DUST Search - Consequences of No Player Market and No ISK payout in FW

Jadd Hatchen wrote:

Thor Odinson42 wrote:

I posted this in the Dev Blog thread but think it needs to be mentioned here...

The lack of an ISK payout in FW in combination with no player market will lead to either an AFK nightmare in pubs or FW. I'm guessing in pubs at first, but it'll depend on how much LP is given per match vs the cost of goods in the LP store. THIS is so painfully obvious that my 7 year old daughter would predict it given the scenario.

In Eve players have the ability to do other things to earn ISK to support their PvP habit. OR they are in corps that are involved in other ISK generating ventures and help their pilots with ship replacement programs.

The lack of foresight on this issue boggles my mind. And I know for a FACT that the CPM brought it up to CCP.

CCP wants to have an ISK sink but I argue that most players with large amounts of ISK fall into this category:

1) The top 1% of Dust that's been successful in PC
2) Players that AFK
3) Players that run BPOs nonstop

You can't accumulate large amounts of ISK running a 2.0 KDR with ADV gear in pubs. In fact the mechanics now reward those that choose to do less to increase their profit margins.

If you can't profit more going 10-5 with 1500 WP in a pub match than a dude who goes 0-0 with 0 WP then the system is broken.

I have raised this issue before about broken ISK payouts and incentives, but I firmly believe that the new FW will only exacerbate the issue.

I agree that this can be a problem. I disagree with awarding BOTH ISK and LP. Instead the solution should be adding the market where people in FW can sell the items that they get from FW to people that don't do FW. Then if a rifle costs 1000 LP to get and 1 LP = 1000 ISK, that rifle sells for 1,000,000 ISK on the open market. Bingo, FW guy gets his ISK and supplies demand to the non-FW players.

Unfortunately, CCP is implementing changes piecemeal and not understanding how this causes unintended side-effects.

Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.

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Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 2108	Posted - 2013.12.03 18:35:00 - [1] - Quote I posted this in the Dev Blog thread but think it needs to be mentioned here... The lack of an ISK payout in FW in combination with no player market will lead to either an AFK nightmare in pubs or FW. I'm guessing in pubs at first, but it'll depend on how much LP is given per match vs the cost of goods in the LP store. THIS is so painfully obvious that my 7 year old daughter would predict it given the scenario. In Eve players have the ability to do other things to earn ISK to support their PvP habit. OR they are in corps that are involved in other ISK generating ventures and help their pilots with ship replacement programs. The lack of foresight on this issue boggles my mind. And I know for a FACT that the CPM brought it up to CCP. CCP wants to have an ISK sink but I argue that most players with large amounts of ISK fall into this category: 1) The top 1% of Dust that's been successful in PC 2) Players that AFK 3) Players that run BPOs nonstop You can't accumulate large amounts of ISK running a 2.0 KDR with ADV gear in pubs. In fact the mechanics now reward those that choose to do less to increase their profit margins. If you can't profit more going 10-5 with 1500 WP in a pub match than a dude who goes 0-0 with 0 WP then the system is broken. I have raised this issue before about broken ISK payouts and incentives, but I firmly believe that the new FW will only exacerbate the issue. Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 1832	Posted - 2013.12.03 18:39:00 - [2] - Quote In EVE with FW missions you get ISK and LP
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 948	Posted - 2013.12.03 18:45:00 - [3] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: In EVE with FW missions you get ISK and LP that's not exactly right. lp has an isk value in eve. 1lp = 1000 isk. (if you're stupid enough to take the transfer, I mean)
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 1832	Posted - 2013.12.03 18:46:00 - [4] - Quote low genius wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: In EVE with FW missions you get ISK and LP that's not exactly right. lp has an isk value in eve. 1lp = 1000 isk. (if you're stupid enough to take the transfer, I mean) Last time i did FW i got like 2mil for lvl4 FW missions with 20k+ LP
calisk galern BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 1342	Posted - 2013.12.03 18:48:00 - [5] - Quote how do you afk in FW, they can spawn and kill you and if your not around they will suffer no consequences. aside from that if your team loses ( very likely with players afking) then you get far less LP, and to take that one step further you gain no isk from doing it either. it would be more profitable to just not be in FW when you afk.
BMSTUBBY 370	Posted - 2013.12.03 18:51:00 - [6] - Quote I see FW AFKing becoming a real problem. Oh and BPO's Everywhere! With TKing and no ISK payout, oh yeah you bet your a$$ that I will be running nothing but BPO's Dusters - MMO WhenGäó ? CCP - MMO SoonGäó .
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 2113	Posted - 2013.12.03 19:41:00 - [7] - Quote calisk galern wrote: how do you afk in FW, they can spawn and kill you and if your not around they will suffer no consequences. aside from that if your team loses ( very likely with players afking) then you get far less LP, and to take that one step further you gain no isk from doing it either. it would be more profitable to just not be in FW when you afk. Well I consider sitting in the redline hiding, not trying to win AFK. But as my post says, I think it will spill over into the pub matches more than FW. But it depends on the LP item cost versus LP earned in battle. Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
EternalRMG KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND 682	Posted - 2013.12.03 19:45:00 - [8] - Quote Dont Forget that you get kicked if you afk "Fight Togheter; Win Together" Duster Since: July 2012 Best DropShip Pilot; Soon To be best Jet Fighter Pilot
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 2113	Posted - 2013.12.03 19:46:00 - [9] - Quote EternalRMG wrote: Dont Forget that you get kicked if you afk Read the above post. If you are going 0-1 with 50 WPs you might as well be AFK Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 101	Posted - 2013.12.03 19:52:00 - [10] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: I posted this in the Dev Blog thread but think it needs to be mentioned here... The lack of an ISK payout in FW in combination with no player market will lead to either an AFK nightmare in pubs or FW. I'm guessing in pubs at first, but it'll depend on how much LP is given per match vs the cost of goods in the LP store. THIS is so painfully obvious that my 7 year old daughter would predict it given the scenario. In Eve players have the ability to do other things to earn ISK to support their PvP habit. OR they are in corps that are involved in other ISK generating ventures and help their pilots with ship replacement programs. The lack of foresight on this issue boggles my mind. And I know for a FACT that the CPM brought it up to CCP. CCP wants to have an ISK sink but I argue that most players with large amounts of ISK fall into this category: 1) The top 1% of Dust that's been successful in PC 2) Players that AFK 3) Players that run BPOs nonstop You can't accumulate large amounts of ISK running a 2.0 KDR with ADV gear in pubs. In fact the mechanics now reward those that choose to do less to increase their profit margins. If you can't profit more going 10-5 with 1500 WP in a pub match than a dude who goes 0-0 with 0 WP then the system is broken. I have raised this issue before about broken ISK payouts and incentives, but I firmly believe that the new FW will only exacerbate the issue. I agree that this can be a problem. I disagree with awarding BOTH ISK and LP. Instead the solution should be adding the market where people in FW can sell the items that they get from FW to people that don't do FW. Then if a rifle costs 1000 LP to get and 1 LP = 1000 ISK, that rifle sells for 1,000,000 ISK on the open market. Bingo, FW guy gets his ISK and supplies demand to the non-FW players. Unfortunately, CCP is implementing changes piecemeal and not understanding how this causes unintended side-effects.

Drapedup Drippedout 0uter.Heaven Proficiency V. 90	Posted - 2013.12.03 19:56:00 - [11] - Quote BMSTUBBY wrote: I see FW AFKing becoming a real problem. Oh and BPO's Everywhere! With TKing and no ISK payout, oh yeah you bet your a$$ that I will be running nothing but BPO's I agree with the latter, not the former. If you look at the LP gain from winning you would have to AFK WAAAAAAYYYY more in FW(Assuming the team with AFKers will lose more often). I'm sure there will be some dumberry out there stupid enough to try it though. Not to mention after I build up some LP I will personally assassinate any AFK'r just to make sure they lose whatever amount their suit is worth, making them lose isk in the process. I think the ISK problem that will arise is: with a significant demographic of this game in corps that don't or can't hold districts, they will be strictly limited to PUB matches to stay ISK positive. Meaning FW will probably consist of corps that can AFFORD it. With rewards being gear that costs less CPU/PG the rich will get richer, while the poor will be left with less options to ISK grind and slightly worse gear (compounding the proto-stomp problem). Possible counter-balances: Player market, increased payouts for wins, more game modes like a Free-for-all, snipers -only, or one-in-the-chamber, annnnddd direct reimbursement from killer to killed for TK would be a nice feature.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 2117	Posted - 2013.12.03 19:59:00 - [12] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: I posted this in the Dev Blog thread but think it needs to be mentioned here... The lack of an ISK payout in FW in combination with no player market will lead to either an AFK nightmare in pubs or FW. I'm guessing in pubs at first, but it'll depend on how much LP is given per match vs the cost of goods in the LP store. THIS is so painfully obvious that my 7 year old daughter would predict it given the scenario. In Eve players have the ability to do other things to earn ISK to support their PvP habit. OR they are in corps that are involved in other ISK generating ventures and help their pilots with ship replacement programs. The lack of foresight on this issue boggles my mind. And I know for a FACT that the CPM brought it up to CCP. CCP wants to have an ISK sink but I argue that most players with large amounts of ISK fall into this category: 1) The top 1% of Dust that's been successful in PC 2) Players that AFK 3) Players that run BPOs nonstop You can't accumulate large amounts of ISK running a 2.0 KDR with ADV gear in pubs. In fact the mechanics now reward those that choose to do less to increase their profit margins. If you can't profit more going 10-5 with 1500 WP in a pub match than a dude who goes 0-0 with 0 WP then the system is broken. I have raised this issue before about broken ISK payouts and incentives, but I firmly believe that the new FW will only exacerbate the issue. I agree that this can be a problem. I disagree with awarding BOTH ISK and LP. Instead the solution should be adding the market where people in FW can sell the items that they get from FW to people that don't do FW. Then if a rifle costs 1000 LP to get and 1 LP = 1000 ISK, that rifle sells for 1,000,000 ISK on the open market. Bingo, FW guy gets his ISK and supplies demand to the non-FW players. Unfortunately, CCP is implementing changes piecemeal and not understanding how this causes unintended side-effects. I've seen this arguement. If people are using FW as an ISK sink then where will they get the money to buy a 1,000,000 ISK rifle? I don't think the market is going to be as vibrant as people imagine. Where are people going to use this gear? Will they use a million ISK rifle in FW, in PC? It's doubtful Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 574	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:03:00 - [13] - Quote Nobody will be able to consistently AFK in FW. Winning is actually incentivized. Incentive to win + FF = Instakill of anyone who tries to AFK. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
Moorian Flav Ectype Inc. 99	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:03:00 - [14] - Quote Here's a tip: If you see a team player AFKing in FW... SHOOT THEM!!!
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 574	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:03:00 - [15] - Quote Nobody will be able to consistently AFK in FW. Winning is actually incentivized. Incentive to win + FF = Instakill of anyone who tries to AFK. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
Moorian Flav Ectype Inc. 99	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:03:00 - [16] - Quote Here's a tip: If you see a team player AFKing in FW... SHOOT THEM!!!
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 2117	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:06:00 - [17] - Quote I'm not sure if people are understanding the implications of team killing here with their suggestions. Are you going to go team kill the redline snipers? What's the real difference between AFK and a redline sniper? Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
Daxxis KANNAH Distinct Covert Initiative 484	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:06:00 - [18] - Quote The only one you missed OP is that even more stomping will happen in pubs as people make their ISK to feed going after LP - Not all of us have BPO's
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 2117	Posted - 2013.12.03 20:08:00 - [19] - Quote Daxxis KANNAH wrote: The only one you missed OP is that even more stomping will happen in pubs as people make their ISK to feed going after LP - Not all of us have BPO's People aren't stomping in pubs to make ISK. The people who are at the bottom of the list going 0-0 with 0 WPs are going after ISK. The people stomping are trying to actual participate in this FPS. Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.


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