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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
5314
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Posted - 2013.11.26 02:10:00 -
[1] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:SponkSponkSponk wrote: I can see their concern; one reason I bought the veteran pack was for the blueprints, and if those blueprints just became vanity skins for stuff I would be forced to buy with isk anyway, I would feel somewhat ripped off and justifiably so.
You are very correct in that concern, as those BPOs in the Veteran Pack were purchased directly with real world cash. If CCP were to remove those, they would likely be legally obligated to refund the cash. However because the modules in question were only purchasable with AUR and not available directly in any pack, there is no legal obligation to refund the cash for the BPOs, only the AUR used to buy the BPOs since the AUR was purchased directly. So I understand the slippery slope concern, but there is a significant difference in the BPOs you're worried about and the ones actually in question now.
Correct. The BPOs that are currently being removed are militia-level vehicle modules that were only available from the in-game market which meant that you had to purchase AUR from Sony (not CCP) first.
The problem with the assumption that these buyers are entitled to a direct cash refund or at least a PSN Store Credit is divided into two parts.
1. Sony doesn't give cash refund according to their own EULA/ToS regarding PSN account holders. Therefore PSN Store Credit is the only available option.
2. As far as Sony is concerned, you only paid money for the AUR, not for the BPOs. Sony doesn't care what you intend to do with the AUR once you bought it. If CCP refunds you all of the AUR, then as far as Sony is concerned you lost no AUR in the process and therefore Sony will not give you any PSN Store Credit. This is because according to their transaction records you paid money for the AUR directly, not the BPOs.
Of course if the BPOs were part of the merc packs that Sony was selling directly and those BPOs got removed by CCP, then Sony would give you store credit equal to the estimated value of the BPO removed such as the 'Templar' Dropsuits, 'Toxin' SMGs, and other such items that the merc packs came with. Given the complicated nature of this type of refund, CCP will be limited to removing ONLY bpo's that were never sold together with any bundle in either the PSN Store or in the Eve Second Decade Collector's Edition. Beyond that, they risk putting themselves in some serious legal bird poop.
Another reason why NOT ALL BPOs can be removed is that there are some BPOs that you don't pay for but your placed a lot of effort into earning them. 'Skinweave' dropsuit and 'Exile' Assault Rifle BPOs come to mind. There are also the recruiter rewards that feature BPOs of their own respective tier. These have no AUR value but do require immense effort to acquire. If these get removed, what possible compensation can there be for their removal? You can't calculate the AUR value because they have none and you can't measure effort on a monetary scale.
CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
5314
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Posted - 2013.11.26 02:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
SponkSponkSponk wrote:In the case where blueprints went from 25AUR to 4800AUR, CCP must make a decision whether to refund the original purchase price, the current price, or somewhere in between.
As I said, no guidance -> angst.
You can't go inbetween. Players who purchased full price will be ripped off for sure while players who purchased at discount levels will still benefit. You can't go with original price either for the same reason. CCP will have to refund at the current market price.
CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
5314
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 02:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:BPOs were cheaply priced and there seemed to be a notice that prices were to increase. Some Eve minded entrepreneurs purchased many of them in anticipation of the reset and/or player market.
I remember a post on the forums from a guy that would have had something like $15K worth of AUR if refunded or something crazy like that (prices went from like 40 AUR to 4500 if I recall correctly). That post was blued up and they quickly announced that BPOs would not be refunded.
People were talking even more crazy then as they are now. Oh man, it was insanity back then. The horror, The horror
I think it was like 4 million AUR potential profit.
CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
5317
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Posted - 2013.11.26 02:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
Audrey2 wrote:here's the problem with the aur refund...
these items were supposed to be permanent.
Maybe this is unintentional on your part, but you make it seem that the BPOs are permanent in the sense that CCP will never remove them. That is incorrect. The BPOs are permanent in the sense that the dropsuits, modules, weapons, equipment and vehicles they represent don't get consumed in battle upon your death. That is what permanent means in Dust.
CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
5317
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 02:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:
I think it was like 4 million AUR potential profit.
Dude I could have had around $800k net gain, I was hysterical at that time baahahhahaha.
You. Seriously. Bought. That much?
CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
5317
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 02:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
Gorra Snell wrote:I think there's a bit of "prolog" to this situation which might explain the intensity a bit. At EVE Vegas, a panelist received a question which, as I recall, was "are my BPO's safe"? The panelist seemed, from my perspective, to have misheard/misinterpreted the question as "are BPOs safe", to which he replied, "no". What I believe he meant was "no, we're in the process of removing them from the market." In any case, this caused a bit of a panic here on the forums, there was a bit of a threadnaught on the topic, and CCP issues a clarification that BPOs were being removed from the market only, and not from inventories. A couple of weeks later, here we are, and the BPOs in question are being removed from inventories.
That's all my attempt at impartial reporting. IMO, we've known for a while that they were paring back the vehicle module selection, and as soon as I heard that I assumed we'd be getting refunds for any BPO equivalents they removed, but hey...
Yeah, that's something I can't simply ignore. CCP did go back on their word there. And despite what all the unecessary rage that the "NO BPO REMOVAL" crowd was displaying, they still have a point in regards to CCP not keeping to their word. This wasn't the first time either. I'll give you ONE. VERY. CLEAR. EXAMPLE....
Picture it....
Jita IV - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant
Incarna releases....
RIOTS ENSUE!!! Nearly 2,000 subscriptions cancelled, 100+ employees at CCP office laid off, and Dust 514 development suffer a temporary production halt.
Why? Because CCP didn't deliver on their promise as made evident by their Incarna 1.0 expansion.
CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
5318
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 03:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
Bumping because this thread has been constructive so far.
CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
5319
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Posted - 2013.11.26 04:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
Audrey2 wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Audrey2 wrote:here's the problem with the aur refund...
these items were supposed to be permanent. Maybe this is unintentional on your part, but you make it seem that the BPOs are permanent in the sense that CCP will never remove them. That is incorrect. The BPOs are permanent in the sense that the dropsuits, modules, weapons, equipment and vehicles they represent don't get consumed in battle upon your death. That is what permanent means in Dust. so it's to be semantics? permanent is permanent... I was never given any indication that an item I bought from ccp that implied permanence would be pulled out from under my feet in such an obtuse way.... but even so, it still doesn't change the fact that confidence in their aur has dropped making it less valuable then the aur I purchased, and certainly less valuable than the bpo.
It's not about semantics. It's about context. From the moment those BPOs were first introduced back in closed beta to the moment CCP removed them from the market, it was made very clear that those BPOs, from the general understanding of the players all the way to the dev blogs, game-review sites, and beyond, were permanent in terms of having infinite supply of said item. They were permanent because they were non-consumable in the battlefield.
CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
5320
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 05:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
Audrey2 wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Audrey2 wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Audrey2 wrote:here's the problem with the aur refund...
these items were supposed to be permanent. Maybe this is unintentional on your part, but you make it seem that the BPOs are permanent in the sense that CCP will never remove them. That is incorrect. The BPOs are permanent in the sense that the dropsuits, modules, weapons, equipment and vehicles they represent don't get consumed in battle upon your death. That is what permanent means in Dust. so it's to be semantics? permanent is permanent... I was never given any indication that an item I bought from ccp that implied permanence would be pulled out from under my feet in such an obtuse way.... but even so, it still doesn't change the fact that confidence in their aur has dropped making it less valuable then the aur I purchased, and certainly less valuable than the bpo. It's not about semantics. It's about context. From the moment those BPOs were first introduced back in closed beta to the moment CCP removed them from the market, it was made very clear that those BPOs, from the general understanding of the players all the way to the dev blogs, game-review sites, and beyond, were permanent in terms of having infinite supply of said item. They were permanent because they were non-consumable in the battlefield. and remained in your inventory....and I don't remember the exact wording anymore but blueprints were described as being permanent items in your inventory. and lets face it was also always implied they were ours to keep.
You may have a point there now that you put it that way.
CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
5332
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Posted - 2013.11.26 14:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
Justicar Karnellia wrote:Here's my view as a long time buyer of merc packs and aurum. - In the upcoming patch I have one module being removed (a militio vehicle BPO) and I'm getting a refund (4800 aurum I believe). Now I have no problem with the removal of the module, or the refund. - What I DO have a problem with is that now there is little use for Aurum. There are no more BPO's on the marketplace, these were by far the best value when using aurum. There are expendable items, which I don't need, since their only use is for using items which you aren't skilled for (in itself, a weird concept since you won't be effective on the battlefield with them anyway), and this in a game where you can burn through up to 10 suits or more in a single battle, they are terrible value. It leaves boosters, which I have plenty of due to my purchases of aforementioned merc packs. - So this leaves two acceptable options for those affected:
- Improve the aurum marketplace - more/different boosters, vanity BPO items, aurum-respecs,etc.
- Give me a BPO of the equivalent module that is replacing the deprecated one.
I think it's in CCP's best interest to improve the uses of Aurum, considering it is their primary revenue stream at work. If there is little use for the currency, what use is there buying it - which begs the question, where else do you get your revenue from in this free to play game?
In that case, is best for CCP to improve the aurum market by adding more variety such as an aurum paint bucket system that is permanent, customize our merc quarters, purchase vanity clothes from the Eve Noble Exchange store, etc.
Also, CCP can improve booster sales by implementing that SP rollover system they promised a long time ago.
If they do all this, then the aurum will become much more useful in the long run.
CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
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