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Oswald Rehnquist
795
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Posted - 2013.12.07 09:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
Samantha Hunyz wrote:Shotty GoBang wrote:The last time we Scouts debated the idea ... which we debated at length ... the majority were opposed unless we could toggle it off/on (ON for PC, otherwise OFF). Quite a few of us rely on sneak attacks, which tend to involve sneaking up directly behind a target. Timing is everything, and you don't want your target getting jumpy.
Teammates (even squaddies) tend to move in the direction of the nearest red and fire without second thought. Bad news for us Assassin types who may be stalking or closing gap when the "help" arrives.
If MedFrames must have this of us, then let them have it. But don't call it a "Scout Buff" ... this is not what we've waited for. Permit us to toggle it off and on; it'll likely do us more harm than good.
I expected better from you Shotty. I liked this idea before the black eagle event. I like it even more now. I would run in a squad with a logi throwing up an active scan, my team would engage. During the firefight, I could easily slip behind the reds and go down the-áline with my Shotty getting multiple easy kills in a row. This is exactly how it will help you if we scouts share info with our squad. We would scan the enemy on approach of their rear. Our squad engages from the front holding their attention. As for an on/off button, simply don't squad up. If you must play as an individual and do not wish to contribute, do so like every everyone else does and go solo. Being selfish and trying to be a solo assassin but in squad makes little sense to me. Trying to prevent scouts from being able to contribute in a way that makes sense is selfish. This is not a medium suit buff, it is a teamwork buff.
You can call it want you want but this would limit several play styles and random squading, if I want to broadcast a location I use verbal communication which is sufficient for those who are close enough to understand it and provides it when I want it (or I use an active scanner, which is one of the cheapest equipment items out there). But having a red revealed, teammates automatically and non tactfully start assaulting it, which may alert the general hoard of enemies nearby stirring up the hornets nest when I am next to it and I am the one that gets stung vs being able to take out the peripherals before anybody is notified and verbally have teammates approach.
Also most scouts are not with the pack per say, but are off with A) other scouts or B) another person, which none of these scenarios needs the feature you suggest.
Also I may just be having fun joining random squads and may not want to communicate that kind of information which may in fact hurt me.
I'd rather have the passive scanner have strengths that differ from the active scanner, not a mirror which then literally makes the active scanner a "scout in a pocket"
You so can throw me in that group of naysayers.
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Oswald Rehnquist
797
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Posted - 2013.12.07 18:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Minmatar scouts say, "what good does this do me?"
This would just be another buff to gallente, who are the recon based scouts. Minmatar which are assassins and combat support have zero use for this.
As cool as this seems on paper it only benefits one suit type by turning them into a piece of equipment rather than giving them a combat role.
I don't believe the OP meant this as a scout fix, but more of an idea, but yeah as far as scout utility the gal scout would be the only one really to provide any great utility with the suggested feature. Also non combat areas are a great way to expand scouts, but it should be passive aggressive support via ewar. Our current flanking abilities plus debuffing would be a great way to take the scout as the anti logi.
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Oswald Rehnquist
798
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Posted - 2013.12.07 19:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Minmatar scouts say, "what good does this do me?"
This would just be another buff to gallente, who are the recon based scouts. Minmatar which are assassins and combat support have zero use for this.
As cool as this seems on paper it only benefits one suit type by turning them into a piece of equipment rather than giving them a combat role. I don't believe the OP meant this as a scout fix, but more of an idea, but yeah as far as scout utility the gal scout would be the only one really to provide any great utility with the suggested feature. Also non combat areas are a great way to expand scouts, but it should be passive aggressive support via ewar. Our current flanking abilities plus debuffing would be a great way to take the scout as the anti logi. Noncombat areas. I whole heartedly disagree with tailoring this class to spend more time out of action and hiding than we already do. This sort of thing is a job for equipment not a person. How if implemented this would be used tactically:: 1. Send in scout ahead of assaults and logis. 2. Make scout hide to ensure he doesn't die so you have vision throughout engagement. 3. That's it. Yeah that's it. Nope. Don't think so. Myself and many people didn't waste months of their lives to be eventually used by their team like a piece of equipment because that is what would happen. It's nice on paper but it is not what the class needs. Tacnet is OP as it is. Scanners are OP as it is. We DO NOT need another mechanic to make stealth and flanking even more difficult. We do not need another bonus in areas that will make a scout not at all fun to play. While many might see this as an "added bonus" for scouts it isn't. It's condemning them to a life of hiding in corners and on roofs.
I'm talking about abilities that disable hostile mini maps (so they can't tell friend or foe), that causes weapons to malfunction, that drain users stamina, etc.
These are passive aggressive debuffs which scouts can use to help a team out (especially if its aoe) or use to help himself for better set up (slowing down suits then knifing them).
Again I favor the active module idea for these abilities, but debuffing is certainly a passive aggressive trait which would fit well with the different variant of scouts who can either more ewar vs assassin oriented.
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Oswald Rehnquist
805
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Posted - 2013.12.08 05:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
At least going back to the OP, this could work if we didn't have active scanners, I think the scout shared vision plus the active scanner for anybody with an equipment slot would equate to a little too much omniscience. One or the other gets the job done and active scanners already do it a little too well already
Didn't mean to throw the idea without elaborating, because I have considered it before myself, but scout vision or active scanner vision is the question, having both is a little overdone in my opinion and would take away all flanking for everybody except a few scouts.
Also active scanners can get the range and precision that a scout never could, so they generally would outperform hypothetical scouts in this aspect, meaning a scout would be outperformed again.
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Oswald Rehnquist
810
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Posted - 2013.12.09 03:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
Samantha Hunyz wrote:Seriously guys, you are a speedy little scouts, with a second rate scan ability compared to the active scanner. Do you really believe that your squad is going to see the one or two red dots on your radar and drop everything to go get those out of the way, middle of nowhere red dot or two? Let's say that they do., would those red dots even be there by the time they started moving? Those times that your radar is actually full of reds, that is when and where your squad should be. And guess what, I highly doubt you are alive by the time your squad even gets there unless your a part of the 1% elite, because you are wearing a scout little hp suit.
IMHO, it seems as though most of you scouts will not be happy until you can be one man armies. You believe you are entitled to have a suit that can slay every others with 1HKs, and take on the whole enemy by yourself. I will no longer continue to help this is or any other scout issues. Even though the scout does deserve to be fixed, your greediness has made me decide to distance myself from the majority. I will continue to be a asset to my team, and live with what little ccp decides to give us.
Actually you are the one that is unreasonable
Between the comments, there were these mentioned
1) Scouts often move alone or in very small packs where communication is sufficient, thus utility would be limited (one of my comments)
2) The difference would not be noticeable considering how small scout radius's are and how much weaker it is to the active scanner stat wise, thus instead of making it compete directly with the active scanner keep its separate niche like it does now. (one of my comments)
3) Even if it was made effective that plus the active scanner would be way to much info, we would practically be back to everyone having vision again. (my second post)
4) Could be implemented into an active module (I agreed with this could work too)
5) If scouts are getting a one time look at, focus on things that would actually benefit scouts
6) Only the gallente scout would be able to use this really due to its radius bonus, and the min scout would not
All of them are valid concerns, and it is what they are concerns, which if an idea is not able to hold up to scrutiny then it may be a bad idea or the person arguing the pros is a little sensitive and not open for direct rebuttal.
You could of talked how you wanted to change the active scanner to make the idea fit in better because as I have mentioned MWO has this ability and makes it useful, but you did not and instead pretty much just dismissed everybody without addressing the concerns.
Essentially I don't see how you were planning on turning anybody over with the verbal tactics you were using.
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Oswald Rehnquist
814
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Posted - 2013.12.09 08:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
Samantha Hunyz wrote:
I did not include changes to current active scanners due to forum rules. Plus there already well thought out conversations discussing changes to them.
To me this is the biggest thing because a flexible logi can throw on an active scanner and just blow scouts out of this feature, it won't be used over the active scanner at all. Its also the cheapest equipment out there.
While not everyone would agree I actually think it would be fun to have a build or scout variant that worked as senors for the team while fighting but there is no room for it with active scanners in its current iteration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfM-7IZ4hGs#t=4m40s
The unit here is required to scout out targets but would not be useful it the other frames could compensate by throwing on electronics themselves. So again I think active scanners need to be dialed in as part of the discussion otherwise I disagree with the change due to a vast shadow it would be living under.
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