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From an ignorant perspective...what is happening here...?

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Midas Fool T.R.I.A.D 215	Posted - 2013.11.26 01:25:00 - [1] - Quote I want a clear understanding of this BPO debacle. I just started reading the forums again as I prepare to entrench myself in this game this winter and I am having trouble finding sense in any of these discussions. They all devolve into name-calling and spouting parts of the EULA at eachother. Don't get me wrong, I find it all entertaining, but clearly there are serious opinions at work here and I want this explained in a serious tone. Not just for me...I don't know who else is gonna fish through all the assorted and confusing threads. Is it possible to have a clear (but concise) perspective on either side of this? Trying to figure out what I think about this. I understand the premise of the situation, what I fail to understand is the gravity. Also xLuca the way you space your stuff out makes it extremely difficult to read. Please, ever so friendly community, if you choose to provide your summary allow others the room to speak...there is enough "discussion" and more than enough bickering and low blows. I want a red and blue on the issue. Please convince me to care. For best results press R1 repeatedly. Consult your doctor if your erection persists for more than four hours.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1071	Posted - 2013.11.26 01:30:00 - [2] - Quote People purchased AUR with Real World Money People used said AUR to buy BPO modules for vehicles. CCP decided to remove those modules entirely from the game. Because the modules are being removed, so are the BPOs. CCP is refunding everyone with those BPOs with their value in AUR. People either end up with the same amount of AUR that they started with, or in some cases more than they started with. Net loss is therefor zero, as everyone ended with the same amount of AUR that they started with. Everyone is freaking out because .....reasons. TL;DR I can't convince you to care, because you really shouldn't care. People are just acting like children. ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
VAHZZ Gallente Federation 342	Posted - 2013.11.26 01:32:00 - [3] - Quote It is possible and not possible, these forums will corrode you - you will stoop to their level, they will drag you down with experience and make you like them - they are called trolls, and they are ever so prevalent in this community. Believe me, there are few that use intellect to stroll these forums, and it is very possible to entertain healthy discussion, but like i said, this community is corroded. The merc with a mouth - beware of random bouts of insanity! - and trolling ~ Proud Sniper Scout
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 2002	Posted - 2013.11.26 01:33:00 - [4] - Quote BPOs were cheaply priced and there seemed to be a notice that prices were to increase. Some Eve minded entrepreneurs purchased many of them in anticipation of the reset and/or player market. I remember a post on the forums from a guy that would have had something like $15K worth of AUR if refunded or something crazy like that (prices went from like 40 AUR to 4500 if I recall correctly). That post was blued up and they quickly announced that BPOs would not be refunded. People were talking even more crazy then as they are now. Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
Midas Fool T.R.I.A.D 215	Posted - 2013.11.26 01:34:00 - [5] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: People purchased AUR with Real World Money People used said AUR to buy BPO modules for vehicles. CCP decided to remove those modules entirely from the game. Because the modules are being removed, so are the BPOs. CCP is refunding everyone with those BPOs with their value in AUR. Everyone is freaking out because .....reasons. TL;DR I can't convince you to care, because you really shouldn't care. People are just acting like children. Ok. I understad that this is the premise of the argument. I'm interested in the "reasons". And never TL;DR. Not directed at you personally but it's an awful habit people should wean off of. For best results press R1 repeatedly. Consult your doctor if your erection persists for more than four hours.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1071	Posted - 2013.11.26 01:38:00 - [6] - Quote Midas Fool wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: People purchased AUR with Real World Money People used said AUR to buy BPO modules for vehicles. CCP decided to remove those modules entirely from the game. Because the modules are being removed, so are the BPOs. CCP is refunding everyone with those BPOs with their value in AUR. Everyone is freaking out because .....reasons. TL;DR I can't convince you to care, because you really shouldn't care. People are just acting like children. Ok. I understad that this is the premise of the argument. I'm interested in the "reasons". And never TL;DR. Not directed at you personally but it's an awful habit people should wean off of. They're upset because they purchased AUR with the intent of spending it on said BPOs and they feel that CCP owes them a refund of the real world money, or more. They feel entitled to a cash refund or some other compensation beyond the AUR because they feel inconvenienced by the fact that their militia BPOs are being taken away. Also I was just trying to be coy with the tl;dr, I didn't actually think you would skip the post and I do agree that people should actually read posts instead of skip to the summary at the end. ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 532	Posted - 2013.11.26 01:38:00 - [7] - Quote The crux of it is that bpo-holders got those bpos (in most cases by spending non-trivial amounts of RL money) under the understanding that they would provide in-game benefits. With the removal of blueprints from sale and the uncertainty about what will happen from now on, they are uncertain and anxious not to lose that benefit. I can see their concern; one reason I bought the veteran pack was for the blueprints, and if those blueprints just became vanity skins for stuff I would be forced to buy with isk anyway, I would feel somewhat ripped off and justifiably so. In addition, some blueprints are limited-edition so CCP handing out aurum and removing them is also unsatisfactory. There are ways to get around this problem, and I can think of a few, e.g. Quote: option a) all blueprints generate a few items per day for free, but you have to use the items on your fits, not the blueprint itself. So, each blueprint's applicability is capped per day (and thus its effect on the market is capped) or Quote: option b) all blueprints become vanity skins on existing isk items. You equip the blueprint to your suit, and it will turn a standard cleanskin item into the blueprint item when you spawn. CCP reimburses players with a certain amount of Aurum when this change comes through, to compensate them for severely reducing the functionality of blueprints. However, without a clear guidance from CCP, the angst will continue. "Pulvis et umbra sumus. (We are but dust and shadow.)" GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1072	Posted - 2013.11.26 01:41:00 - [8] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: I can see their concern; one reason I bought the veteran pack was for the blueprints, and if those blueprints just became vanity skins for stuff I would be forced to buy with isk anyway, I would feel somewhat ripped off and justifiably so. You are very correct in that concern, as those BPOs in the Veteran Pack were purchased directly with real world cash. If CCP were to remove those, they would likely be legally obligated to refund the cash. However because the modules in question were only purchasable with AUR and not available directly in any pack, there is no legal obligation to refund the cash for the BPOs, only the AUR used to buy the BPOs since the AUR was purchased directly. So I understand the slippery slope concern, but there is a significant difference in the BPOs you're worried about and the ones actually in question now. ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 534	Posted - 2013.11.26 01:43:00 - [9] - Quote In the case where blueprints went from 25AUR to 4800AUR, CCP must make a decision whether to refund the original purchase price, the current price, or somewhere in between. As I said, no guidance -> angst. "Pulvis et umbra sumus. (We are but dust and shadow.)" GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace
Midas Fool T.R.I.A.D 215	Posted - 2013.11.26 01:51:00 - [10] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: In the case where blueprints went from 25AUR to 4800AUR, CCP must make a decision whether to refund the original purchase price, the current price, or somewhere in between. As I said, no guidance -> angst. I own all four blueprints in question and I was lucky enough to purchase them when they were somewhere around 50 Aur apiece. As with the Uprising update where my MLT suit BPOs were refunded around tenfold to match the most current prices, I expected CCP to be doing the same with these four. Is this not the case? Also, is there real concern that dropsuit module BPOs are in jeopardy of similar changes? For best results press R1 repeatedly. Consult your doctor if your erection persists for more than four hours.

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5314	Posted - 2013.11.26 02:10:00 - [11] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: I can see their concern; one reason I bought the veteran pack was for the blueprints, and if those blueprints just became vanity skins for stuff I would be forced to buy with isk anyway, I would feel somewhat ripped off and justifiably so. You are very correct in that concern, as those BPOs in the Veteran Pack were purchased directly with real world cash. If CCP were to remove those, they would likely be legally obligated to refund the cash. However because the modules in question were only purchasable with AUR and not available directly in any pack, there is no legal obligation to refund the cash for the BPOs, only the AUR used to buy the BPOs since the AUR was purchased directly. So I understand the slippery slope concern, but there is a significant difference in the BPOs you're worried about and the ones actually in question now. Correct. The BPOs that are currently being removed are militia-level vehicle modules that were only available from the in-game market which meant that you had to purchase AUR from Sony (not CCP) first. The problem with the assumption that these buyers are entitled to a direct cash refund or at least a PSN Store Credit is divided into two parts. 1. Sony doesn't give cash refund according to their own EULA/ToS regarding PSN account holders. Therefore PSN Store Credit is the only available option. 2. As far as Sony is concerned, you only paid money for the AUR, not for the BPOs. Sony doesn't care what you intend to do with the AUR once you bought it. If CCP refunds you all of the AUR, then as far as Sony is concerned you lost no AUR in the process and therefore Sony will not give you any PSN Store Credit. This is because according to their transaction records you paid money for the AUR directly, not the BPOs. Of course if the BPOs were part of the merc packs that Sony was selling directly and those BPOs got removed by CCP, then Sony would give you store credit equal to the estimated value of the BPO removed such as the 'Templar' Dropsuits, 'Toxin' SMGs, and other such items that the merc packs came with. Given the complicated nature of this type of refund, CCP will be limited to removing ONLY bpo's that were never sold together with any bundle in either the PSN Store or in the Eve Second Decade Collector's Edition. Beyond that, they risk putting themselves in some serious legal bird poop. Another reason why NOT ALL BPOs can be removed is that there are some BPOs that you don't pay for but your placed a lot of effort into earning them. 'Skinweave' dropsuit and 'Exile' Assault Rifle BPOs come to mind. There are also the recruiter rewards that feature BPOs of their own respective tier. These have no AUR value but do require immense effort to acquire. If these get removed, what possible compensation can there be for their removal? You can't calculate the AUR value because they have none and you can't measure effort on a monetary scale. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2332	Posted - 2013.11.26 02:10:00 - [12] - Quote With the vehicle changes coming in 1.7, a few of the BPOs will become obsolete. CCP decided to remedy this by refunding said BPOs for their aurum price. On the surface, this seems perfectly fine. However because BPOs are no longer available to purchase, this means that CCP has removed irreplaceable items from players' inventories in exchange for a currency that can no longer offer access to the content it was originally purchased for. All this is compounded by the fact that only a week ago CCP confirmed that no BPOs would be removed from player inventories. Those upset by this action by CCP take two forms: 1. Those who think CCP has some degree of legal culpability for this action 2. Those who think, legal or not, that this kind of business practice shows a lack of respect to those who have spent money on the game. And that it devalues aurum purchases, harming the profitability that is crucial to the game's survival. The detractors use a few arguments themselves: 1. Since we agree to CCP's terms & conditions upon logging in, we have no right to object to anything they do. Be that buffs & nerfs, or item removal. 2. We shouldn't expect anything we purchase on the market to be guaranteed. Design choices take precedence over player preference. Edit: My personal suggestion is that CCP could easily offer equivalent BPOs from the new content. It would demonstrate that they are true to their word when they said they wouldn't remove BPOs, and allay fears that few BPOs in the game are safe. No.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5314	Posted - 2013.11.26 02:12:00 - [13] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: In the case where blueprints went from 25AUR to 4800AUR, CCP must make a decision whether to refund the original purchase price, the current price, or somewhere in between. As I said, no guidance -> angst. You can't go inbetween. Players who purchased full price will be ripped off for sure while players who purchased at discount levels will still benefit. You can't go with original price either for the same reason. CCP will have to refund at the current market price. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Sgt Kirk SyNergy Gaming EoN. 3027	Posted - 2013.11.26 02:16:00 - [14] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: BPOs were cheaply priced and there seemed to be a notice that prices were to increase. Some Eve minded entrepreneurs purchased many of them in anticipation of the reset and/or player market. I remember a post on the forums from a guy that would have had something like $15K worth of AUR if refunded or something crazy like that (prices went from like 40 AUR to 4500 if I recall correctly). That post was blued up and they quickly announced that BPOs would not be refunded. People were talking even more crazy then as they are now. Oh man, it was insanity back then. The horror, The horror
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5314	Posted - 2013.11.26 02:18:00 - [15] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: BPOs were cheaply priced and there seemed to be a notice that prices were to increase. Some Eve minded entrepreneurs purchased many of them in anticipation of the reset and/or player market. I remember a post on the forums from a guy that would have had something like $15K worth of AUR if refunded or something crazy like that (prices went from like 40 AUR to 4500 if I recall correctly). That post was blued up and they quickly announced that BPOs would not be refunded. People were talking even more crazy then as they are now. Oh man, it was insanity back then. The horror, The horror I think it was like 4 million AUR potential profit. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Audrey2 Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2013.11.26 02:20:00 - [16] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: People purchased AUR with Real World Money People used said AUR to buy BPO modules for vehicles. CCP decided to remove those modules entirely from the game. Because the modules are being removed, so are the BPOs. CCP is refunding everyone with those BPOs with their value in AUR. People either end up with the same amount of AUR that they started with, or in some cases more than they started with. this guy got most of it.... here's the problem with the aur refund... these items were supposed to be permanent. we were assured here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=116404&find=unread that regardless of changes bpo's would remain in our inventories. a month later we read this post: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=122274&find=unread subtly stating some bpo's were being removed due to changes that ccp are making to vehicles (this we feels opens the door to removing all bpo's) the reason aur isn't good enough is because ccp devalued that currency by exhibiting that our purchases are not safe. it showed us what we buy today could change tomorrow. (and this isn't the first time they did something similar with contact grenades a few months ago) we want CCP to know for the benefit of all of us that we wont put up with these business behaviors. SAY NO TO BPO REMOVALS!
Gorra Snell The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 250	Posted - 2013.11.26 02:26:00 - [17] - Quote I think there's a bit of "prolog" to this situation which might explain the intensity a bit. At EVE Vegas, a panelist received a question which, as I recall, was "are my BPO's safe"? The panelist seemed, from my perspective, to have misheard/misinterpreted the question as "are BPOs safe", to which he replied, "no". What I believe he meant was "no, we're in the process of removing them from the market." In any case, this caused a bit of a panic here on the forums, there was a bit of a threadnaught on the topic, and CCP issues a clarification that BPOs were being removed from the market only, and not from inventories. A couple of weeks later, here we are, and the BPOs in question are being removed from inventories. That's all my attempt at impartial reporting. IMO, we've known for a while that they were paring back the vehicle module selection, and as soon as I heard that I assumed we'd be getting refunds for any BPO equivalents they removed, but hey... RDVs are a failed experiment - can't we just remove them from the game?
Sgt Kirk SyNergy Gaming EoN. 3027	Posted - 2013.11.26 02:29:00 - [18] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: I think it was like 4 million AUR potential profit. Dude I could have had around $800k net gain, I was hysterical at that time baahahhahaha.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5317	Posted - 2013.11.26 02:30:00 - [19] - Quote Audrey2 wrote: here's the problem with the aur refund... these items were supposed to be permanent. Maybe this is unintentional on your part, but you make it seem that the BPOs are permanent in the sense that CCP will never remove them. That is incorrect. The BPOs are permanent in the sense that the dropsuits, modules, weapons, equipment and vehicles they represent don't get consumed in battle upon your death. That is what permanent means in Dust. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5317	Posted - 2013.11.26 02:31:00 - [20] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: I think it was like 4 million AUR potential profit. Dude I could have had around $800k net gain, I was hysterical at that time baahahhahaha. You. Seriously. Bought. That much? CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.

XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 677	Posted - 2013.11.26 02:32:00 - [21] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: People purchased AUR with Real World Money People used said AUR to buy BPO modules for vehicles. CCP decided to remove those modules entirely from the game. Because the modules are being removed, so are the BPOs. CCP is refunding everyone with those BPOs with their value in AUR. People either end up with the same amount of AUR that they started with, or in some cases more than they started with. Net loss is therefor zero, as everyone ended with the same amount of AUR that they started with. Everyone is freaking out because .....reasons. TL;DR I can't convince you to care, because you really shouldn't care. People are just acting like children. This is the exact thing that is happening. It's the same thing as a refund but some people don't want this. They want the oey they spent on the aurum which is not possible. They spent their money on aurum and not on BPOs therefor returning their aurum is the fair thing to do. Plasma Cannon Advocate
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1073	Posted - 2013.11.26 02:34:00 - [22] - Quote Audrey2 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: People purchased AUR with Real World Money People used said AUR to buy BPO modules for vehicles. CCP decided to remove those modules entirely from the game. Because the modules are being removed, so are the BPOs. CCP is refunding everyone with those BPOs with their value in AUR. People either end up with the same amount of AUR that they started with, or in some cases more than they started with. this guy got most of it.... here's the problem with the aur refund... these items were supposed to be permanent. we were assured here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=116404&find=unread that regardless of changes bpo's would remain in our inventories. a month later we read this post: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=122274&find=unread subtly stating some bpo's were being removed due to changes that ccp are making to vehicles (this we feels opens the door to removing all bpo's) the reason aur isn't good enough is because ccp devalued that currency by exhibiting that our purchases are not safe. it showed us what we buy today could change tomorrow. (and this isn't the first time they did something similar with contact grenades a few months ago) we want CCP to know for the benefit of all of us that we wont put up with these business behaviors. I get what you're saying, but you also have to understand that ** changes. You can't assume that everything a company says will be true forever because ** changes outside their initial expectations. Sometimes at my work we make promises that we can't keep because the situation changes, it sucks but unfortunately that's how the world works. While I do understand why people are upset, the talk of legal proceedings and whatnot is simply stupid, because there is no legal obligation on CCPs part, just a bad PR situation. I also don't really see how else they could have handled it. The modules are being removed completely, so it's not like they're taking the BPOs away "just because". It's also difficult to determine "proper compensation" other than the AUR value. They could offer BPOs of similar modules once they're released, but again they're trying to phase out BPOs because they're bad for the economy. So I get it, you guys feel wronged and lied to, and because of that you're upset. However offering some compensation beyond the AUR simply doesn't work. I honestly ask those who are upset by this...aside from some other BPO or a cash refund, what sort of compensation are you expecting? ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5317	Posted - 2013.11.26 02:37:00 - [23] - Quote Gorra Snell wrote: I think there's a bit of "prolog" to this situation which might explain the intensity a bit. At EVE Vegas, a panelist received a question which, as I recall, was "are my BPO's safe"? The panelist seemed, from my perspective, to have misheard/misinterpreted the question as "are BPOs safe", to which he replied, "no". What I believe he meant was "no, we're in the process of removing them from the market." In any case, this caused a bit of a panic here on the forums, there was a bit of a threadnaught on the topic, and CCP issues a clarification that BPOs were being removed from the market only, and not from inventories. A couple of weeks later, here we are, and the BPOs in question are being removed from inventories. That's all my attempt at impartial reporting. IMO, we've known for a while that they were paring back the vehicle module selection, and as soon as I heard that I assumed we'd be getting refunds for any BPO equivalents they removed, but hey... Yeah, that's something I can't simply ignore. CCP did go back on their word there. And despite what all the unecessary rage that the "NO BPO REMOVAL" crowd was displaying, they still have a point in regards to CCP not keeping to their word. This wasn't the first time either. I'll give you ONE. VERY. CLEAR. EXAMPLE.... Picture it.... Jita IV - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant Incarna releases.... RIOTS ENSUE!!! Nearly 2,000 subscriptions cancelled, 100+ employees at CCP office laid off, and Dust 514 development suffer a temporary production halt. Why? Because CCP didn't deliver on their promise as made evident by their Incarna 1.0 expansion. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5318	Posted - 2013.11.26 03:08:00 - [24] - Quote Bumping because this thread has been constructive so far. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Audrey2 Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2013.11.26 03:53:00 - [25] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Audrey2 wrote: here's the problem with the aur refund... these items were supposed to be permanent. Maybe this is unintentional on your part, but you make it seem that the BPOs are permanent in the sense that CCP will never remove them. That is incorrect. The BPOs are permanent in the sense that the dropsuits, modules, weapons, equipment and vehicles they represent don't get consumed in battle upon your death. That is what permanent means in Dust. so it's to be semantics? permanent is permanent... I was never given any indication that an item I bought from ccp that implied permanence would be pulled out from under my feet in such an obtuse way.... but even so, it still doesn't change the fact that confidence in their aur has dropped making it less valuable then the aur I purchased, and certainly less valuable than the bpo. SAY NO TO BPO REMOVALS!
Ivy Zalinto Bobbit's Hangmen 26	Posted - 2013.11.26 04:27:00 - [26] - Quote Adding my 2 cents into this conversation while I can. I for one don't believe the dropsuit and weapon bpo's will actually be removed from the game unless somehow standard level gear becomes gamebreaking which is highly doubtful. According to the readout I did when thinking about buying the vet pack for the dren scout g-1, it has the same stats as my Valor g-1. Same maker and model different skin. Now when a player market comes into play I will be looking to buy a dren with isk specificly for the thought of having it. However I didnt feel it was worth dropping a hundred bucks on a bunch of other stuff im not going to use. This being said I personally feel people are freaking out thinking that other things are going to be removed down the line. I dont know if they will be, however i do know this. If they didn't have the money to spend on the aur and the bpo's for the game, they shouldn't have spent the money. Know what I did for the 20 bucks for the merc pack and my valor scout? I pressure washed someones driveway in a half hours time. So if they remove my valor, big deal. Ill spend the 3k isk each death its saving me and continue playing the game I actually like. When the player markets come out the bpo suits are undoubtedly going to be available in very limited quantities due to ccp removing them from the market and people will be selling them at a very steep price. Though again, those that have them will simply have them and those that don't will still shell out the isk for the better suits in general. From a collector standpoint, sure part of a collection was lost and i will give you hugs later with my scout if you ask. From behind....with a plasma cannon shell. From a functionality standpoint, they aren't losing really anything worth noting because the same level of content is in the game generally for 3k isk... Dedicated scout. Because the suit is underpowered. Imagine the good ones when we get buffed people ;)
Chesyre Armundsen Thanes Of Dust 8	Posted - 2013.11.26 04:27:00 - [27] - Quote What I fail to understand is the passion behind the BPO arguments. This forum's population has been for, and against, changes to all aspects of gameplay since the beginning. "Buff this, nerf that!" I recall player plans for BPO's to: 1. Supplement fittings with modules which would not expend isk upon restock 2. Sell on the market at inflated price once the market opened The thought that some aspects of the game mechanic will be held static while others are up for change is a little biased. This argument serves the person who's gain is the greatest. I am willing to bet that this is less of an argument over CCP keeping their word in the development of a game in beta and more to do with the generic whining of players who cannot embrace the changes that will occasionally happen. Refunds of virtual currency (whether purchased with real money or not) should be on par with current market value for said item at the time of purchase. End of story. I'm willing to put out there that CCP is trying to be too democratic and listening to too many opinions.
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 157	Posted - 2013.11.26 04:28:00 - [28] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: I can see their concern; one reason I bought the veteran pack was for the blueprints, and if those blueprints just became vanity skins for stuff I would be forced to buy with isk anyway, I would feel somewhat ripped off and justifiably so. You are very correct in that concern, as those BPOs in the Veteran Pack were purchased directly with real world cash. If CCP were to remove those, they would likely be legally obligated to refund the cash. However because the modules in question were only purchasable with AUR and not available directly in any pack, there is no legal obligation to refund the cash for the BPOs, only the AUR used to buy the BPOs since the AUR was purchased directly. So I understand the slippery slope concern, but there is a significant difference in the BPOs you're worried about and the ones actually in question now. Ccp is not legally obligated to refund anything Christ is lord Sanguine knights , open recruitment, join now. Free tacos
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5319	Posted - 2013.11.26 04:29:00 - [29] - Quote Audrey2 wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Audrey2 wrote: here's the problem with the aur refund... these items were supposed to be permanent. Maybe this is unintentional on your part, but you make it seem that the BPOs are permanent in the sense that CCP will never remove them. That is incorrect. The BPOs are permanent in the sense that the dropsuits, modules, weapons, equipment and vehicles they represent don't get consumed in battle upon your death. That is what permanent means in Dust. so it's to be semantics? permanent is permanent... I was never given any indication that an item I bought from ccp that implied permanence would be pulled out from under my feet in such an obtuse way.... but even so, it still doesn't change the fact that confidence in their aur has dropped making it less valuable then the aur I purchased, and certainly less valuable than the bpo. It's not about semantics. It's about context. From the moment those BPOs were first introduced back in closed beta to the moment CCP removed them from the market, it was made very clear that those BPOs, from the general understanding of the players all the way to the dev blogs, game-review sites, and beyond, were permanent in terms of having infinite supply of said item. They were permanent because they were non-consumable in the battlefield. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Spectre-M The Generals 121	Posted - 2013.11.26 04:56:00 - [30] - Quote The trolls must be sleeping. Elite pack. The most I use is the LAV BPO. I use it to get my squad around skirmish and helps when I can bring blueberries to where they need to be. I even use those modules on it. I use the dren heavy as my av fit with fg and av nades. Raven suit with all BPO fit including ar grenades and modules. Let's me dabble in std which I like as I get to try fits before committing. But the setup I run 99% of the time is Amarr adv costing about 50k a fit. Just as an example of usage of said BPOs.

Audrey2 Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2013.11.26 05:04:00 - [31] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Audrey2 wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Audrey2 wrote: here's the problem with the aur refund... these items were supposed to be permanent. Maybe this is unintentional on your part, but you make it seem that the BPOs are permanent in the sense that CCP will never remove them. That is incorrect. The BPOs are permanent in the sense that the dropsuits, modules, weapons, equipment and vehicles they represent don't get consumed in battle upon your death. That is what permanent means in Dust. so it's to be semantics? permanent is permanent... I was never given any indication that an item I bought from ccp that implied permanence would be pulled out from under my feet in such an obtuse way.... but even so, it still doesn't change the fact that confidence in their aur has dropped making it less valuable then the aur I purchased, and certainly less valuable than the bpo. It's not about semantics. It's about context. From the moment those BPOs were first introduced back in closed beta to the moment CCP removed them from the market, it was made very clear that those BPOs, from the general understanding of the players all the way to the dev blogs, game-review sites, and beyond, were permanent in terms of having infinite supply of said item. They were permanent because they were non-consumable in the battlefield. and remained in your inventory....and I don't remember the exact wording anymore but blueprints were described as being permanent items in your inventory. and lets face it was also always implied they were ours to keep. SAY NO TO BPO REMOVALS!
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5320	Posted - 2013.11.26 05:06:00 - [32] - Quote Audrey2 wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Audrey2 wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Audrey2 wrote: here's the problem with the aur refund... these items were supposed to be permanent. Maybe this is unintentional on your part, but you make it seem that the BPOs are permanent in the sense that CCP will never remove them. That is incorrect. The BPOs are permanent in the sense that the dropsuits, modules, weapons, equipment and vehicles they represent don't get consumed in battle upon your death. That is what permanent means in Dust. so it's to be semantics? permanent is permanent... I was never given any indication that an item I bought from ccp that implied permanence would be pulled out from under my feet in such an obtuse way.... but even so, it still doesn't change the fact that confidence in their aur has dropped making it less valuable then the aur I purchased, and certainly less valuable than the bpo. It's not about semantics. It's about context. From the moment those BPOs were first introduced back in closed beta to the moment CCP removed them from the market, it was made very clear that those BPOs, from the general understanding of the players all the way to the dev blogs, game-review sites, and beyond, were permanent in terms of having infinite supply of said item. They were permanent because they were non-consumable in the battlefield. and remained in your inventory....and I don't remember the exact wording anymore but blueprints were described as being permanent items in your inventory. and lets face it was also always implied they were ours to keep. You may have a point there now that you put it that way. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10782	Posted - 2013.11.26 05:08:00 - [33] - Quote deepfried salad gilliam wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: SponkSponkSponk wrote: I can see their concern; one reason I bought the veteran pack was for the blueprints, and if those blueprints just became vanity skins for stuff I would be forced to buy with isk anyway, I would feel somewhat ripped off and justifiably so. You are very correct in that concern, as those BPOs in the Veteran Pack were purchased directly with real world cash. If CCP were to remove those, they would likely be legally obligated to refund the cash. However because the modules in question were only purchasable with AUR and not available directly in any pack, there is no legal obligation to refund the cash for the BPOs, only the AUR used to buy the BPOs since the AUR was purchased directly. So I understand the slippery slope concern, but there is a significant difference in the BPOs you're worried about and the ones actually in question now. Ccp is not legally obligated to refund anything That statement could be taken to court though and a good court would go either side though especially if the company is the one directly responsible for the deletion or inaccess. The other variables start to flow in afterwards though such as what lead to the in access or item removal. For example what if Dust 514 where to shut down? What right do then customers have to demand refunds on a shutdown game? This is where the clauses in most EULAs cover that the game company has the right to shut down its game and that you technically own none of the intellectual property on the servers. Last time I heard a lawsuit over a mmo getting shutdown the suing party wound up for the bill on continued operations of the servers but that was ages ago before EULAs where widely used to stop lawsuits like that. If oh say CCP accidentally deleted the said item then yes, the customers have a right to get mad and hopefully CCP restocks the item into the inventories of those affected instead of saying 'oh well tough luck.' In this case however CCP is indeed intentionally refunding the items back as game version does not tolerate its existence anymore because of the software version no longer supports it. I haven't seen any recent cases or recall any older cases that are similar. The closest potential I see on the horizon is DE's Warframe having to deal with the helmet stat removal. DE has strongly expressed that the Helmets with stats was a major mistake design wise. Players have expressed a disdain for the stats on some helmets (they have some extremely hefty stats cost. ) but love the looks of the helmet however some players bought the helmets for the stats alone and wished they didn't look as 'silly.' DE wants to remove the stats off the helmets, DE also cannot just blanket bomb the refunds back as some players like myself have obtained those helmets through game play and not premium purchases. I do see that their likely decision will be a game design one that supports 'rigging' the suits with the stats and divorcing the stats on the helmet. On CCP case - At least with a refund of equal of similar value CCP avoids that issue entirely but now begs the question was the refund legal in the first place? Then the item itself. We know that CCP has expressed that BPOs as they are was a design mistake because they will hurt the future (and is already currently hurting portions of the game severely) Unfortunately we don't have time machines to get rid of them before they existed. CCP could use game design to 'fix' the issue of the BPOs mere existence but the fact remains there is no such system in place yet or in 1.7 or in the foreseeable known future of Dust 514 and to be honest it doesn't look like there be one feasibly materialized any time soon. CCP could do the optional refund but it would excessively stress the customer service queue and may delay other legitimate concerns such as billing, missing rewards, and other disputes. Either way relaying the 'highly filtered' concerns to CCP and trying to get something done on a short fuse is no easy task. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier Specialist Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
Pvt Numnutz Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 321	Posted - 2013.11.26 06:44:00 - [34] - Quote This is how I understand it, the actual Bpos aren't the issue here. I think we can all agree they are pretty useless. The real issue is that ccp has removed these bpos from players inventory. Most people who I have seen posting feel wronged and think that ccp has a conspiracy to remove all bpos. I believe what stemmed most of this was a post by ccp logibro stating that certain packs would be removed from the market place, but bpos in players inventories would remain. This was stated before ccp had decided to remove the moduals/bpos. Ccp frame then made a post about the 4 bpos in question and how their moduals, and subsequently the bpos for those moduals were going to be removed. Many people believe this is ccp telling a lie and cheating them. Logibros post was about the removal of packs and reassuring those who bought packs with bpos that the removal of the packs would not affect their already purchased bpos. Logibros post was truthful, the bpos werent removed. Nor were any bpos. Ccp frame then posted about the removal of 4 specific bpos that conflicted with the vehicle rebalancing patch and that the moduals and bpos would be removed and refunded at full price. (I really want to clear this up as they keep bringing it up as proof that ccp is going back on their word when clearly they aren't) This made a few players very insecure about their aur and bpos. They felt that ccp could now take away all their bpos. They feel that giving a full price aur refund is not enough to compensate for ccp removing the bpos. They thought bpos would always be in their inventory no matter the changes to the game and are shocked that they too are liable to change. So they are outraged. They were compensated for the removal. All other bpos are remaining in their inventories just like ccp said. The items they are refunding are equal to or greater than their original investment. In your case midas, it is now worth more than your initial investment. Ccp has never said anything about bpos being permanent items, if you thought they were then obviously you were wrong. It is my opinion that ccp hasn't stepped over their bounds. They are being fair and honest with what they are doing. Items have not lost value but even gained some. Freaking out over this is pointless.
Chesyre Armundsen Thanes Of Dust 12	Posted - 2013.11.26 11:03:00 - [35] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: This is how I understand it, the actual Bpos aren't the issue here. I think we can all agree they are pretty useless. The real issue is that ccp has removed these bpos from players inventory. Most people who I have seen posting feel wronged and think that ccp has a conspiracy to remove all bpos. I believe what stemmed most of this was a post by ccp logibro stating that certain packs would be removed from the market place, but bpos in players inventories would remain. This was stated before ccp had decided to remove the moduals/bpos. Ccp frame then made a post about the 4 bpos in question and how their moduals, and subsequently the bpos for those moduals were going to be removed. Many people believe this is ccp telling a lie and cheating them. Logibros post was about the removal of packs and reassuring those who bought packs with bpos that the removal of the packs would not affect their already purchased bpos. Logibros post was truthful, the bpos werent removed. Nor were any bpos. Ccp frame then posted about the removal of 4 specific bpos that conflicted with the vehicle rebalancing patch and that the moduals and bpos would be removed and refunded at full price. (I really want to clear this up as they keep bringing it up as proof that ccp is going back on their word when clearly they aren't) This made a few players very insecure about their aur and bpos. They felt that ccp could now take away all their bpos. They feel that giving a full price aur refund is not enough to compensate for ccp removing the bpos. They thought bpos would always be in their inventory no matter the changes to the game and are shocked that they too are liable to change. So they are outraged. They were compensated for the removal. All other bpos are remaining in their inventories just like ccp said. The items they are refunding are equal to or greater than their original investment. In your case midas, it is now worth more than your initial investment. Ccp has never said anything about bpos being permanent items, if you thought they were then obviously you were wrong. It is my opinion that ccp hasn't stepped over their bounds. They are being fair and honest with what they are doing. Items have not lost value but even gained some. Freaking out over this is pointless. Well said Pvt...well said. slow clap
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 164	Posted - 2013.11.26 11:18:00 - [36] - Quote Here's my view as a long time buyer of merc packs and aurum. - In the upcoming patch I have one module being removed (a militio vehicle BPO) and I'm getting a refund (4800 aurum I believe). Now I have no problem with the removal of the module, or the refund. - What I DO have a problem with is that now there is little use for Aurum. There are no more BPO's on the marketplace, these were by far the best value when using aurum. There are expendable items, which I don't need, since their only use is for using items which you aren't skilled for (in itself, a weird concept since you won't be effective on the battlefield with them anyway), and this in a game where you can burn through up to 10 suits or more in a single battle, they are terrible value. It leaves boosters, which I have plenty of due to my purchases of aforementioned merc packs. - So this leaves two acceptable options for those affected: Improve the aurum marketplace - more/different boosters, vanity BPO items, aurum-respecs,etc. Give me a BPO of the equivalent module that is replacing the deprecated one. I think it's in CCP's best interest to improve the uses of Aurum, considering it is their primary revenue stream at work. If there is little use for the currency, what use is there buying it - which begs the question, where else do you get your revenue from in this free to play game?
David Spd Caldari State 108	Posted - 2013.11.26 11:21:00 - [37] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: snip DE didn't remove the stats on the helmets that had them, and if memory serves explicitly stated they were staying on those particular helmets. All future helmets will come without stats, though. Unless I misunderstood and you meant hypothetical. --> I'm a closed beta vet; I just don't post often <-- "Other people just complicate my life." ~Solid Snake
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5332	Posted - 2013.11.26 14:40:00 - [38] - Quote Justicar Karnellia wrote: Here's my view as a long time buyer of merc packs and aurum. - In the upcoming patch I have one module being removed (a militio vehicle BPO) and I'm getting a refund (4800 aurum I believe). Now I have no problem with the removal of the module, or the refund. - What I DO have a problem with is that now there is little use for Aurum. There are no more BPO's on the marketplace, these were by far the best value when using aurum. There are expendable items, which I don't need, since their only use is for using items which you aren't skilled for (in itself, a weird concept since you won't be effective on the battlefield with them anyway), and this in a game where you can burn through up to 10 suits or more in a single battle, they are terrible value. It leaves boosters, which I have plenty of due to my purchases of aforementioned merc packs. - So this leaves two acceptable options for those affected: Improve the aurum marketplace - more/different boosters, vanity BPO items, aurum-respecs,etc. Give me a BPO of the equivalent module that is replacing the deprecated one. I think it's in CCP's best interest to improve the uses of Aurum, considering it is their primary revenue stream at work. If there is little use for the currency, what use is there buying it - which begs the question, where else do you get your revenue from in this free to play game? In that case, is best for CCP to improve the aurum market by adding more variety such as an aurum paint bucket system that is permanent, customize our merc quarters, purchase vanity clothes from the Eve Noble Exchange store, etc. Also, CCP can improve booster sales by implementing that SP rollover system they promised a long time ago. If they do all this, then the aurum will become much more useful in the long run. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10808	Posted - 2013.11.27 00:58:00 - [39] - Quote David Spd wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: snip DE didn't remove the stats on the helmets that had them, and if memory serves explicitly stated they were staying on those particular helmets. All future helmets will come without stats, though. Unless I misunderstood and you meant hypothetical. You are right and DE hasn't done anything specifically yet. Just DE continues to express the desire to remove the stats from the old helmets but allow players to be able to access those stats still and get the helmets old helmets without stats. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier Specialist Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked


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