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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4177
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Posted - 2013.12.15 06:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
There's one REALLY MASSIVE problem with this proposal.
2 HAVs.
2 Dropships.
3 LAVs.
7 total.
2 + 2 + 3 = 7.
This means you're making allowances for precisely ZERO variety in a team's vehicle complement. Everyone WILL bring the maximum number of HAVs and Dropships into EVERY match.
7 total is good. We already have that.
Max 3 HAVs.
Max 3 Dropships.
Max 5 combined total HAV/Assault Dropship (regular Dropships can ignore this limit)
Max 5 LAVs.
This means that your team vehicle complement can actually vary significantly from one match to the next.
Also, while tanks are MOSTLY balanced, I don't believe they're truly RIGHT yet - HAVs move far too fast (especially armour HAVS), not only in comparison with infantry but also with other vehicles which should be reasonably expected to outpace them a LOT more easily than they do. It's completely ridiculous that - WITHOUT mods - my Sica has a higher movement speed than my Onikuma WITH mods. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4251
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Posted - 2013.12.20 01:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:4)In reality the problem isn't solved its just more concentrated and more likely to play to its ultimatum quicker. In the current situation having enough tanks is why infantry can get by largely unscathed, because they have juicier targets.
No.In the current situation having 4+ GOOD tankers on one side makes a game impossible, yup you read right, IMPOSSIBLE to win for infantry.Yesterday,in a pub skirm, we got redlined in Ashland by 5 tanks. There was NOTHING to do, you called in a tank, rail sniped. You took out AV wither a tank killed you because they always had hardeners on OR infantry killed you because you didnt have weaponry appropriate for killing infantry.
Belive me , INFANTRY DOES NOT GET ''UNSCATHED''.
That's nice.
I joined a pub match where the enemy team had a wall of tanks redlining us. Guess what I did? I ducked as far back as the redline allowed, went around skirting the edges of the non-lethal area until I was far enough forward to see enemies, then backed up just a little, and dropped an Uplink behind a ridge so my teammates could spawn there.
Then I drew a little fire my way, before falling back and watching as teammates started spawning and drawing enemy fire towards that side of our redline.
I went off towards the other side of it, snuck out past the back end of the tank blockade which was now looking the other way, AND CALLED IN A TANK.
I had a building to cover me against Railgun fire, so their tanks couldn't shoot me down, and I was far enough out of the way not to get murdered on landing. I had time to hop in, get my bearings, then head into combat.
I got lucky rounding the corner into an enemy tank with its hardeners down. BOOM. Next one was an armour tank against my Missiles, and took heavy damage even through its hardener - obviously it had been cycling them for dealing with our infantry and didn't have a second hardener to pop at a moment's notice. That forced them to fall back, breaking the enemy line and letting my team start to move up. Another guy called in his own tank while the enemy blockade was disrupted, and it landed safely, though it took some damage before he could get his actives running. This turned the fight into 2 vs. 5, but that was enough - in conjunction with the couple of AV guys good enough not to have already died - to tip the balance.
No, we didn't wipe out their tanks. No, my tank didn't single-handedly win the day. MY UPLINK DID MORE OF THE WORK THAN MY TANK.
If I had been running my Scout alt instead of my tanker, I'd have used my Uplink fitting, done basically the same thing to start with, but then run around the back of the enemy team and gone to hack the objectives instead of calling in my tank. Obviously, I'd keep an eye out for REs, because they tend not to be too friendly towards Scouts while we hack things. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4251
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Posted - 2013.12.20 01:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:@ Garrett Blacknova:Thats nice. cool story bro. The problem is still here.
The main problem is stupid people.
Good luck finding a solution with game mechanics that isn't "make CoD in space".
Stupid people will be stupid. Smart people will find ways to exploit their stupidity as long as the game is intelligent enough to allow it.
I've seen multiple games of DUST where a tank-heavy team has either been straight-up dominated by infantry or has had the tides turned by a couple of SMART moves when they were dominating. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4251
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Posted - 2013.12.20 02:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:You think you are so smart just because they got confident and did not went hunting your butt with Proto scanners?
You just got lucky.. ;)
Whatever you say wont change the fact tanks are too cheap,and tank spam is a problem.
I think I'm smart because I lured their attention elsewhere USING MY STUPID TEAMMATES before making my move.
It's not luck when it's repeatable and in most matches where the enemy team has tanks and mine doesn't, I see my team taking advantage. Not every time, because there are smart tankers out there, just like there are smart infantry. But more often than not, when my team has no tanks and the enemy has 4+, I'll be seeing a victory screen at the end of the match.
Enemy team has 2 Madrugars, a Soma and a couple of Gunnlogis? I bring a Missile tank and kill 3 of them before dying.
Enemy team is spawn-camping with tanks surrounding our redline? I lure them one way then find a way past on the weaker side.
Enemy team has 4+ tanks patrolling a Domination map covering all ground approaches? I get a friendly Dropship pilot to fly over the objective and bail out in a Scout suit, then set an Uplink on an inaccessible rooftop near the objective.
You don't charge head-first at a tank any more.
I've said elsewhere, and will continue to say it, Militia HAVs are slightly too capable for their price. SLIGHTLY. Restricting vehicles heavily like this thread proposes is NOT a solution. Significant price increases are NOT a solution - it's already easy to double the cost of a full Proto suit when building a decent tank fit. Militia vehicles need a (SLIGHT) nerf, and they'll have performance in line with their price. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4251
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Posted - 2013.12.20 02:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Before even considering keeping this argument up:
Question:
DID YOU WIN THAT GAME?
Yes.
It was a really, REALLY close finish. We were down to 3 clones on my team's side, and our MCC was in critical damage when theirs finally died. As mentioned, when I joined, my team was redlined, and we were pretty far down on clone count, but the enemy only had a small lead on MCC damage and it was early enough to still turn things around (our MCC was a around 1/4 shield strength) |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4274
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Posted - 2013.12.22 10:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Tanks are pretty much immune to all but three infantry weapons, by percentage wise infantry should be immune to the same percentage of tank weapons.
If your talking about equipment that the same as your active modules, im talking about recalling and redeploying a vehicle.
Who cares fair is fair right, ill just put av weaponry on the additonal people.
OK. Tanks are immune to most infantry weapons. So only the anti-infantry turrets should be particularly effective against infantry. Blasters remain unchanged, because they're already intended as anti-infantry, and they do the job well (even though ARs out-DPS them). Missile turrets are impractical as anti-infantry, but with some luck, you can catch someone in the splash and get an assist - kind of similar to how Flux Grenades can help with a kill but not complete it themselves, or how Plasma Cannons require at least as much blind luck as skill to hit a fast-moving tank, or how Prox Mines don't really hit hard enough to be truly viable AV weapons in their own right (all of which are the excess weapons you ignored on your claim of only 3 AV weapons). Railguns already can't land direct hits on moving infantry without a ridiculous amount of luck, so they need splash hits in order to hurt, particularly at range, and when you get in close, infantry movement is faster than the turn speed of Rail turrets, so they don't need a nerf either. MAYBE a slight reduction in splash radius or damage. MAYBE.
So the same thing as infantry going to a supply depot and swapping suits for instant health regen, except that unlike vehicles, you can't get shot while you're waiting for your suit to respawn, then have it hacked and stolen by the enemy before the automated lock lets your teammates (or even your squadmates) hop in. Maybe you should only be able to recall a vehicle in a designated safe zone - most people fall back behind friendly lines anyway. Maybe you could have to recall your tank from behind the redline, or within X metres of a supply depot or a friendly objective.
And having lots of AV guys is fair. Sometimes a team heavy in infantry with Rifles gets steamrolled by tanks. Sometimes a team with lots of tanks should run into a bunch of AV guys working together and get themselves slaughtered - unfortunately, that doesn't happen too often, because most AV players fail to communicate and work together effectively when fighting against multiple tanks. |
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