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Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1835	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:29:00 - [1] - Quote The two new added weapons are anti-armor rifles. Until now, both kinds of rifles being fielded have been inherently armor biased. Armor HP is going to feel thinner when it goes up against both new versions. The opposite is true. The combat rifle and rail rifle will have a harder time killing shield players than armor players. That is all. Carry on with QQ...
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 8324	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:30:00 - [2] - Quote Plus all modules should have a stacking penalty, and we also don't know how much of a delay it's going to add per module Win ISK / Vids / O7
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 128	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:35:00 - [3] - Quote These two guys have it right. And to top it all off, there is a low slot shield module that reduces recharge delay so you can counter this nerf anyways. Show me where the armor tanking guys get to have a high slot item that helps their armor out?
Zero Notion Wraith Company 368	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:36:00 - [4] - Quote Your first mistake is assuming anyone even uses shields. Damage mods all the way.
General John Ripper Pradox One Proficiency V. 5647	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:37:00 - [5] - Quote why not hybrid? Yes, It was me.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 189	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:38:00 - [6] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: These two guys have it right. And to top it all off, there is a low slot shield module that reduces recharge delay so you can counter this nerf anyways. Show me where the armor tanking guys get to have a high slot item that helps their armor out? Triage nanohives in their equipment slot. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
Cosgar ParagonX 8300	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:38:00 - [7] - Quote TTK is so short, it doesn't matter what kind of gun someone is using unless it's a lolMD or LMFAOPlasm Cannon. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Knight Soiaire BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 3472	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:38:00 - [8] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: These two guys have it right. And to top it all off, there is a low slot shield module that reduces recharge delay so you can counter this nerf anyways. Show me where the armor tanking guys get to have a high slot item that helps their armor out? Goes to Minmatar Scout suit fitting "I'll just replace this Profile Damp with a Shield Reg- Oh wait, I need that for Preventing scans!" "I'll just replace this Kinetic Cat- Oh nope, still need that, since Speed tank will be my only tank!" (Same applies to Minmatar Assault) Forum Prison Escapee Yes, 1.7 is going to suck. T_T
Zero Notion Wraith Company 368	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:39:00 - [9] - Quote Knight Soiaire wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: These two guys have it right. And to top it all off, there is a low slot shield module that reduces recharge delay so you can counter this nerf anyways. Show me where the armor tanking guys get to have a high slot item that helps their armor out? Goes to Minmatar Scout suit fitting "I'll just replace this Profile Damp with a Shield Reg- Oh wait, I need that for Preventing scans!" "I'll just replace this Kinetic Cat- Oh nope, still need that, since Speed tank will be my only tank!" (Same applies to Minmatar Assault) Let me introduce you to the medium suit. Edit: Speed tanking isn't the way to go on an Assault. Not with the current battlefield tactics and mechanics. It's more viable in city maps but they seem to come up rarely and we're playing on sprawling maps. You're going to be useful for getting to point to point but you're just going to die a lot.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 5769	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:39:00 - [10] - Quote Cosgar wrote: TTK is so short, it doesn't matter what kind of gun someone is using unless it's a lolMD or LMFAOPlasm Cannon. The plasma cannon certainly belongs there, but the MD is still pretty effective... Level 5 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Supporter of CCP raRaRa.

Roy Ventus Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance 623	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:40:00 - [11] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: The two new added weapons are anti-armor rifles. Until now, both kinds of rifles being fielded have been inherently armor biased. Armor HP is going to feel thinner when it goes up against both new versions. The opposite is true. The combat rifle and rail rifle will have a harder time killing shield players than armor players. That is all. Carry on with QQ... Also don't forget both the Rail Rifle and Combat Rifle are meant more non-CQC battles but probably work somewhat effective in CQC. With my AR, I can't reach you well from a distance but with Rail Rifle and Combat Rifle, you can hit me hard from a distance and add that with the fact that you don't have to charge(although a slight delay for Rail Rifles) like the normal Scrambler Rifle. "There once was a time when there wasn't a Roy Ventus and it wasn't much of a time at all." Roy Ventus
Marlin Kirby KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 122	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:40:00 - [12] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: These two guys have it right. And to top it all off, there is a low slot shield module that reduces recharge delay so you can counter this nerf anyways. Show me where the armor tanking guys get to have a high slot item that helps their armor out? Triage nanohives in their equipment slot. ...and damage mods. The not logic bomb!
ALT2 acc The dyst0pian Corporation Zero-Day 1	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:41:00 - [13] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: These two guys have it right. And to top it all off, there is a low slot shield module that reduces recharge delay so you can counter this nerf anyways. Show me where the armor tanking guys get to have a high slot item that helps their armor out? with regulaters, 3.6 shield recharge delay, already bullshit, with 1.7, 5 seconds, so its either 400 weak shields with 5 second recharge delay, or 250 LOLWTF shields with the already unbarable 3.6 second recharge delay. time to go calogi assault or galogi
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4314	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:41:00 - [14] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Cosgar wrote: TTK is so short, it doesn't matter what kind of gun someone is using unless it's a lolMD or LMFAOPlasm Cannon. The plasma cannon certainly belongs there, but the MD is still pretty effective... He is mad that his AREA DENIAL weapon can't go toe to toe with direct damage weapons anymore Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
calisk galern BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 1423	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:42:00 - [15] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: These two guys have it right. And to top it all off, there is a low slot shield module that reduces recharge delay so you can counter this nerf anyways. Show me where the armor tanking guys get to have a high slot item that helps their armor out? damage mods, my enemies have 30% less time to fire at me thus my armor lasts longer. triage hives in the equipment slots boosting my effective hp by the 100's as long as i can fight inside them. no flux grenades instantly removing my tank.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 130	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:42:00 - [16] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: These two guys have it right. And to top it all off, there is a low slot shield module that reduces recharge delay so you can counter this nerf anyways. Show me where the armor tanking guys get to have a high slot item that helps their armor out? Triage nanohives in their equipment slot. Still not in the highslot and a heavy can't carry them. =P
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 2169	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:44:00 - [17] - Quote This is mainly a reduction to the effectiveness of hybrid tankers. It's actually a smart move by CCP. There were probably only a couple of paths they could've taken to weaken brick tankers and this is one of them that doesn't actually ruin everything else. And I know light frame shield tankers may appear to be shafted in this, but personally I play hit and run anyway, and the run part usually involves running to the other side of the map so I get ample time for shield regeneration. And usually when I'm caught, I die too fast for shield recharge delay to matter. Furthermore, as a logibro I'm rejoicing. Your shields take longer to recharge, you say? Why, that means you are taking damage for my repair tool to repair! "When nothing is going your way, go out of your way to do nothing."
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 130	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:45:00 - [18] - Quote Knight Soiaire wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: These two guys have it right. And to top it all off, there is a low slot shield module that reduces recharge delay so you can counter this nerf anyways. Show me where the armor tanking guys get to have a high slot item that helps their armor out? Goes to Minmatar Scout suit fitting "I'll just replace this Profile Damp with a Shield Reg- Oh wait, I need that for Preventing scans!" "I'll just replace this Kinetic Cat- Oh nope, still need that, since Speed tank will be my only tank!" (Same applies to Minmatar Assault) OMG! Heaven forbid that someone actually has to make choices and cannot be the bestest solo player at every damn aspect of a game that is supposed to encourage teamwork.
Your Absolut End SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 277	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:45:00 - [19] - Quote Knight Soiaire wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: These two guys have it right. And to top it all off, there is a low slot shield module that reduces recharge delay so you can counter this nerf anyways. Show me where the armor tanking guys get to have a high slot item that helps their armor out? Goes to Minmatar Scout suit fitting "I'll just replace this Profile Damp with a Shield Reg- Oh wait, I need that for Preventing scans!" "I'll just replace this Kinetic Cat- Oh nope, still need that, since Speed tank will be my only tank!" (Same applies to Minmatar Assault) I dont even try to tank my scout, for which reason? dying 0.1 sec later? another one bites the Dust...
Knight Soiaire BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 3477	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:46:00 - [20] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Knight Soiaire wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: These two guys have it right. And to top it all off, there is a low slot shield module that reduces recharge delay so you can counter this nerf anyways. Show me where the armor tanking guys get to have a high slot item that helps their armor out? Goes to Minmatar Scout suit fitting "I'll just replace this Profile Damp with a Shield Reg- Oh wait, I need that for Preventing scans!" "I'll just replace this Kinetic Cat- Oh nope, still need that, since Speed tank will be my only tank!" (Same applies to Minmatar Assault) OMG! Heaven forbid that someone actually has to make choices and cannot be the bestest solo player at every damn aspect of a game that is supposed to encourage teamwork. how 2 Scout teamwork? Do you even know what you're talking about? Forum Prison Escapee Yes, 1.7 is going to suck. T_T

Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 1894	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:48:00 - [21] - Quote Other suits might not feel this but Minmatar suits are greatly affected by how crappy shield tanking is currently. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 2142	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:51:00 - [22] - Quote Weapons just deal damage now. The TTK is so low it doesn't matter. You can wipe out a heavy with 1100 armor in a few trigger pulls of a SCR. You can wipe out a Caldari shield tanker with a MD and no flux. You are honestly a ******* idiot if you think shields and armor and even in the same galaxy of balance right now. Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
THEAMAZING POTHEAD Nyain San Renegade Alliance 612	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:55:00 - [23] - Quote by that logic shields are better against mass drivers. reality? THEY AREN'T. The low maximum pool of shields lets a powerful MD rip through the max medium suit shields of 580 and max heavy suit shields of 700 in 4 shots, whereas the max armor tanks take 4 shots for mediums to about 8 depending on the amount of tank they decide on., 700-900 armor for mediums and the 500-700shields & 500-1300armor heavys can take as much as 12 shots. So ya even against a MASS DRIVER ARMOR SUITS ARE BETTER. The shield pool is just too damn small, its UP and even less useful against the weapons it resists because of that. Add in the low TTK, and the fact that it makes regen MUCH LESS important(borderline useless during engagements), and you get to where we are now.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 131	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:55:00 - [24] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Other suits might not feel this but Minmatar suits are greatly affected by how crappy shield tanking is currently. Then be as versatile and flexible as a true Minmatar pilot would be. Learn to use both shield and armor tanking and know when to use which. Adapt and overcome.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1838	Posted - 2013.12.04 19:57:00 - [25] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Weapons just deal damage now. The TTK is so low it doesn't matter. You can wipe out a heavy with 1100 armor in a few trigger pulls of a SCR. You can wipe out a Caldari shield tanker with a MD and no flux. You are honestly a ******* idiot if you think shields and armor and even in the same galaxy of balance right now. Not sure you are being clear here Thor... You want weapons to do something other than damage? SCR needs to charge or get headshots for 'a few trigger pulls' to get a really low TTK, and then you have to include the charge time, which when you do makes the TTK and skill relationship not completely objectionable. And could you share how you get some kind of rediculously low TTK with an MD against a non-idiot-fitting caldari setup without headshotting them (or using their formerly broken mechanic to quickfire?)
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1838	Posted - 2013.12.04 20:01:00 - [26] - Quote THEAMAZING POTHEAD wrote: by that logic shields are better against mass drivers. reality? THEY AREN'T. The low maximum pool of shields lets a powerful MD rip through the max medium suit shields of 580 and max heavy suit shields of 700 in 4 shots, whereas the max armor tanks take 4 shots for mediums to about 8 depending on the amount of tank they decide on., 700-900 armor for mediums and the 500-700shields & 500-1300armor heavys can take as much as 12 shots. So ya even against a MASS DRIVER ARMOR SUITS ARE BETTER. The shield pool is just too damn small, its UP and even less useful against the weapons it resists because of that. Add in the low TTK, and the fact that it makes regen MUCH LESS important(borderline useless during engagements), and you get to where we are now. This will be the other thing... Your two main shield tankers until now haven't had the best tools for their suits. Caldari will now have the higher buffer with a longer range weapon (ofc you can use whatever weapon you want) But you'll be able to easily pin down MD users at a range that only pros could capitalize on. And you'd have to be pretty stupid to die to an MD consistantly at 70m. Minmatar should not be incredibly easy to kill with a mass driver because of their speed. I believe a minmatar squad/assault shouldn't lock down an area and defend it. THey don't have the buffer. Rather, they secure THEN exploit a more tactical area, diving in and out of the most advantageous positions with the most versitile weapons in the game.
Shutter Fly Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 124	Posted - 2013.12.04 20:09:00 - [27] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Other suits might not feel this but Minmatar suits are greatly affected by how crappy shield tanking is currently. Then be as versatile and flexible as a true Minmatar pilot would be. Learn to use both shield and armor tanking and know when to use which. Adapt and overcome. You can say adapt all you want, but if the options are there then you're just blowing hot air. I already dual tank my Min Assault, but now I can't even do that. One of my low slots now has to be a Regulator, leaving me with only one low slot open to anything. Since my shields CAN'T be my only source of tank, then that second low slot isn't open, it has to be armor. Yep, SO VERSITILE, LOOK AT ALL OF MY OPTIONS!!
Cosgar ParagonX 8308	Posted - 2013.12.04 20:33:00 - [28] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Cosgar wrote: TTK is so short, it doesn't matter what kind of gun someone is using unless it's a lolMD or LMFAOPlasm Cannon. The plasma cannon certainly belongs there, but the MD is still pretty effective... He is mad that his AREA DENIAL weapon can't go toe to toe with direct damage weapons anymore It takes 1/4 of my gun's entire ammo to kill one person. This is with 2 million SP invested. I can do better with an Exile and 0 SP just by rapidly tapping R1 with aim assist on. Seen any treads about MDs lately? That means people aren't getting killed by them. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Tectonic Fusion 648	Posted - 2013.12.04 20:49:00 - [29] - Quote Your Absolut End wrote: Knight Soiaire wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: These two guys have it right. And to top it all off, there is a low slot shield module that reduces recharge delay so you can counter this nerf anyways. Show me where the armor tanking guys get to have a high slot item that helps their armor out? Goes to Minmatar Scout suit fitting "I'll just replace this Profile Damp with a Shield Reg- Oh wait, I need that for Preventing scans!" "I'll just replace this Kinetic Cat- Oh nope, still need that, since Speed tank will be my only tank!" (Same applies to Minmatar Assault) I dont even try to tank my scout, for which reason? dying 0.1 sec later? Theres a bigg difference between my 190 EHP scout and my 483 EHP scout... I can take a shotgun to the face, and headshot the other scout (if he's a lolHeavy or an assaukt I'm screwed). Solo Player Squad status: Locked
howard sanchez Sanchez Cartage llc 818	Posted - 2013.12.04 21:14:00 - [30] - Quote To add one other thought, the common Assault suit bonus of increased shield recharge/level has now gained a bit of value due to the shiel extender nerf ( no more combat logi brick fits )

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5572	Posted - 2013.12.04 21:16:00 - [31] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: These two guys have it right. And to top it all off, there is a low slot shield module that reduces recharge delay so you can counter this nerf anyways. Show me where the armor tanking guys get to have a high slot item that helps their armor out? Triage nanohives in their equipment slot. High Slot. He said high slot. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 787	Posted - 2013.12.04 21:16:00 - [32] - Quote howard sanchez wrote: To add one other thought, the common Assault suit bonus of increased shield recharge/level has now gained a bit of value due to the shiel extender nerf ( no more combat logi brick fits ) He He Bad joke is bad. KDR > ALL ME > KDR ME > ALL
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 148	Posted - 2013.12.05 14:34:00 - [33] - Quote Shutter Fly wrote: You can say adapt all you want, but if the options aren't there then you're just blowing hot air. I already dual tank my Min Assault, but now I can't even do that. One of my low slots now has to be a Regulator, leaving me with only one low slot open to anything. Since my shields CAN'T be my only source of tank, then that second low slot isn't open, it has to be armor. Yep, SO VERSITILE, LOOK AT ALL OF MY OPTIONS!! First choice, what suit to use... If your current one doesn't have what you need, then it may not be appropriate for what you are trying to do. Second choice how to use it, don't try to use a suit to do things that it doesn't do well. Third choice, how to fit it... etc... However I do agree that CCP has limited your options a lot by not releasing ALL of the race's versions of Heavy dropsuits. I would imagine that the Minmatar version of a Heavy suit is probably what would satisfy you in this situation...
Saoa Scum Judge Mercenaries 38	Posted - 2013.12.05 14:56:00 - [34] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: The two new added weapons are anti-armor rifles. Until now, both kinds of rifles being fielded have been inherently armor biased. Armor HP is going to feel thinner when it goes up against both new versions. The opposite is true. The combat rifle and rail rifle will have a harder time killing shield players than armor players. That is all. Carry on with QQ... Take into account that we need to get thru a shield before we even start to hit the armor.. maybe not much but still we get a dmg reduction on that
Operative 1171 Aajli Bragian Order Amarr Empire 782	Posted - 2013.12.05 15:44:00 - [35] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: The two new added weapons are anti-armor rifles. Until now, both kinds of rifles being fielded have been inherently armor biased. Armor HP is going to feel thinner when it goes up against both new versions. The opposite is true. The combat rifle and rail rifle will have a harder time killing shield players than armor players. That is all. Carry on with QQ... Also, this seems like CCP forcing ppl to use the racial weapons with the same race suit. Caldari fight from long range with the rail. Do your part. Join the revolution. Sabotage FW. Watch DUST burn! DESTROY DUST 2014
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1850	Posted - 2013.12.05 15:48:00 - [36] - Quote Operative 1171 Aajli wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: The two new added weapons are anti-armor rifles. Until now, both kinds of rifles being fielded have been inherently armor biased. Armor HP is going to feel thinner when it goes up against both new versions. The opposite is true. The combat rifle and rail rifle will have a harder time killing shield players than armor players. That is all. Carry on with QQ... Also, this seems like CCP forcing ppl to use the racial weapons with the same race suit. Caldari fight from long range with the rail. This kind of predictability would be helpful IMO. You would have more of an idea of what fights you should be good in and where you'd have to rely much more heavily on superior skill. I really think that some setups should nearly always lose to Geks while many should be somewhat even. IF you know where the enemy squad is and that they are using RR, you should realize that regardless of how fast you are, you probably shouldn't be in the open.
Zekain K Expert Intervention Caldari State 721	Posted - 2013.12.05 15:54:00 - [37] - Quote Who cares, the scrambler rifle Burns through everything. *CALDARI MASTER RACE*
trollface dot jpg The Bacon Corporation 115	Posted - 2013.12.05 19:39:00 - [38] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: The two new added weapons are anti-armor rifles. Until now, both kinds of rifles being fielded have been inherently armor biased. Armor HP is going to feel thinner when it goes up against both new versions. The opposite is true. The combat rifle and rail rifle will have a harder time killing shield players than armor players. That is all. Carry on with QQ... This is the only semi legit response to the issue I have seen since the patch notes released. However, this changes nothing when probably 80%+ of the high SP playerbase will continue to use their prof. 5 AR's & ScR's until they at least break prof 3 with a new rifle. My other Alt is your mom.
Vicious Minotaur Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 397	Posted - 2013.12.05 19:58:00 - [39] - Quote True enough. Too bad I rip through enemy shields with my armour biased SMG. Too bad I tear through enemy armour with my shield biased Scrambler Rifle. And later, I will rip through enemy shields with my Combat Rifle, and I imagine that I could do the same with the Rail Rifle (and I will, on a different character). And guess what? My 500+ armour hipster Gallente logi character gets murdered by scrambler rifles. My 400+ shield Caldari alt gets murdered by SMGs. All because shield/armour damage bias means nearly nothing with TTK being how it is.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1852	Posted - 2013.12.05 19:59:00 - [40] - Quote trollface dot jpg wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: The two new added weapons are anti-armor rifles. Until now, both kinds of rifles being fielded have been inherently armor biased. Armor HP is going to feel thinner when it goes up against both new versions. The opposite is true. The combat rifle and rail rifle will have a harder time killing shield players than armor players. That is all. Carry on with QQ... This is the only semi legit response to the issue I have seen since the patch notes released. However, this changes nothing when probably 80%+ of the high SP playerbase will continue to use their prof. 5 AR's & ScR's until they at least break prof 3 with a new rifle. Just mathing this for practical sake... Lets say theoretically all PRO rifles have a base average DPS of 500. That means given their damage profiles to shield/armor: Plasma: 550/450 Projectile: 475/550 Laser: 600/400 Hybrid: 450/550 Here they are 22% to 37% better against armor. Now when you are saying that all of these plasma/laser users have prof. V giving them +15% damage...we'll factor that in... Plasma (prof.V): 633/518 Projectile: 475/550 Laser (prof.V): 690/460 Hybrid: 450/550 So even with Laser and Plasma rifle prov. V, the new PRO weapons (assuming they have = base DPS which might be way off) will already be 8-20% more effective than plasma/laser rifle damage against armor. I've done the math, and the anti-armor weapons start to be superior when your target has > about 15% more armor HP than shield. IOW if your armor HP is more than 54% of your total HP (which most armor/hybrid tankers are), these anti armor weapons will consistantly kill you faster than the anti shield.



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