DUST Search - The shield nerf is a step towards eliminating brick tanking

All Channels

General Discussions

The shield nerf is a step towards eliminating brick tanking

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Cosgar ParagonX 8305	Posted - 2013.12.04 20:06:00 - [1] - Quote Move damage mods to low slots and armor/shield will be balanced then. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 8306	Posted - 2013.12.04 20:11:00 - [2] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Because Minmatar assaults and scouts are doing a lot of brick tanking. I instantly thought of you when I saw the shield nerf. Didn't you just now get your scout Mk.0? I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 8311	Posted - 2013.12.04 20:44:00 - [3] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Because Minmatar assaults and scouts are doing a lot of brick tanking. I instantly thought of you when I saw the shield nerf. Didn't you just now get your scout Mk.0? Dual specced Minnie Assault mk.0 and Scout mk.0. Loving that choice. ::puts head down. drags feet.:: Logi isn't that much better since you almost need to dual tank. **** it! Back to BF4. Tired of waiting for this game to get good. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 8315	Posted - 2013.12.04 20:53:00 - [4] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Move damage mods to low slots and armor/shield will be balanced then. How exactly will it be balanced? Why should armor get the highest HP ceiling and access to damage mods too? The only reason armor suits use damage mods is because there isn't any thing else worth putting in those high slots. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 8315	Posted - 2013.12.04 20:59:00 - [5] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Because Minmatar assaults and scouts are doing a lot of brick tanking. I instantly thought of you when I saw the shield nerf. Didn't you just now get your scout Mk.0? Dual specced Minnie Assault mk.0 and Scout mk.0. Loving that choice. ::puts head down. drags feet.:: Logi isn't that much better since you almost need to dual tank. **** it! Back to BF4. Tired of waiting for this game to get good. Not trying to flame, but wasn't BF4 full of bugs, glitches, and a poor micro-transaction system that sold power? Jim Sterling even made a full two videos on its 'paywall'. And Logi does not need to dual tank. Play it as the support role it is intended to be and you will be surprised how much less HP you need out of it. How about we stop telling each other how to fit our suits? This is why we have the problems we have now. And this is coming from a logi that uses proto equipment, despite any incentive to do so. Also? Who had a better release? BF4 or Uprising. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 8315	Posted - 2013.12.04 21:02:00 - [6] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Move damage mods to low slots and armor/shield will be balanced then. How exactly will it be balanced? Why should armor get the highest HP ceiling and access to damage mods too? The only reason armor suits use damage mods is because there isn't any thing else worth putting in those high slots. CEILING. No armor tanker worth a damn runs with more than 600 armor HP. My armor tanker suit without logistics support: 500 armor. My armor tanker suit WITH logistics support: 600 armor. If I completely forget about armor reps, don't have any equipment, and use an advanced weapon, I can get 800 HP. Sounds like a first world problem. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 8315	Posted - 2013.12.04 21:07:00 - [7] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: How about we stop telling each other how to fit our suits? This is why we have the problems we have now. And this is coming from a logi that uses proto equipment, despite any incentive to do so. Also? Who had a better release? BF4 or Uprising. "How about we stop telling each other how to fit our suits?" A shield tanker named Cosgar keeps saying that armor suits run with stacked plates. A armor tanker named Cat Merc keeps saying that it isn't viable without logi support, which means team work, which should be more powerful. Personally, I'm glad neither one of us are devs for this **** game. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 8318	Posted - 2013.12.04 21:40:00 - [8] - Quote Sephirian Fair wrote: OMG. I am a ***** idiot. Holy ... I just reread the patch notes again... Added shield extender penalty - stacking slows down the depleted** shield recharge delay. ..........Okay, I take back everything I have said thus far. There isn't going to be any change to the hit and run playstyle that I typically do. The depleted recharge delay isn't even half as important as the normal delay. You are completely correct Cat Marc, this hurts Brick Tankers worse than pure Shield tankers. A pure Shield tanker never lets his shield hit 0, therefore the depleted delay is typically irrelevant Crisis adverted. Don't worry, just an oversight. They'll make sure it applies to recharge delay too with a hot fix. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 8319	Posted - 2013.12.04 22:02:00 - [9] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Hey, Cat Merc is back. What up? And yeah I agree this is ultimately a good think as right now all Dust 514 consists of is brick tanking. Penalizing only makes other combinations more viable. Plus it is only for the depleted shield delay, not normal shield delay. If you are going to stack extra shield, try not to get depleted. As a shield tanker I spend more time depleted, in armor and hiding than with full shields in combat. If I'm seen I'm dead. This is the case with both my assault and my scout. Saying "try not to get depleted" is easy enough but shields go down way too fast. 2 bullets per complex extender on top of a base 10 second deplete delay on my assault. Sorry but I'm dead in a second even with my highs filled with extenders. My scout suit has 80 armor and less than 300 shields. All of these changes are minor debuffs to other other suits but Minmatar suits will feel this the absolute worse and we can't even dual tank well. Especially since a complex extender barely survives 2 AR bullets. Both tanking types need to be looked into. A lot of changes came in before hit detection was fixed and Ina game balanced around bad hit detection, it's time to update. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 8319	Posted - 2013.12.04 22:09:00 - [10] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Hey, Cat Merc is back. What up? And yeah I agree this is ultimately a good think as right now all Dust 514 consists of is brick tanking. Penalizing only makes other combinations more viable. Plus it is only for the depleted shield delay, not normal shield delay. If you are going to stack extra shield, try not to get depleted. As a shield tanker I spend more time depleted, in armor and hiding than with full shields in combat. If I'm seen I'm dead. This is the case with both my assault and my scout. Saying "try not to get depleted" is easy enough but shields go down way too fast. 2 bullets per complex extender on top of a base 10 second deplete delay on my assault. Sorry but I'm dead in a second even with my highs filled with extenders. My scout suit has 80 armor and less than 300 shields. All of these changes are minor debuffs to other other suits but Minmatar suits will feel this the absolute worse and we can't even dual tank well. Especially since a complex extender barely survives 2 AR bullets. Both tanking types need to be looked into. A lot of changes came in before hit detection was fixed and Ina game balanced around bad hit detection, it's time to update. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1563772#post1563772 Try that with a Mk.0 and get back to me. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"

Cosgar ParagonX 8319	Posted - 2013.12.04 22:18:00 - [11] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Cosgar wrote: Especially since a complex extender barely survives 2 AR bullets. Both tanking types need to be looked into. A lot of changes came in before hit detection was fixed and Ina game balanced around bad hit detection, it's time to update. Completely agree and I am all in favor of buffing HP values for suits and modules in recognition of the improved hit detection. That only band-aids the issue. We need to rethink damage profiles and the falloff system. Just thinking about the falloff, I would say give plasma/EM a hard cap, but the ability to deal consistent damage until the cap while rail/kinetics keep the current system with a more drastic falloff than we have now. Not sure how to adjust damage profiles, but for starters we need to fix armor tanking's lack of incentive to equip anything in their high slots other than damage mods, reinforce burst and passive tanking for shields and kick/dispersion for weapons. Everything right now is pretty broken. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 8320	Posted - 2013.12.04 22:22:00 - [12] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: If it will be a problem in 1.7 it was a problem before 1.7. Will you finally agree that shields were only better than armor because armor made them look better? I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 8324	Posted - 2013.12.04 23:14:00 - [13] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: If it will be a problem in 1.7 it was a problem before 1.7. Will you finally agree that shields were only better than armor because armor made them look better? Well... That kinda contradicts itself. When someone says shields are better, he means better than armor. When someone says armor is better, he means better than shields. Tanking in general needs a rework, infact I say rebuild infantry from scratch like they have with vehicles. Strip down everything and bring it back to the core, suits, weapons, modules, etc'. You're thinking of Chromosome when skills affect your character over their fitting. There was a disparity between shields and armor but they tried to balance it based on SP by giving shields higher modifiers. You had to have sufficient levels in recharging and (I think) extenders before you could even think about increasing your max shields. Armor was only a 1x modifier that you could max in a day when you made a new character. But armor didn't have the crazy prerequisites that shields had. When Uprising came out, both skills had the same modifier and prerequisites. I admit plates underperformed, but recharge/regulation underperformed as well. Suits don't have a low enough recharge delay/depletion to work well with the hit and run tactics everyone thinks they have. They're self sustainable with shorter downtimes than self armor repair at best, but not snout to ever make a Caldari assault/logi or Minmatar assault use rechargers/energizers over simply stacking extenders and plates. This advantage you say shields have isn't there, it never was plainly because plates weren't good enough at the time. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 8324	Posted - 2013.12.04 23:26:00 - [14] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: If it will be a problem in 1.7 it was a problem before 1.7. Will you finally agree that shields were only better than armor because armor made them look better? Well... That kinda contradicts itself. When someone says shields are better, he means better than armor. When someone says armor is better, he means better than shields. Tanking in general needs a rework, infact I say rebuild infantry from scratch like they have with vehicles. Strip down everything and bring it back to the core, suits, weapons, modules, etc'. You're thinking of Chromosome when skills affect your character over their fitting. There was a disparity between shields and armor but they tried to balance it based on SP by giving shields higher modifiers. You had to have sufficient levels in recharging and (I think) extenders before you could even think about increasing your max shields. Armor was only a 1x modifier that you could max in a day when you made a new character. But armor didn't have the crazy prerequisites that shields had. When Uprising came out, both skills had the same modifier and prerequisites. I admit plates underperformed, but recharge/regulation underperformed as well. Suits don't have a low enough recharge delay/depletion to work well with the hit and run tactics everyone thinks they have. They're self sustainable with shorter downtimes than self armor repair at best, but not snout to ever make a Caldari assault/logi or Minmatar assault use rechargers/energizers over simply stacking extenders and plates. This advantage you say shields have isn't there, it never was plainly because plates weren't good enough at the time. 2.8 seconds while maintaining very similar eHP to the Gallente suit isn't enough? ScRs,ARs, and flux grenades don't blamp armor. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 8326	Posted - 2013.12.04 23:58:00 - [15] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: ScRs,ARs, and flux grenades don't blamp armor. RR, CR and Core Locus. Two of which aren't even out yet and grenades are stupid OP with little discrimination. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 8327	Posted - 2013.12.05 00:11:00 - [16] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: ScRs,ARs, and flux grenades don't blamp armor. RR, CR and Core Locus. Two of which aren't even out yet and grenades are stupid OP with little discrimination. Nobody uses Fluxes, grenades are stupid OP as you said. And so what if they aren't out yet? When is the nerf coming out? When the anit armor weapons hit. Going to be hard to tell a difference when everyone just armor tanks. At least my core breach MD will have a field day. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 8327	Posted - 2013.12.05 00:25:00 - [17] - Quote Cenex Langly wrote: Cosgar wrote: Move damage mods to low slots and armor/shield will be balanced then. They are on the low slots in EVE. But I agree. Either do a crazy tank or crazy damage. Not both. Having those mods on low slots will make shields/armor balanced for sure. Exactly! This is why we need some modules shifted and active EWAR debuff/buff modules in high slots. Like I said earlier armor tankers use damage mods because there's nothing else to put there. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 8329	Posted - 2013.12.05 00:42:00 - [18] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cenex Langly wrote: Cosgar wrote: Move damage mods to low slots and armor/shield will be balanced then. They are on the low slots in EVE. But I agree. Either do a crazy tank or crazy damage. Not both. Having those mods on low slots will make shields/armor balanced for sure. Exactly! This is why we need some modules shifted and active EWAR debuff/buff modules in high slots. Like I said earlier armor tankers use damage mods because there's nothing else to put there. There's a catch Cosgar. Armor tankers don't actually stack plates like shield users stack extenders. Unless behind logi support, it simply isn't viable, your suit will get decimated after your first engagement. And shields don't have the HP ceiling or recharge/regulator module rates for hit and run tactics. Like I said, both suck right now, even after the armor buff. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 8329	Posted - 2013.12.05 01:07:00 - [19] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: Sounds like armor versus shields is fine, it's the logis that need tweaking... Always goes back to logis... It's core mechanics, stop straw manning the issue. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"