|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Crimson Cerberes
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
102
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 09:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Justicar Karnellia wrote:
This has effectively transformed an INFANTRY based game into a VEHICLE based game,
This was never an infantry-only or vehicle-only game. That kind of mindset poisoned the whole playerbase, and led to the near lifetime of nerfs that tanks suffered. Also, how is it unfair to force you to take out AV? That's a childish thing to say.
So since tanks are immune to ground based infantry, the same infantry they are meant to slaughter...
Can I get an anti-tank option that is immune to tanks but can be killed by infantry? Wouldn't that be fair? You know, rock paper scissors? |
Crimson Cerberes
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
102
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 09:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
Medic 1879 wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Even surprising a tank with none of its modules available and no retreat, they can still survive me bearing down upon them with a militia fit. It's ridiculous.
I just played a domination in which a madrugar rolled around the field with impunity. Its armour lasted long enough to retreat from anything thrown at it. The only time it was destroyed was when two Sicas were used to physically pin it in place, and even then it often just mounted them and carried on regardless. Wait maybe I am reading this wrong but are you complaining you couldn't solo a tank in a milita fit?
I know, especially when a militia tank can solo proto suits that cost more than it ALL DAY LONG. |
Crimson Cerberes
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 09:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Bhor Derri wrote:I don't want to add more fuel to the flames right now but the changes have improved dust much more than any other point release to date, if I were to explain this with new eden logic (which I must because some of you are still unfamilliar with it) would look like this:
Let's take scout suits as frigs, lightest suits in the game that would make assaults,logis cruisers and heavies battlecruisers.
With the current skillset and modules vehicles in Dust resemble capitals in eve than anything else; different skills that affect differnt modules , separate command and core skills and vice versa, but the HAVs in dust seem to be like battleships now more than ever, the closed beta vets will remember the surya and the sagaris , they were supposed to have siege mods, but it was more like the bastion mod in the 'marauders' in EVE(!).
So you are saying than it is hard for you to take out a battleship/dread with inferior gear and tactics and claim that it is wrong somehow; this is in no way a personal attack but if you think you can take out a target several leagues above you without thought nor tactics you are gravely mistaken.
To, perhaps make it easier to deal with tanks, get a tank of your own. It will make life much better for you, unless you have not a notion of how different vehicles are to dropsuits and their different pros and cons don't incite discussions absent purpose.
If you have a proper reason to why you are right please let me know.
That is a horrible analogy.
Battleships are not immune to frigates, cruisers, or battlecruisers Battleships are not faster than frigates, cruisers, or battlecruisers
Battleships have an incredibly difficult time hitting frigates and fast cruisers Battleships are incredibly slow moving and turning A battleship is a sitting duck to 2 of anything (unless specifically fit for those two, and even then its a toss up)
In eve 2 assault frigates can easily destroy, a battleship. In eve 1 EAS can take 2 battleships out of the battle.
I could keep going and going...
|
Crimson Cerberes
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 09:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Chesyre Armundsen wrote:crazy space 1 wrote:more fun to drive BROKEN! There is no balance with vehicles at all anymore. I say anymore because with the previous changes to SL you could at least make a tank run for cover with a pair (2) of AVers. Now its an impossibility! Likewise with DS having to be hovering over an installation for you to be able to reach them with a strike. CHRIST! I'll take a single fire PlsmCannon that will target 250m if it'll lock, and hit a tank/DS for 3000. Give me a 5 sec reload to keep it "balanced" if you have to. In the real world a $3,000 rocket launcher can kill a $1,000,000 jet or armor. If there's an economy at work sell us hardware that'll kill what we're aiming at! Upset your crutch doesn't work as well anymore? Maybe you should squad with a competent tanker.
Maybe 1 person in a tank should be countered by 1 person in an anti-tank role.
1 tank can take out a squad of infantry easily, with little to no fear for its own safety because that is it's role.
Lets keep that logic shall we....
1 AVer should be able to take out a squad of tanks, with little or no fear for its own safety because that is it's role.
Make AV'ers immune to tanks!
|
Crimson Cerberes
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 09:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Crimson Cerberes wrote:Medic 1879 wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Even surprising a tank with none of its modules available and no retreat, they can still survive me bearing down upon them with a militia fit. It's ridiculous.
I just played a domination in which a madrugar rolled around the field with impunity. Its armour lasted long enough to retreat from anything thrown at it. The only time it was destroyed was when two Sicas were used to physically pin it in place, and even then it often just mounted them and carried on regardless. Wait maybe I am reading this wrong but are you complaining you couldn't solo a tank in a milita fit? I know, especially when a militia tank can solo proto suits that cost more than it ALL DAY LONG. Let's see... you're complaining that MLT costs less than PRO?
Man you are thick.
ISK is not a balancing force for gear. CCP knows this all to well from the supercapital debacle in eve. |
Crimson Cerberes
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 09:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
IraqiFriendshipExplosive wrote:I just came out of a match where I killed about 3 tanks by myself. A 4th tank was taken out easily with the help of someone else.
Heavy suit , 2 complex heavy damage mods and a militia forge gun. 3 shots and those tanks die easily.
I guess I could have been very lucky with the module timings but I was hidden away popping up where they least expected me.
Pics or it didn't happen |
Crimson Cerberes
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 09:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Crimson Cerberes wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Chesyre Armundsen wrote:crazy space 1 wrote:more fun to drive BROKEN! There is no balance with vehicles at all anymore. I say anymore because with the previous changes to SL you could at least make a tank run for cover with a pair (2) of AVers. Now its an impossibility! Likewise with DS having to be hovering over an installation for you to be able to reach them with a strike. CHRIST! I'll take a single fire PlsmCannon that will target 250m if it'll lock, and hit a tank/DS for 3000. Give me a 5 sec reload to keep it "balanced" if you have to. In the real world a $3,000 rocket launcher can kill a $1,000,000 jet or armor. If there's an economy at work sell us hardware that'll kill what we're aiming at! Upset your crutch doesn't work as well anymore? Maybe you should squad with a competent tanker. Maybe 1 person in a tank should be countered by 1 person in an anti-tank role. 1 tank can take out a squad of infantry easily, with little to no fear for its own safety because that is it's role. Lets keep that logic shall we.... 1 AVer should be able to take out a squad of tanks, with little or no fear for its own safety because that is it's role. Make AV'ers immune to tanks! Or, like I said, you could squad with a tanker. Are you really suggesting that AV have the HP of a CRU?
Obviously not.
Tanks are immune to small arms.
Make AV immune to large arms.
Get this, tanks should not be the counter to tanks. This is the very basis for balanced gameplay. 1 role CANNOT be above the rest.
1 person should be strong against one thing and weak against another. Infantry are strong against AV, but weak against tanks. Tanks are strong against..... well everything. That is not balance. |
Crimson Cerberes
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 09:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
Medic 1879 wrote:Crimson Cerberes wrote:Medic 1879 wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:Even surprising a tank with none of its modules available and no retreat, they can still survive me bearing down upon them with a militia fit. It's ridiculous.
I just played a domination in which a madrugar rolled around the field with impunity. Its armour lasted long enough to retreat from anything thrown at it. The only time it was destroyed was when two Sicas were used to physically pin it in place, and even then it often just mounted them and carried on regardless. Wait maybe I am reading this wrong but are you complaining you couldn't solo a tank in a milita fit? I know, especially when a militia tank can solo proto suits that cost more than it ALL DAY LONG. Do you know what I do when a MLT tank tries to kill me all the time either 1. Get killed by it, respawn away from it and notify all AV and tankers to its location allowing them to kill or run it off or 2. Survive get in cover and notify all AV and tankers to its location allowing them to kill or run it off. Hell yesterday I solo'd a Madrugar in a 59k swarm fit, do you want to know how? I watched it for a few seconds and as soon as the hardeners went down I started blapping it, TACTICs FTW! I bet the tanker was annoyed that he got solo'd by a much cheaper fit so its a 2 way street.
Oh you mean the 1000 km/hr tank was still within firing distance when cooldown happened? LOL
|
Crimson Cerberes
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 09:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
With all of these horribly cheap suits solo'ing tanks, you would wonder what all the hub-bub is about.
Why don't you tankers stop posting with your alts about you solo'ing tanks? Enough with the astroturfing. Either prove it or get out.
TLDR; "I just killed 74 tanks with my starter gear" <---- tanker's alt. |
Crimson Cerberes
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 10:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Jack McReady wrote:Bhor Derri wrote:I don't want to add more fuel to the flames right now but the changes have improved dust much more than any other point release to date, if I were to explain this with new eden logic (which I must because some of you are still unfamilliar with it) would look like this:
Let's take scout suits as frigs, lightest suits in the game that would make assaults,logis cruisers and heavies battlecruisers.
With the current skillset and modules vehicles in Dust resemble capitals in eve than anything else; different skills that affect differnt modules , separate command and core skills and vice versa, but the HAVs in dust seem to be like battleships now more than ever, the closed beta vets will remember the surya and the sagaris , they were supposed to have siege mods, but it was more like the bastion mod in the 'marauders' in EVE(!).
So you are saying than it is hard for you to take out a battleship/dread with inferior gear and tactics and claim that it is wrong somehow; this is in no way a personal attack but if you think you can take out a target several leagues above you without thought nor tactics you are gravely mistaken.
To, perhaps make it easier to deal with tanks, get a tank of your own. It will make life much better for you, unless you have not a notion of how different vehicles are to dropsuits and their different pros and cons don't incite discussions absent purpose.
If you have a proper reason to why you are right please let me know. you are clearly missing the point. also your points are null and void because: 1. you are comparing a f2p lobby shooter to a player driven MMO 2. even a frigate can solo a battleship in eve 3. Battleships are not immune to frigates, cruisers, or battlecruisers 4. Battleships are not faster than frigates, cruisers, or battlecruisers 5. Battleships have an incredibly difficult time hitting frigates and fast cruisers 6. Battleships are incredibly slow moving and turning 7. as already mentioned, as long as a tank requires only 1 pilot a single suit with AV should be able to hold it off (note hold off not kill) otherwise dust will turn into world of tanks sooner or later when the best counter to tanks is a tank. the player bringing AV already is a small disadvantage to the team, beside vehicles he cannot deal with anything else effectively beyond 15m range and inside this sidearms optimal he still does less DPS than dedicated rifles. the tank driver gives up nothing, he basically wears a second suit with more EHP, immunity to the majority of weapons, more speed, damage, range and can deal with everyone. I dont know if you were playing after the patch, but it is already happening, one team brings 3+ tanks, other teams dedicated AV players try to counter with AV with low outcome cause the tanks are too tough and can evade everything with their new speed. the risk vs. reward for the guy with AV is out of proportion. as a consequence people bring their own tanks to counter tanks or try to suicide bomb them with remote explosives. if you do not understand this BASIC balance problem then you simply have zero credibility. Limiting the game to "bring out a tank to counter a tank" is a surefire way to kill this game. I am also sure history will repeat and CCP will realize the changes was too much and nerf tanks here and there. I will just watch and again collect all the tank driver tears when this happens. What's wrong with a tank being its own best counter?
Whats wrong with infantry being their own best counter?
Whats wrong with AV being their own best counter?
Whats wrong with the assault rifle being it's own best counter?
You can spot the pattern right? Variation in gameplay suffers when one role is the defacto best. Being it's own counter (i.e. nothing else will beat it) limits gameplay and makes for a boring game.
|
|
Crimson Cerberes
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 10:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Crimson Cerberes wrote:
Obviously not.
Tanks are immune to small arms.
Make AV immune to large arms.
Get this, tanks should not be the counter to tanks. This is the very basis for balanced gameplay. 1 role CANNOT be above the rest.
1 person should be strong against one thing and weak against another. Infantry are strong against AV, but weak against tanks. Tanks are strong against..... well everything. That is not balance.
Get this, this isn't Call of Duty: Space Edition. If you want no vehicles, go play Call of Duty. Guess what.................. the AR is above all other small arms in all categories, except for range, in which only the sniper rifle has it beat. What???
So.... ARs can be destroyed from range by the laser, scrambler, combat rifle, sniper rifle, rail rifle, and forge gun. Of course the AR does impede on the CQC weapons too much for my liking.
I want vehicles very much, but I want them to be scissors: strong against paper, but weak against rock. You want this to be tanks 514.
If you want tanks > all, go play world of tanks. |
Crimson Cerberes
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 10:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
Chesyre Armundsen wrote:How about an AV fit that costs the same ISK and SP as a comparable HAV and CAN kill it?
Anyone?
I would be perfectly fine with an AV fit that was immune to tank fire, and could quite easily solo 6-7 tanks at once, that cost alot, that would also get absolutely owned by infantry. Thats because I am all about balance, something most tankers couldn't give a crap about. |
Crimson Cerberes
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
104
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 10:11:00 -
[13] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote: Can vehicles hack objectives?
I can play this too
Can infantry travel at 1000km/h ? Can infantry be immune to tank rounds while out in the open? Can infantry solo squads of tanks? Can infantry swap suits to save isk ANYWHERE ON THE BATTLEFIELD?
I love your signature, it is hilarious because thats exactly what you want for tanks.
Tanks require no teamwork to destroy squads, but squads require teamwork and positioning to destroy a single tank. |
Crimson Cerberes
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
106
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 10:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Jack McReady wrote:everyone and their mother already pointed out what is wrong with it in this thread. thanks for admitting that you dont even bother to properly read what others wrote, your can say goodbye to your credibility forever Because what other people post is insane. Nuclear baseballs? Mining equipment more powerful than a gun that has a range measured in miles? Homing AV that still has rendering issues? I know who's biased, and it's not us.
Seriously?
Ok so what do you think: Are tanks op now? Should tanks not require teamwork to use, but require tons of teamwork to counter? Should tanks have a counter (please for the love of god don't say tanks are the counter to tanks)?
Your answers to these questions would prove how biased or not you are.
|
Crimson Cerberes
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
107
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 10:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Crimson Cerberes wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Jack McReady wrote:everyone and their mother already pointed out what is wrong with it in this thread. thanks for admitting that you dont even bother to properly read what others wrote, your can say goodbye to your credibility forever Because what other people post is insane. Nuclear baseballs? Mining equipment more powerful than a gun that has a range measured in miles? Homing AV that still has rendering issues? I know who's biased, and it's not us. Seriously? Ok so what do you think: Are tanks op now? Should tanks not require teamwork to use, but require tons of teamwork to counter? Should tanks have a counter (please for the love of god don't say tanks are the counter to tanks)? Your answers to these questions would prove how biased or not you are. None of you ever provide a reason as to why tanks shouldn't be their own best counter. What should CCP balance this game on? Ambush? Or Faction Warfare and Planetary Conquest? Should they balance this on the thought that each team will have tanks, or that one team will have 5 and the other none, plus no AV, and make them weak accordingly?
Yes we have:
If one choice is clearly superior, it stiffles gameplay. Why choose anything else when one option is superior. You know all of the bitching about the ARs? Same stuff here, why use anything else?
You just refuse to acknowledge it. It breaks the rock/paper/scissors mold that games require for varied gameplay styles.
Let me phrase it another way. If something is it's own best counter... it doesn't have a counter.
|
Crimson Cerberes
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
108
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 10:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Bhor Derri wrote:Oh please stop with all that Rock Paper Scissors bullshi* , the only purpose it serves is dumbing the game down, whenever QQers like you DEMAND a nerf the cult classic phrase comes in; "it should be like rock paper scissors."
No it should not be like that at all however I'm no fan of FOTM but it should be much more complex than that , that's what dust offered that's what separates dust from other lobby shooters though dust shouldn't even be called a lobby shooter.
You do realize that rock/paper/scissors is an analogy meaning that everything should have a counter right? That is actually the exact opposite of dumbing something down. Complex games require that there is no "best" style, otherwise you have a game for mouthbreathers.
It doesn't mean boil down the gameplay to 3 things. |
Crimson Cerberes
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
108
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 10:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote: You're not a tanker so you wouldn't understand.
Thats the biggest line of crap you could have possibly laid down. Obviously a troll. Translation: "Your right and I am wrong but I am not going to admit it." |
|
|
|