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Reno Pechieu
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
33
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Posted - 2013.11.27 02:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
[Feedback]
At the moment many people are feeling something needs to be done about Public Matches, and IGÇÖm one of them.
Fresh players coming out of the Academy, being meet by teams with advanced or proto gear and some leaving in disgust.
So far, two people I introduced Dust to have explained that the major thing that ruined it for them was the feeling of utter uselessness, and these are experienced FPS players.
It didnGÇÖt matter to them that they could get similar gear over time, when most of the time they either spent being dead, respawning or waiting for the battle to be over so they could slowly creep towards some faraway distant goal.
ItGÇÖs hard to get new players into the Eve universe when one of the first thing they meet is a brick wall, and more hard to make them invest time enough to join the major stuff when there are other shooters that provide a more balanced way for new to play with the old.
[Request]
Make the Academy and Public Matches the same thing.
Everyone can join, both new and old.
But:
- Only militia gear can be used
- No bonuses from skill
- A low tier version of each weapon is provided (looking at you Nova knife)
Testing vehicles should also be possible, but to prevent people spamming them hereGÇÖs a suggestion:
Each match, players start with a sum of points, which is resets at the next match.
Vehicles are deducted from this sum when they are requested, but players can gain more points to spend by killing enemies and completing objectives.
This will make it possible for new players to try more what they might want to skill into later on, also; since gear and bonuses isnGÇÖt a factor, player skill is all that matters.
In most cases, this lets fresh players better decide if Dust is something they want to spend more time with.
And to get players into FW and PC (which is the whole reason for this), players are reminded from time to time that bigger SP and ISK sums can be gained in these modes. This will lure fresh ones to try, and they likely get crushed the first times if the rush in, but they have something to fall back on while they wait until they get the gear needed for this.
(+ combined with this to wet their appetite)
Also, this might be handy for established players, as they can use the academy to scout for new recruits with potential. To the degree I feel that this is something that should be taken into consideration making it possible for corps to announce that their watching fights.
Furthermore; blueprints needs to be removed from FW and PC fights
As this causes people to lazy-mode in these fights with no concern, and possible make it people donGÇÖt bother with the new Academy.
Making players have to buy a supply of suits to be in these fight would likely make fresh players join them with more consideration and make veterans join the Academy for some R&R and to earn some ISK and points in less brutal situations.
The two secrets to be a good sadist:
1) Don't tell them everything you planned.
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Reno Pechieu
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
33
|
Posted - 2013.11.27 02:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Reserved
The two secrets to be a good sadist:
1) Don't tell them everything you planned.
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Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
237
|
Posted - 2013.11.27 02:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
No.
I've explained many times on these forums that gear is not what causes pubstomping.
If pub matches are to be balanced, it needs to be done by balancing the SP of both teams.
Who cares what some sniper has to say
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Reno Pechieu
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
36
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Posted - 2013.11.27 13:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:No.
I've explained many times on these forums that gear is not what causes pubstomping.
I find it hard to believe that the increases in damage per shot, accuracy, range, hit-points, scanner boost and more does not grant those with higher tier a huge advantage.
Also; I tested back to back how much difference having no points invested in a certain weapon versus having it maxed out, the difference is clear.
This, plus the fact that someone call in proto-tier vehicles, which is next to impossible for fresh players to take out, makes me say that veterans have a disproportional advantage over new players in public games.
Talos Vagheitan wrote:If pub matches are to be balanced, it needs to be done by balancing the SP of both teams.
As many have mentioned, that system would punish people who arenGÇÖt specialised or didnGÇÖt spend their points right. This will very likely lead to cookie-cutter builds, while people who like to play different roles depending on situation and mood will get the shaft.
Other forms of rating also donGÇÖt work well in Dust, a K/D ratio would punish people who specialise in things that donGÇÖt earn kills; lookout-scouts, support-logi and Dropship-pilots.
My suggestion would create a levelled playing field that will get new players the time to become interested in the rest Dust 514 has to offer, at a pace most are comfortable with.
The two secrets to be a good sadist:
1) Don't tell them everything you planned.
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Pr0phetzReck0ning
Edimmu Warfighters
Gallente Federation
78
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Posted - 2013.11.27 14:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:No.
I've explained many times on these forums that gear is not what causes pubstomping.
If pub matches are to be balanced, it needs to be done by balancing the SP of both teams.
Completely false, and as the individual above me noted, someone who has 20 mill + SP and have all these damage, armor, shield, etc. enhancing skills CLEARLY have an advantage ontop of rolling around in full Planetary Conquest type Proto fits. You think that a new player is going to want to get dropped like a dime by a vet?
Think of this scenario:
Noob has Militia gear, Vet has full Proto
Noob miraculously sneaks up behind an unsuspecting Vet and starts spraying him/her with fire and grenades
But wait! barely any damage is being done...OH NO!!
Vet turns around and drops the noob like unneeded spare change.... vet smirks and mocks the noob
Noob walks away pissed and frustrated because he should've been able to take the Vet out since he completely took him off guard
THAT my friend is what having all that SP is about. Now you take a 6 man squad of players that all have over 15 million SP and you take Pub stomping to a whole 'nother level of insanity |
Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
244
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Posted - 2013.11.27 16:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
Reno Pechieu wrote:[quote=Talos Vagheitan]
I'm only going to try and explain this once.
look at this game: http://postimg.org/image/5uox4u9av/http://postimg.org/image/gt06n0xw7/
Do you honestly believe that balancing player gear would have made this a fair, balanced game? The defining difference between these teams is different levels of SP, which in turn grants higher level equipment to the team. If matchmaking were to somewhat balance the average SP of the teams, then atleast one of those proto squads would have been swapped to the other team in exchange for blueberries, balancing the game.
Does this make sense to you now? I don't know how to make this any more clear.
Who cares what some sniper has to say
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Reno Pechieu
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
38
|
Posted - 2013.11.27 16:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:Reno Pechieu wrote:[quote=Talos Vagheitan] I'm only going to try and explain this once. look at this game: http://postimg.org/image/5uox4u9av/http://postimg.org/image/gt06n0xw7/Do you honestly believe that balancing player gear would have made this a fair, balanced game? The defining difference between these teams is different levels of SP, which in turn grants higher level equipment to the team. If matchmaking were to somewhat balance the average SP of the teams, then atleast one of those proto squads would have been swapped to the other team in exchange for blueberries, balancing the game. Does this make sense to you now? I don't know how to make this any more clear.
But player skill isnGÇÖt necessary a problem, there are many FPS that bundle both new and old players together in the same match. From my experience this encourages players to develop their own skills to be able to compete with the veterans.
Playing games like Team Fortress 2 and Black Ops 2 (games with decided easier K/D system to figure out the skill of the player), I meet players and teams of both types, some better than me, others worse.
Again, player skill isnGÇÖt a problem.
ItGÇÖs when player skill + gear + passive bonuses versus someone who lacks the two latter it becomes an issue.
What youGÇÖre suggestion doesnGÇÖt prevent people making smurfs anyway, but with mine suggestion thatGÇÖs no longer an issue, as they just as likely meet both newbies and vets.
The two secrets to be a good sadist:
1) Don't tell them everything you planned.
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CELESTA AUNGM
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
44
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Posted - 2013.11.27 16:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
Greetings!
I won't quote you here because you're both posting ideas with potential for good and risk of backfire...
I got on Dust a few weeks before the May release, and Newberrys had to go through a WP threshold of roughly 10,500 WP before we were exposed to seasoned players/maps. It wasn't publicized as being "the academy" very much, and you weren't explained the mechanics of it or what deeper aspects of the game it was shielding you from. You only knew from word of mouth that after 10,500 WP your boredom would be over and you'd be allowed to go against tougher honchos.
NOT knowing the vital parts of Dust (the SP grind, Skill tree management, the build-for-defense-first-then-build-for-proto-gear-after, etc), Newberrys like myself just sucked it up, fought the frustration (culling some of us out of playing any further--hooking some of us into refusing to be beat by this golf course), reached for proto guns, experimented with Aurum, tried DIFFERENT techniques of for traversing the map alive, tried "spontaneous team-up on the fly",... and we had a whole 10,000 + WP period in which to mature.
SOME of us (no, not all of us) believe that that LONGER threshold period, without advertising itself as "The Battle Academy" so much, is the better training room, and we should return to those roots. Today's Battle Academy has a drastically reduced, measly WP threshold, that may be too "reachable", and entices new players to scramble to reach that mark before they've really learned or focused in any of the areas I just mentioned in MY academy stage.
 I think the opinion is correct that the stomping problem is NOT from proto gear---the new player (especially one experienced with other FPS's a lot) JUMPS to the conclusion that he's being killed by the proto advantage (heck, that's what kills you in the "Bomb You Sucker 8" game), and she/he isn't aware yet that dashing into un-sussed situations or lone-warrior habits are what's killing him (way more than the FPS she's used to). Limiting weapon availability in the academy stage won't promise to help that.
There is also that hidden reality that "free" game means (Sony's) paid investment in hosting the game must be rewarded, with proto-gear that Newberrys are enticed to buy from the instant they enter the game. The players' assumptions about "the proto prize", and the marketplace aurum-offerings, are the chosen tool to generate Sony profits.
I think the suggestion of balancing SP for the benefit of teams in play should be avoided too. SP in Dust is a personal career choice, like Loyalty Points being introduced now--they are sort of a tool we may value and use to build our custom individual standing--so I'd hate to see them used as a match-up device or ranking tool in direct combat. (secretly I'd like to even do away with Leaderboard K/D numbers, but I realize new players need SOMETHING familiar from their classic FPS to relate to and reach for in the beginning)
TIME (extend the Newberry's period in the academy stage by raising the threshold back up), and some default chat channels/specialty squads that ONLY appear in the academy mode and can only be accessed by vets who volunteer (maybe by sacrificing some of their SP to show they are sincere about wanting to help Newberrys--not spit on them)...these are the ideas I think would have kept your two friends (some of mine too) from leaving.
Gives them TIME to learn how to out-maneuver proto/sniper/taxi maniacs.
Gives some donating vets a chance to help boost a 'combat-smart' Dust population count.
Lets exiting players leave for the RIGHT reasons (don't like the theme, no interest in grinding, etc) instead of leaving from feeling humiliated about dying so much.
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deepfried salad gilliam
Sanguine Knights
173
|
Posted - 2013.11.27 18:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
Lets keep the academy the way it is except
1 raise wp requirement
2 minimum time of 1 week
3 minimum sp requirement
4 if an account has ever beag the academy,any alts from that account skip the academy
Christ is lord
Sanguine knights , open recruitment, join now.
Free tacos
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nukel head
The Vanguardians
97
|
Posted - 2013.11.27 20:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:No.
I've explained many times on these forums that gear is not what causes pubstomping.
If pub matches are to be balanced, it needs to be done by balancing the SP of both teams.
Sounds like a protobear. I've explained just as many times that gear is not THE problem, but it definitely is A problem. Another is putting non-squad blueberry teams up against full squad organized teams. If proto gear doesn't give an advantage then why do some players get so defensive about restricting the use of it in certain areas? |
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Vell0cet
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
625
|
Posted - 2013.11.27 21:20:00 -
[11] - Quote
No.
We don't need players who are learning what buttons do what and are configuring their sensitivity settings in the same match with vets (even if they're limited to militia). They will be slaughtered and the game will suck horribly.
I posed a suggestion for improving the NPE a few weeks ago. First there is a better tutorial. Next is "simulation mode" this takes place in a "simulator" (it looks identical to the maps we play on now--maybe with a Tron-like skybox), awards no ISK or SP. It only lasts like 10 matches at the most. It is clearly explained that the simulation mode isn't real and only temporary. In simulation mode you have maxed skills and all weapons/vehicles/suits are free. Players will have a huge variety of suits/fits pre-made for them to play with (these could be based on actual fits being used now by top players) to experience all of the racial weapons/suits/vehicles available in DUST. Players will be encouraged and rewarded for trying out each fit.
After they have completed the simulation mode they are prompted to pick their race and finish making their character. Now they are released into the real game where they are instructed to spend their initial 500,000 SP based on the role they want to play. In the real game they have access to everything we do now, but they also have access to an additional "academy" game mode. This mode would be restricted to only players with less than 5 million SP. It gives them a "safe harbor" option (free from stomping) to play in, but still allows them to participate in the rest of the content if they want to.
The benefit of this system is that new players (and game reviewers) can experience the huge diversity of play styles right from the start and will get an appreciation for the depth of DUST. It will also let them preview all of the best stuff so they can make an informed decision about their race and the weapons/vehicles/suits they enjoyed the most.
Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
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Reno Pechieu
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 02:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
nukel head wrote:Talos Vagheitan wrote:No.
I've explained many times on these forums that gear is not what causes pubstomping.
If pub matches are to be balanced, it needs to be done by balancing the SP of both teams. Sounds like a protobear. I've explained just as many times that gear is not THE problem, but it definitely is A problem. Another is putting non-squad blueberry teams up against full squad organized teams. If proto gear doesn't give an advantage then why do some players get so defensive about restricting the use of it in certain areas?
I must say, you bring up a very good point.
The two secrets to be a good sadist:
1) Don't tell them everything you planned.
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taxi bastard
Minor Trueblood
24
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Posted - 2013.11.30 10:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:Reno Pechieu wrote:[quote=Talos Vagheitan] I'm only going to try and explain this once. look at this game: http://postimg.org/image/5uox4u9av/http://postimg.org/image/gt06n0xw7/Do you honestly believe that balancing player gear would have made this a fair, balanced game? The defining difference between these teams is different levels of SP, which in turn grants higher level equipment to the team. If matchmaking were to somewhat balance the average SP of the teams, then atleast one of those proto squads would have been swapped to the other team in exchange for blueberries, balancing the game. Does this make sense to you now? I don't know how to make this any more clear.
it makes sence but is still flawed.
PC player can afford proto - casual cannot
if new players are still in the battle with proto its still a shite day in the office. |
Reno Pechieu
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
44
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 02:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
taxi bastard wrote:it makes sence but is still flawed.
PC player can afford proto - casual cannot
if new players are still in the battle with proto its still a shite day in the office.
*Nods*
The idea is to give new players a level playing field, a scenario where everyone uses the same tier weapons and no passive bonuses.
The two secrets to be a good sadist:
1) Don't tell them everything you planned.
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