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Audrey2
Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2013.11.26 05:04:00 -
[31] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Audrey2 wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Audrey2 wrote:here's the problem with the aur refund...
these items were supposed to be permanent. Maybe this is unintentional on your part, but you make it seem that the BPOs are permanent in the sense that CCP will never remove them. That is incorrect. The BPOs are permanent in the sense that the dropsuits, modules, weapons, equipment and vehicles they represent don't get consumed in battle upon your death. That is what permanent means in Dust. so it's to be semantics? permanent is permanent... I was never given any indication that an item I bought from ccp that implied permanence would be pulled out from under my feet in such an obtuse way.... but even so, it still doesn't change the fact that confidence in their aur has dropped making it less valuable then the aur I purchased, and certainly less valuable than the bpo. It's not about semantics. It's about context. From the moment those BPOs were first introduced back in closed beta to the moment CCP removed them from the market, it was made very clear that those BPOs, from the general understanding of the players all the way to the dev blogs, game-review sites, and beyond, were permanent in terms of having infinite supply of said item. They were permanent because they were non-consumable in the battlefield.
and remained in your inventory....and I don't remember the exact wording anymore but blueprints were described as being permanent items in your inventory.
and lets face it was also always implied they were ours to keep.
SAY NO TO BPO REMOVALS!
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
5320
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Posted - 2013.11.26 05:06:00 -
[32] - Quote
Audrey2 wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Audrey2 wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Audrey2 wrote:here's the problem with the aur refund...
these items were supposed to be permanent. Maybe this is unintentional on your part, but you make it seem that the BPOs are permanent in the sense that CCP will never remove them. That is incorrect. The BPOs are permanent in the sense that the dropsuits, modules, weapons, equipment and vehicles they represent don't get consumed in battle upon your death. That is what permanent means in Dust. so it's to be semantics? permanent is permanent... I was never given any indication that an item I bought from ccp that implied permanence would be pulled out from under my feet in such an obtuse way.... but even so, it still doesn't change the fact that confidence in their aur has dropped making it less valuable then the aur I purchased, and certainly less valuable than the bpo. It's not about semantics. It's about context. From the moment those BPOs were first introduced back in closed beta to the moment CCP removed them from the market, it was made very clear that those BPOs, from the general understanding of the players all the way to the dev blogs, game-review sites, and beyond, were permanent in terms of having infinite supply of said item. They were permanent because they were non-consumable in the battlefield. and remained in your inventory....and I don't remember the exact wording anymore but blueprints were described as being permanent items in your inventory. and lets face it was also always implied they were ours to keep.
You may have a point there now that you put it that way.
CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
10782
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Posted - 2013.11.26 05:08:00 -
[33] - Quote
deepfried salad gilliam wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:SponkSponkSponk wrote: I can see their concern; one reason I bought the veteran pack was for the blueprints, and if those blueprints just became vanity skins for stuff I would be forced to buy with isk anyway, I would feel somewhat ripped off and justifiably so.
You are very correct in that concern, as those BPOs in the Veteran Pack were purchased directly with real world cash. If CCP were to remove those, they would likely be legally obligated to refund the cash. However because the modules in question were only purchasable with AUR and not available directly in any pack, there is no legal obligation to refund the cash for the BPOs, only the AUR used to buy the BPOs since the AUR was purchased directly. So I understand the slippery slope concern, but there is a significant difference in the BPOs you're worried about and the ones actually in question now. Ccp is not legally obligated to refund anything
That statement could be taken to court though and a good court would go either side though especially if the company is the one directly responsible for the deletion or inaccess. The other variables start to flow in afterwards though such as what lead to the in access or item removal. For example what if Dust 514 where to shut down? What right do then customers have to demand refunds on a shutdown game? This is where the clauses in most EULAs cover that the game company has the right to shut down its game and that you technically own none of the intellectual property on the servers. Last time I heard a lawsuit over a mmo getting shutdown the suing party wound up for the bill on continued operations of the servers but that was ages ago before EULAs where widely used to stop lawsuits like that.
If oh say CCP accidentally deleted the said item then yes, the customers have a right to get mad and hopefully CCP restocks the item into the inventories of those affected instead of saying 'oh well tough luck.'
In this case however CCP is indeed intentionally refunding the items back as game version does not tolerate its existence anymore because of the software version no longer supports it. I haven't seen any recent cases or recall any older cases that are similar.
The closest potential I see on the horizon is DE's Warframe having to deal with the helmet stat removal. DE has strongly expressed that the Helmets with stats was a major mistake design wise. Players have expressed a disdain for the stats on some helmets (they have some extremely hefty stats cost. ) but love the looks of the helmet however some players bought the helmets for the stats alone and wished they didn't look as 'silly.' DE wants to remove the stats off the helmets, DE also cannot just blanket bomb the refunds back as some players like myself have obtained those helmets through game play and not premium purchases. I do see that their likely decision will be a game design one that supports 'rigging' the suits with the stats and divorcing the stats on the helmet.
On CCP case - At least with a refund of equal of similar value CCP avoids that issue entirely but now begs the question was the refund legal in the first place? Then the item itself. We know that CCP has expressed that BPOs as they are was a design mistake because they will hurt the future (and is already currently hurting portions of the game severely) Unfortunately we don't have time machines to get rid of them before they existed. CCP could use game design to 'fix' the issue of the BPOs mere existence but the fact remains there is no such system in place yet or in 1.7 or in the foreseeable known future of Dust 514 and to be honest it doesn't look like there be one feasibly materialized any time soon. CCP could do the optional refund but it would excessively stress the customer service queue and may delay other legitimate concerns such as billing, missing rewards, and other disputes.
Either way relaying the 'highly filtered' concerns to CCP and trying to get something done on a short fuse is no easy task.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier Specialist
Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
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Pvt Numnutz
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State
321
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Posted - 2013.11.26 06:44:00 -
[34] - Quote
This is how I understand it, the actual Bpos aren't the issue here. I think we can all agree they are pretty useless. The real issue is that ccp has removed these bpos from players inventory. Most people who I have seen posting feel wronged and think that ccp has a conspiracy to remove all bpos. I believe what stemmed most of this was a post by ccp logibro stating that certain packs would be removed from the market place, but bpos in players inventories would remain. This was stated before ccp had decided to remove the moduals/bpos. Ccp frame then made a post about the 4 bpos in question and how their moduals, and subsequently the bpos for those moduals were going to be removed. Many people believe this is ccp telling a lie and cheating them.
Logibros post was about the removal of packs and reassuring those who bought packs with bpos that the removal of the packs would not affect their already purchased bpos. Logibros post was truthful, the bpos werent removed. Nor were any bpos.
Ccp frame then posted about the removal of 4 specific bpos that conflicted with the vehicle rebalancing patch and that the moduals and bpos would be removed and refunded at full price.
(I really want to clear this up as they keep bringing it up as proof that ccp is going back on their word when clearly they aren't)
This made a few players very insecure about their aur and bpos. They felt that ccp could now take away all their bpos. They feel that giving a full price aur refund is not enough to compensate for ccp removing the bpos. They thought bpos would always be in their inventory no matter the changes to the game and are shocked that they too are liable to change. So they are outraged.
They were compensated for the removal. All other bpos are remaining in their inventories just like ccp said. The items they are refunding are equal to or greater than their original investment. In your case midas, it is now worth more than your initial investment. Ccp has never said anything about bpos being permanent items, if you thought they were then obviously you were wrong.
It is my opinion that ccp hasn't stepped over their bounds. They are being fair and honest with what they are doing. Items have not lost value but even gained some. Freaking out over this is pointless.
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Chesyre Armundsen
Thanes Of Dust
12
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Posted - 2013.11.26 11:03:00 -
[35] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:This is how I understand it, the actual Bpos aren't the issue here. I think we can all agree they are pretty useless. The real issue is that ccp has removed these bpos from players inventory. Most people who I have seen posting feel wronged and think that ccp has a conspiracy to remove all bpos. I believe what stemmed most of this was a post by ccp logibro stating that certain packs would be removed from the market place, but bpos in players inventories would remain. This was stated before ccp had decided to remove the moduals/bpos. Ccp frame then made a post about the 4 bpos in question and how their moduals, and subsequently the bpos for those moduals were going to be removed. Many people believe this is ccp telling a lie and cheating them.
Logibros post was about the removal of packs and reassuring those who bought packs with bpos that the removal of the packs would not affect their already purchased bpos. Logibros post was truthful, the bpos werent removed. Nor were any bpos.
Ccp frame then posted about the removal of 4 specific bpos that conflicted with the vehicle rebalancing patch and that the moduals and bpos would be removed and refunded at full price.
(I really want to clear this up as they keep bringing it up as proof that ccp is going back on their word when clearly they aren't)
This made a few players very insecure about their aur and bpos. They felt that ccp could now take away all their bpos. They feel that giving a full price aur refund is not enough to compensate for ccp removing the bpos. They thought bpos would always be in their inventory no matter the changes to the game and are shocked that they too are liable to change. So they are outraged.
They were compensated for the removal. All other bpos are remaining in their inventories just like ccp said. The items they are refunding are equal to or greater than their original investment. In your case midas, it is now worth more than your initial investment. Ccp has never said anything about bpos being permanent items, if you thought they were then obviously you were wrong.
It is my opinion that ccp hasn't stepped over their bounds. They are being fair and honest with what they are doing. Items have not lost value but even gained some. Freaking out over this is pointless.
Well said Pvt...well said. *slow clap* |
Justicar Karnellia
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State
164
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Posted - 2013.11.26 11:18:00 -
[36] - Quote
Here's my view as a long time buyer of merc packs and aurum.
- In the upcoming patch I have one module being removed (a militio vehicle BPO) and I'm getting a refund (4800 aurum I believe). Now I have no problem with the removal of the module, or the refund.
- What I DO have a problem with is that now there is little use for Aurum. There are no more BPO's on the marketplace, these were by far the best value when using aurum. There are expendable items, which I don't need, since their only use is for using items which you aren't skilled for (in itself, a weird concept since you won't be effective on the battlefield with them anyway), and this in a game where you can burn through up to 10 suits or more in a single battle, they are terrible value. It leaves boosters, which I have plenty of due to my purchases of aforementioned merc packs.
- So this leaves two acceptable options for those affected:
- Improve the aurum marketplace - more/different boosters, vanity BPO items, aurum-respecs,etc.
- Give me a BPO of the equivalent module that is replacing the deprecated one.
I think it's in CCP's best interest to improve the uses of Aurum, considering it is their primary revenue stream at work. If there is little use for the currency, what use is there buying it - which begs the question, where else do you get your revenue from in this free to play game?
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David Spd
Caldari State
108
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Posted - 2013.11.26 11:21:00 -
[37] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:*snip*
DE didn't remove the stats on the helmets that had them, and if memory serves explicitly stated they were staying on those particular helmets.
All future helmets will come without stats, though.
Unless I misunderstood and you meant hypothetical.
--> I'm a closed beta vet; I just don't post often <--
"Other people just complicate my life." ~Solid Snake
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
5332
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Posted - 2013.11.26 14:40:00 -
[38] - Quote
Justicar Karnellia wrote:Here's my view as a long time buyer of merc packs and aurum. - In the upcoming patch I have one module being removed (a militio vehicle BPO) and I'm getting a refund (4800 aurum I believe). Now I have no problem with the removal of the module, or the refund. - What I DO have a problem with is that now there is little use for Aurum. There are no more BPO's on the marketplace, these were by far the best value when using aurum. There are expendable items, which I don't need, since their only use is for using items which you aren't skilled for (in itself, a weird concept since you won't be effective on the battlefield with them anyway), and this in a game where you can burn through up to 10 suits or more in a single battle, they are terrible value. It leaves boosters, which I have plenty of due to my purchases of aforementioned merc packs. - So this leaves two acceptable options for those affected:
- Improve the aurum marketplace - more/different boosters, vanity BPO items, aurum-respecs,etc.
- Give me a BPO of the equivalent module that is replacing the deprecated one.
I think it's in CCP's best interest to improve the uses of Aurum, considering it is their primary revenue stream at work. If there is little use for the currency, what use is there buying it - which begs the question, where else do you get your revenue from in this free to play game?
In that case, is best for CCP to improve the aurum market by adding more variety such as an aurum paint bucket system that is permanent, customize our merc quarters, purchase vanity clothes from the Eve Noble Exchange store, etc.
Also, CCP can improve booster sales by implementing that SP rollover system they promised a long time ago.
If they do all this, then the aurum will become much more useful in the long run.
CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
10808
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Posted - 2013.11.27 00:58:00 -
[39] - Quote
David Spd wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:*snip* DE didn't remove the stats on the helmets that had them, and if memory serves explicitly stated they were staying on those particular helmets. All future helmets will come without stats, though. Unless I misunderstood and you meant hypothetical.
You are right and DE hasn't done anything specifically yet. Just DE continues to express the desire to remove the stats from the old helmets but allow players to be able to access those stats still and get the helmets old helmets without stats.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier Specialist
Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
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