. As said before, the only thing the Assault Rifle needs is to have it's range reduced by 5-10m (both optimal and effective), no more, and it's DPS increased. If it still isn't working out as the best CQC choice after that we can ** with the dispersion and what not. "- Assault ScR is the copycat of the AR, with longer range but lower DPS and the overheat mechanic. " Overheat isn't a factor because it takes almost two entire magazines to overheat it and that's without skills/being on the amarr assault suit. It's DPS is lower but it's so marginal that it doesn't even matter, so that needs to be changed either on the ASCR or the AR's DPS; either will work, I feel. "- Tac AR is the copycat of the ScR, shorter range, no charge, but better against armor. Maybe needs another buff somewhere like hipfire or DPS, not sure." DPS. 'better against armor' isn't a good factor because, as said previously, the difference in efficiency is so minute it can't be considered a good variable with TTK being low. SCR does have overheat but considering someone can fire 20-25 rounds before overheating (more so than the TAR's entire magazine) and the fact that it can charge a shot to do three times the normal damage, it usurps the TAR completely. This would be fine, if the Assault Rifle usurped the rest of the Assault variants; but it's comparable at best. "- Burst AR, well, I'm not totally sure what to do about that one, haven't used it like I have the others." Eh, no comment. At least until I find my notes concerning the differences. Edit: Honest to god, I hate talking specifics because in the end I'm the not the guy who has to balance everything out. That's CCP's job. Just saying that I feel the Assault Rifle should be the best automatic-fire CQC weapon is all my job entails. So take all of this at face value. You quoted Talos Alomar, not me! Anyway, I'm not sure the ROF of the RR is high enough like the HMG that spraying is super effective, I mean, it has a decent amount of barrel climb to keep it from being laser accurate like the HMG. It seems to me like the initial first shots are too accurate considering it's a long range weapon, but I guess the HMG does prove that you can be too accurate so who knows. As for the AScR, it has more kick/dispersion than the AR as well. That plus the crazy fitting costs are big enough drawbacks if you ask me. I love my Amarr weapons but I ditched my CRD-09 for the GEK pre 1.7, that should tell you something. I think we probably agree for the most part about the AR. TAR and breach? Dunno. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics"** -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. Renegade Alliance 4167	Posted - 2013.12.18 02:56:00 - [52] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: You quoted Talos Alomar, not me! Dude, scroll up and read your own post O_o;;; forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m= (Frames)1544109 (Advertisement)1556863 (Packs)1570030 (Lag Hunt) 1570201
Stephen Seneca State Patriots EVE Alliance 20131217 21	Posted - 2013.12.18 03:56:00 - [53] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Stephen Seneca wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen is correct. Gallente AR is the best at short range, there is no denying that. Using Gallente tech means you will always have a tendency for CQC and shorter ranges and highest dps. The -variants- are just that. Variations from the base Gal AR. In no way should a variant rifle outperform the base rifle of the race it is emulating. I feel like there is a good balance between rifles right now. TTK is too short. Remove AA and the 10% damage buff. Hardly my ACR beats ARs allthe time hell even the CR does this. Not to mention the RR or ARR their high damage output paired with high hipfire accuracy clearly negletes the spool up time. I have noticed the combat rifles tendency to rip me up. I use a Cal Assault C-I with 2 basic plates and figured my RRs RoF and hopping around plus the odd hit detection thing was the reason. The RRs arent good at close range compared to all other rifles. I am hard pressed to find 1 aspect of it that is better at cqc than any rifle. For the State! Keep your stick on the ice and get the pucks in deep, eh. Rail Rifles. All. The. Way!
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1826	Posted - 2013.12.18 03:57:00 - [54] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: TTK is way too short for there to be any significant difference in the efficiency against armor/shields - this is why the Assault Scrambler Rifle, when used against armor, feels like an Assault Rifle. High damage is high damage; you can shave off 20% and it's not going to matter. If the weapon dishes out 500 DPS, that's still 400 DPS going down range, meaning that even the most hardy of suits can only take about three seconds of fire, max. I've advocated previously that resistances need to be exaggerated. Something like Explosives doing -50/+50% to shields/armor (like the grenades, afterall) and Laser based weaponry doing +50/-50% with the rest going somewhere in between. That's just a rough estimate as I haven't run the numbers but you'd definitely see a lot more "Rock, Paper, Scissors" gameplay than what you're seeing now. Seriously guys, it's ok to snip down a quote. If people need to they can scroll up. Some of these posts are getting out of hand. But back to the topic. The only time it's came down to just hoping I survive an onslaught it usually means that we've been caught with our pants down, and we're going to die. Any real firefight has been a bit more chaotic than just on-paper dps going down range. There's missed shots, reloading, multiple targets, you name it happens. When it comes down to the partial DPS of a weapon being applied that makes a huge difference. the extra 20% damage a shot is why often times when I'm in CQC and running my exile or assault scrambler I switch to my SMG. While I do think that the TTK is too low, I think resistances are mostly OK where they are - kinetic weapons should be brought down to 105% vs armor because it's silly they have less weakness to shield than rails but the same bonus to armor. I don't really want to see a cut and dry rock-paper-scissors sort of dynamic occur though. Every weapon class should be able to perform decently in most conditions, it should just be the matter of bringing the right variant for where you are going to be fighting. I don't know if all the variants are really that bad for the AR (I've heard conflicting reports) or if the standard AR is still good enough for most situations. Try to kill it all you want CCP, I still <3 my laser.
General12912 Gallente Marine Corps 36	Posted - 2013.12.18 04:08:00 - [55] - Quote Agreed. Since the AR is already the shortest ranged rifle in the game, all we would need is a buff the make it stronger at closer ranges. The rail rifle is ridiculous. I had was using a gk.0 assault with a Federation Duvolle specialist AR. I got into a close range engagement with a standard rail rifle and dropsuit, an I LOST!!! The rail rifle was better at close range than the Gallentean AR was, and it was standard vs. Prototype too. We need a serious buff somehow to make the AR the best at relatively CQC for a racial rifle
Stephen Seneca State Patriots EVE Alliance 20131217 21	Posted - 2013.12.18 04:19:00 - [56] - Quote General12912 wrote: Agreed. Since the AR is already the shortest ranged rifle in the game, all we would need is a buff the make it stronger at closer ranges. The rail rifle is ridiculous. I had was using a gk.0 assault with a Federation Duvolle specialist AR. I got into a close range engagement with a standard rail rifle and dropsuit, an I LOST!!! The rail rifle was better at close range than the Gallentean AR was, and it was standard vs. Prototype too. We need a serious buff somehow to make the AR the best at relatively CQC for a racial rifle If that was a common occurence there would be an issue. I guarantee you that doesnt happen too much. Was he the only guy that hit you? Did it lag out a bit? How close is close range? Headshots? Of course it can happen but in no way is any RR better than an AR up close. Certain people might just kicck ass with the RR. For the State! Keep your stick on the ice and get the pucks in deep, eh. Rail Rifles. All. The. Way!
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. Renegade Alliance 4168	Posted - 2013.12.18 04:25:00 - [57] - Quote Stephen Seneca wrote: General12912 wrote: Agreed. Since the AR is already the shortest ranged rifle in the game, all we would need is a buff the make it stronger at closer ranges. The rail rifle is ridiculous. I had was using a gk.0 assault with a Federation Duvolle specialist AR. I got into a close range engagement with a standard rail rifle and dropsuit, an I LOST!!! The rail rifle was better at close range than the Gallentean AR was, and it was standard vs. Prototype too. We need a serious buff somehow to make the AR the best at relatively CQC for a racial rifle If that was a common occurence there would be an issue. I guarantee you that doesnt happen too much. Was he the only guy that hit you? Did it lag out a bit? How close is close range? Headshots? Of course it can happen but in no way is any RR better than an AR up close. Certain people might just kicck ass with the RR. Assault Rail Rifle is better because of the high damage rounds and excellent accuracy. forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m= (Frames)1544109 (Advertisement)1556863 (Packs)1570030 (Lag Hunt) 1570201
General12912 Gallente Marine Corps 37	Posted - 2013.12.18 04:30:00 - [58] - Quote Stephen Seneca wrote: General12912 wrote: Agreed. Since the AR is already the shortest ranged rifle in the game, all we would need is a buff the make it stronger at closer ranges. The rail rifle is ridiculous. I had was using a gk.0 assault with a Federation Duvolle specialist AR. I got into a close range engagement with a standard rail rifle and dropsuit, an I LOST!!! The rail rifle was better at close range than the Gallentean AR was, and it was standard vs. Prototype too. We need a serious buff somehow to make the AR the best at relatively CQC for a racial rifle If that was a common occurence there would be an issue. I guarantee you that doesnt happen too much. Was he the only guy that hit you? Did it lag out a bit? How close is close range? Headshots? Of course it can happen but in no way is any RR better than an AR up close. Certain people might just kicck ass with the RR. It was a one on one standoff. He was headed toward an objective i had just spawned at. And it wasnt the only time i was outmatched by a rr at close range.
Stephen Seneca State Patriots EVE Alliance 20131217 21	Posted - 2013.12.18 05:20:00 - [59] - Quote High damage rounds with lower RoF, if you miss a couple shots it gets pretty dicey. Does the ARR put out more DPS than the AR? For the State! Keep your stick on the ice and get the pucks in deep, eh. Rail Rifles. All. The. Way!
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. Renegade Alliance 4170	Posted - 2013.12.18 10:39:00 - [60] - Quote Stephen Seneca wrote: High damage rounds with lower RoF, if you miss a couple shots it gets pretty dicey. Does the ARR put out more DPS than the AR? When charged, yes. forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m= (Frames)1544109 (Advertisement)1556863 (Packs)1570030 (Lag Hunt) 1570201

Alam Storm Third Rock From The Sun INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 35	Posted - 2013.12.18 11:50:00 - [61] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I'm not listing numbers because CCP already has them and if the community really needs them I suggest looking them up personally. Combat Rifle versus Burst Assault Rifle: Combat Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower resource costs and lower price. Rail Rifle versus Breach Assault Rifle: Rail Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, (much) longer range and lower price. Resource costs are higher though. Scrambler Rifle versus Tactical Assault Rifle: Scrambler Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower price and the ability to charge for three times the damage. Resource costs are much higher however. So, if all the races have their primary variant and the other races have designs that emulate that... Why is it that the Assault Rifle, being the primary weapon of the Gallente, has such similar DPS values to the emulators that it's literally single digit differences? The range is the shortest and yet even the Rail Rifle (once charged) overshadows it in the damage factor. If they're meant to emulate the Assault Rifle than why is it that it's being outclassed? Honestly, given that they have lower ranges, -all- the Assault Rifles should have higher damage dealing capability than the other rifles because that's what they were designed for. Close range, high damage capability. That's not what we're seeing here and when the Kaalakiota Assault Rail Rifle has replaced the Duvolle Assault Rifle as my primary armory, despite having such intensive skill investment into the Duvolle, there's something strange going on. one of the issues is also that the other 3 rifles have scopes or sights on them i know the assault rifle is designed for CQC but even is they put a sight on it it will even the balance assault rifles had scopes taken off because they were to effective against sniper rifles now the range on the assault has been reduced why not put a better sight on the assault rifle after all whats to stop a rail rifle or a combat ridle doing the exact same thing the assault rifle done?
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. Renegade Alliance 4170	Posted - 2013.12.18 12:39:00 - [62] - Quote Alam Storm wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I'm not listing numbers because CCP already has them and if the community really needs them I suggest looking them up personally. Combat Rifle versus Burst Assault Rifle: Combat Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower resource costs and lower price. Rail Rifle versus Breach Assault Rifle: Rail Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, (much) longer range and lower price. Resource costs are higher though. Scrambler Rifle versus Tactical Assault Rifle: Scrambler Rifle has higher damage rounds, faster rate of fire, longer range, lower price and the ability to charge for three times the damage. Resource costs are much higher however. So, if all the races have their primary variant and the other races have designs that emulate that... Why is it that the Assault Rifle, being the primary weapon of the Gallente, has such similar DPS values to the emulators that it's literally single digit differences? The range is the shortest and yet even the Rail Rifle (once charged) overshadows it in the damage factor. If they're meant to emulate the Assault Rifle than why is it that it's being outclassed? Honestly, given that they have lower ranges, -all- the Assault Rifles should have higher damage dealing capability than the other rifles because that's what they were designed for. Close range, high damage capability. That's not what we're seeing here and when the Kaalakiota Assault Rail Rifle has replaced the Duvolle Assault Rifle as my primary armory, despite having such intensive skill investment into the Duvolle, there's something strange going on. one of the issues is also that the other 3 rifles have scopes or sights on them i know the assault rifle is designed for CQC but even is they put a sight on it it will even the balance assault rifles had scopes taken off because they were to effective against sniper rifles now the range on the assault has been reduced why not put a better sight on the assault rifle after all whats to stop a rail rifle or a combat ridle doing the exact same thing the assault rifle done? The last time the range was reduced was when we shifted from Chromosome to Uprising back in May; the last time they did anything to the range was in 1.7 and it was actually increased (slightly). I wouldn't really like an Assault Rifle with a scope, myself; but I can see how other players might like it. That seems like something more suited for weapon customization later on in the game's development. forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m= (Frames)1544109 (Advertisement)1556863 (Packs)1570030 (Lag Hunt) 1570201
The-Errorist Closed For Business For All Mankind 399	Posted - 2013.12.20 04:32:00 - [63] - Quote I agree with you and that guy who posted in the wrong section of the forums: BL4CKST4R wrote: Just because a gun has equal DPS to other weapons does not mean it's balanced. Let's use two iconic weapons from any MMO, a dagger vs a warhammer. The dagger has higher DPS than the warhammer but the dagger has shorter range and low burst damage while the warhammer has longer range and higher burst damage. What do these 3 things mean though? Well DPS is obviously the sustained damage of said weapon, the range is the distance the damage is applied, and burst damage is the amount of damage the weapon does on the first hit. Now let's apply this simple balanced concept to Dust and where it IS working and where it is NOT. Blaster tank vs rail tank. At close range the blaster tank wins due to higher DPS and faster turning speeds, at long range rail wins due to high burst damage and a damage range outside of the rail turret. Any gun vs a sniper rifle, at short range any gun can ill a sniper rifle, granted he doesn't use a side arm, at long range the sniper rifle will win (thale always wins that's the loophole ). Where it doesn't work is in the light weapon range. For example the rail rifle can compete with any short range weapon at short range, but the contrary is not possible. Equally the DPS, range, and burst damage is out of whack with long range weapons being able to apply damage throughout the entirety of their range. In all of the above scenarios a long range weapon cannot beat a short range weapon at short range. Although the long range weapon has higher damage, the short range DPS out classes the high damage. This is how the light weapons should work, not just the rifles. Shotgun and laser rifle are the only exceptions. Tl; dr/ summary Short range = High DPS/Low damage/Low burst/Fast (Assault rifle, assault combat rifle, shotgun) Medium range= obviously in between all of this... (Combat rifle, Assault scrambler rifle, mass driver) Long range= Low DPS/High damage/High burst/Slow (All rail rifles, scrambler rifle, laser rifle) Since all weapons have the same DPS, while long range weapons maintain the high burst damage and when there is no penalty when they come to short range combat (like bad hipfire/high recoil), except the scrambler, then long range weapons will always dominate the field. To fix this reduce DPS, and clip as range increases, and increase recoil slightly, and hipfire spread as range increases. As ROF increases increase recoil greatly.


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