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Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
628
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Posted - 2013.11.24 05:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
I don't see much of it in Dust 514. That's a damn shame, considering that suppressive fire is one of the most important aspects of warfare. Let's review what suppressive fire needs in order to be effective.
1. Threat of Harm
Suppressive fire needs present a threat of harm, otherwise it doesn't work. Suppressive fire needs to suppress the enemy, but not necessarily kill them. This can sometimes be difficult to achieve. The weapon in question would need to cause more threat of harm than it causes actual harm. This isn't easy to achieve, as you can imagine. However, it has been done before in Dust 514. Take the Laser Rifle, for example. Due to its unique nature of doing more damage the longer you fire it, it discourages you from continuing what you are doing. It makes you want to run for cover. At first, it doesn't cause too much harm, but it is very threatening. This is an example of Threat of Harm done right. Mass Drivers are also an example of this. Heavy Machine Guns used to have this, but now they have less of it than most Assault Rifles.
2. Superior Range
Suppressive fire needs to have better range than what you are suppressing, otherwise the enemy wouldn't take cover, they would just get out of range and suppress you in turn. I'm not saying a suppressive fire weapon needs to have sniper-like range, but it should at least have range around equal to its target. The Laser Rifle used to have this, but it has lost most of its range superiority. Mass Drivers lose much of their potential at longer ranges, as well, because the projectiles are slow and require significant skill to get the arc right at long range. Heavy Machine Guns lack this entirely. All AR-type weapons vastly outrange them, which are the most common weapon type. Poor HMGs.
3. Continuous Fire
Suppressive fire needs to be able to put heat down on the enemy continuously. Laser Rifles do not succeed at this. They can fire continuously, yes, but due to heat production and relatively low ammo, they cannot sustain this continuous fire for long periods of time. Mass Drivers also fail at this. Clip size is low, ammo capacity is almost non-existent, and reloading is too often and takes too long for effective continuous fire. This is the absolute only category that HMGs actually succeed at, but it is most definitely not
Now, I'm not saying that these weapons should be buffed (LRs and HMGs do need it, though), I'm just saying that the role of suppressive fire is highly neglected and that there are pretty much no weapons designed for that role that actually succeed in it. You might say that it's impossible for a weapon to succeed in this role without being overpowered. That's not exactly true. There are ways to reduce a weapon's effectiveness without reducing threat, range and continuous fire.
Note: Weapons that aren't designed for suppressive fire can still be used for it. Assault Rifles, for example, can provide suppressive fire, but I think we can all agree that they can pretty much do anything.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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DeadlyAztec11
Gallente Federation
2226
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Posted - 2013.11.24 05:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
Use a Breach AR. It shoots slow enough you can shoot for a while before having to reload, yet punishes the enemy for daring to stand still or even peak their head out.
Also, this belongs in the training grounds.
Madness is the emergency exit. You can just step outside, and close the door on all those dreadful things that happened.
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Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
628
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Posted - 2013.11.24 05:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Also, this belongs in the training grounds.
No it doesn't! It's feedback directed towards CCP.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Ulysses Knapse
Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm
817
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Posted - 2013.12.20 05:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Bump.
What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage?
The pile of garbage looks nicer.
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Cosgar
ParagonX
8928
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Posted - 2013.12.20 05:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
The Mass Driver used to have a suppression effect while kicking up smoke and debris. People cried until it was nerfed.
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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FrozenChaos
The Neutral Zone
24
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Posted - 2013.12.20 07:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
A chain lightning-ish weapon would be awesome for that especialy if it had a stunning or slowing effect |
Spectral Clone
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
967
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Posted - 2013.12.20 13:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Non-existent due to the low TTK. If you supress something, you kill it.
Doesnt matter in Dust 514: PC. FW Standing. Tanking Type. Other mods than DMG or HP.
Does matter in Dust 514: Rifles.
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Ulysses Knapse
Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm
836
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Posted - 2013.12.20 14:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:Non-existent due to the low TTK. If you supress something, you kill it.
It's true that low TTK does make suppressive fire harder to balance, it doesn't make it impossible to exist...
What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage?
The pile of garbage looks nicer.
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Paran Tadec
Imperfect Bastards
1795
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Posted - 2013.12.20 18:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
Threat of harm doesn't really exist when you can near instantaneously bee transferred to a fresh clone body.
Bittervet Proficiency V
thanks logibro!
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Ulysses Knapse
Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm
843
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Posted - 2013.12.20 18:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
Paran Tadec wrote:Threat of harm doesn't really exist when you can near instantaneously bee transferred to a fresh clone body.
Do you like losing a 100,000 ISK dropsuit and being forced to respawn? I don't think anyone does.
What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage?
The pile of garbage looks nicer.
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CLONE117
planetary retaliation organisation
527
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Posted - 2013.12.20 19:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
ive been pined down in a box before by scramblers
low on ammo.. yelling for help in a mlt heavy suit with adv ar.
every time i tried to take a peak 100 rounds flew at me...
i just ended up playing the waiting game then 1 or 2 players came up to try and kill me and i dispatched them rather quickly.
i waited in that box for so long. it had to have been the longest i have ever held out against a much larger enemy force or stayed in 1 spot.
then there was another match where i suppressed a large group of players during a domination map with a blaster tank. i just continually spammed rounds getting a few hits and kills on some of them. when i left to resupply they were swarming the objective. so i pushed them back and "suppressed" them again..
ive also managed to temporally suppress a few players with an hmg long enough to move up and maul them to death.
i think the only ppl that suppressive fire doesnt affect r those that have a suicidal playstyle. |
lee corwood
Knights Of Ender
Public Disorder.
57
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Posted - 2013.12.20 20:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:The Mass Driver used to have a suppression effect while kicking up smoke and debris. People cried until it was nerfed.
My Freedom Mass Driver has so much dust on it right now, I'd have to dig it out.
Minmatar Logisis | Heavy lover. Come get some badass Band-Aids from this chick
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Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
617
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Posted - 2013.12.20 21:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
This is the main reason to throw Nano Hives at people atm, suppressing both teams abilities to operate under Lag. If you do it right, every pulse of a nanohive will slow down and speed up frame rates so you can squeeze your trigger as the enemy is coming around the corner.
LogiGod earns his pips
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lee corwood
Knights Of Ender
Public Disorder.
59
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Posted - 2013.12.20 23:14:00 -
[14] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:This is the main reason to throw Nano Hives at people atm, suppressing both teams abilities to operate under Lag. If you do it right, every pulse of a nanohive will slow down and speed up frame rates so you can squeeze your trigger as the enemy is coming around the corner.
No offense, but that's not how I want to win...
Minmatar Logisis | Heavy lover. Come get some badass Band-Aids from this chick
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Artificer Ghost
Bojo's School of the Trades
738
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Posted - 2013.12.21 00:01:00 -
[15] - Quote
lee corwood wrote:Cosgar wrote:The Mass Driver used to have a suppression effect while kicking up smoke and debris. People cried until it was nerfed. My Freedom Mass Driver has so much dust on it right now, I'd have to dig it out.
Was that a dust pun? Get out of here, dad, no one likes your dad jokes. >:|
~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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lee corwood
Knights Of Ender
Public Disorder.
61
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Posted - 2013.12.21 00:14:00 -
[16] - Quote
Artificer Ghost wrote:lee corwood wrote:Cosgar wrote:The Mass Driver used to have a suppression effect while kicking up smoke and debris. People cried until it was nerfed. My Freedom Mass Driver has so much dust on it right now, I'd have to dig it out. Was that a dust pun? Get out of here, dad, no one likes your dad jokes. >:|
My dust weapon is collecting dust, har har. Actually I'm lame and that totally went over my head until you pointed it out...
Minmatar Logisis | Heavy lover. Come get some badass Band-Aids from this chick
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Ulysses Knapse
Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm
846
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Posted - 2013.12.21 00:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
Artificer Ghost wrote:lee corwood wrote:Cosgar wrote:The Mass Driver used to have a suppression effect while kicking up smoke and debris. People cried until it was nerfed. My Freedom Mass Driver has so much dust on it right now, I'd have to dig it out. Was that a dust pun? Get out of here, dad, no one likes your dad jokes. >:|
Wow, that wasn't punny it at all. It was just kind of sad.
What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage?
The pile of garbage looks nicer.
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Dominus Fatali
Nox Aeterna Security
704
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Posted - 2013.12.23 22:58:00 -
[18] - Quote
I have, at times, been able to use a SMG in order to keep enemies at bay. Fire a few rounds when they poke their head out, they hide again. This is mostly what I use my Breach SMG for, in addition to killing equipment.
Long Live Freedom; Long Live the Federation.
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Eko Sol
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
1
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Posted - 2013.12.24 00:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
Can't have this until a grenade can practically do it. If you aren't going to do things like smoke grenades or flash grenades then it doesn't make sense to have suppressive fire. |
John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
League of Infamy
820
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Posted - 2013.12.24 00:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
The LR used to excel at suppressive fire. Like you say, the threat of harm has to be there.
When I first started playing it was like, f*ck, an LR! Run away! Run away!
Then from 1.0 to around 1.4 it was: lol that tickles.
1.4 it got better, maybe due to so much shield tanking? Not super deadly but enough of a threat that suppressive fire was almost it's most valuable property.
Then hit detection got fixed and the RR came out and well you know..
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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Kharga Lum
Xeno Labs Security
179
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Posted - 2013.12.24 07:25:00 -
[21] - Quote
Laser rifle. It has good range, is VERY visible and people just love to run away from it. |
Ulysses Knapse
Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm
875
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Posted - 2013.12.24 07:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
Kharga Lum wrote:Laser rifle. It has good range, is VERY visible and people just love to run away from it.
Wow, it's like you didn't even read my post.
What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage?
The pile of garbage looks nicer.
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The-Errorist
Closed For Business
For All Mankind
417
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Posted - 2013.12.27 00:32:00 -
[23] - Quote
Kharga Lum wrote:Laser rifle. It has good range, is VERY visible and people just love to run away from it.
People love to run closer to the person firing it while shooting their superior range and DPS weapon that does better damage at all ranges, compared to the LR.
Also Ulysses Knapse, the HMG is perfect now, it doesn't need another buff. |
Alam Storm
Third Rock From The Sun
INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS
43
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Posted - 2013.12.27 08:14:00 -
[24] - Quote
reading this makes me think you want the laser to be unnerved or to be able to shoot further or something :) |
Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
634
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Posted - 2013.12.27 08:19:00 -
[25] - Quote
lee corwood wrote:Draco Cerberus wrote:This is the main reason to throw Nano Hives at people atm, suppressing both teams abilities to operate under Lag. If you do it right, every pulse of a nanohive will slow down and speed up frame rates so you can squeeze your trigger as the enemy is coming around the corner. No offense, but that's not how I want to win...
It's not how I want to win either, the first step in stopping spam lag is to stop doing it yourself. The second and third steps are a little harder, destroying enemy equipment and not bringing that type of equipment when the spam is already thick.
LogiGod earns his pips
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
5082
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Posted - 2013.12.27 08:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:The Mass Driver used to have a suppression effect while kicking up smoke and debris. People cried until it was nerfed.
Nah, I think people cried because it was highly effective at killing IN ADDITION to that suppressing effect 
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
League of Infamy
1404
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Posted - 2013.12.27 13:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:Kharga Lum wrote:Laser rifle. It has good range, is VERY visible and people just love to run away from it. Wow, it's like you didn't even read my post.
Or mine.
And yes, buff the damn LR already. Make it super long range like an Amarr sniper rifle. 100m optimal! Or, maybe a little shorter but widen the optimal and increase range and damage across tiers. Even the old viziam wouldn't be terribly OP now considering the RR.
The weapon is pointless now.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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Ivy Zalinto
Lo-Tech Solutions Ltd
218
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Posted - 2013.12.27 14:32:00 -
[28] - Quote
Suppression fire works on my scout all the time...the boxes are my friends.
Dedicated Stealth Scout.
Scout instructor; Learning Coalition
Scrambler Pistol dedication
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Ulysses Knapse
Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm
901
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Posted - 2013.12.28 02:03:00 -
[29] - Quote
The-Errorist wrote:Also Ulysses Knapse, the HMG is perfect now, it doesn't need another buff.
I made this thread back in November, when the HMG was terribad.
Not that it matters. It's still terrible at suppressive fire. HMG needs total rework. 
What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage?
The pile of garbage is more lethal.
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