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DPS calculations for the new Assault Rifles

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Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 3865	Posted - 2013.11.22 14:45:00 - [1] - Quote Some numbers: Old: Duvolle: 467.5 - Effective range: 78 - Clip size: 60 ASCR: 466.5 - Effective range: 84 - Clip size: 72 New: Assault Combat Rifle: 464 - Effective range: 84 - Clip size: 64 Assault Rail Rifle: 471.9 - Effective range: 102 - Clip size: 42 Note: Rail Rifle has 0.25 charge up time, dropping the DPS to 353.25 for the first second. Some facts: ARR has extremely tight hip fire ASCR has tighter hip fire than duvolle ACR is going to be very accurate according to wolfman on IRC ACR has -5% against shields and +10% against armor. It is the only AR with non symmetrical damage application model. My analysis: Judging from these numbers, Duvolle is the weakest in the package. Yes ARR has charge up time, but the thing has 102 effective range for cats sake. It also hits like a brick. And laser rifle is going to be useless Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Doc Noah Algintal Core Gallente Federation 878	Posted - 2013.11.22 14:47:00 - [2] - Quote Kinda sad that the weapon with the lowest range doesnt really have any advantages.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 3865	Posted - 2013.11.22 14:50:00 - [3] - Quote Doc Noah wrote: Kinda sad that the weapon with the lowest range doesnt really have any advantages. Pretty much. The AR nerf brigade got what they wanted. The AR is now useless, though I bet they didn't expect CCP to make even better AR's to do that :P Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Daxxis KANNAH Distinct Covert Initiative 457	Posted - 2013.11.22 14:54:00 - [4] - Quote The AScR will actually have an effective range of 90 Also if the ACR is going to be "very" accurate, why have sharpshooter? Or that is with SS skilled? Still think most engagements will be inside these ranges and this was the plan from the get go; unless you guys want even more DMG on the AR's ?
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 3865	Posted - 2013.11.22 14:57:00 - [5] - Quote Daxxis KANNAH wrote: The AScR will actually have an effective range of 90 Also if the ACR is going to be "very" accurate, why have sharpshooter? Or that is with SS skilled? Still think most engagements will be inside these ranges and this was the plan from the get go; unless you guys want even more DMG on the AR's ? Daxxis, I'm taking this from the new weapons dev blog, it's 84. ACR is going to have almost no recoil, that's what wolfman said. Don't understand your last point. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Mac Dac Wraith Shadow Guards 271	Posted - 2013.11.22 15:02:00 - [6] - Quote Just tell me which one is the best, so i can abuse it. "We should take care not to make intellect our god; it has, of course, strong muscles, but no personality" Albert Einste
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7895	Posted - 2013.11.22 15:02:00 - [7] - Quote Hey, they finally listened to us! They nerfed the AR! By introducing....stronger....ARs...... Read / Vid / Stream
Rasatsu Much Crying Old Experts 920	Posted - 2013.11.22 15:18:00 - [8] - Quote Hello, I am a DUST EFT warrior and I post threads like this without ever having flown... errr... driven... errr... Walked in the shoes of a clone holding these weapons.
Daxxis KANNAH Distinct Covert Initiative 457	Posted - 2013.11.22 15:21:00 - [9] - Quote Where is the dev blog? - I was going off of the one they posted up weeks ago so apologies. On the last point - We knew the Gallente AR was supposed to have the least range, I was asking if you guys want even higher damage output to separate it or maybe a higher ROF? DPS only really matters if all shots hit - The AR will still hit harder in a face up engagement than the ACR if both parties are trying to evade. The AScR and the AR should be comparable. The only other point, it is my opinion that engagements will most likely occur inside of these ranges (making all of them hit at optimal damage) unless the scopes of the rifles are upgraded, in this case that only applies to the AScR as that is the only auto with a scope. I could be wrong so it goes.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 3869	Posted - 2013.11.22 15:24:00 - [10] - Quote Daxxis KANNAH wrote: Where is the dev blog? - I was going off of the one they posted up weeks ago so apologies. On the last point - We knew the Gallente AR was supposed to have the least range, I was asking if you guys want even higher damage output to separate it or maybe a higher ROF? DPS only really matters if all shots hit - The AR will still hit harder in a face up engagement than the ACR if both parties are trying to evade. The AScR and the AR should be comparable. The only other point, it is my opinion that engagements will most likely occur inside of these ranges (making all of them hit at optimal damage) unless the scopes of the rifles are upgraded, in this case that only applies to the AScR as that is the only auto with a scope. I could be wrong so it goes. Damage: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1499039#post1499039 Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.

Cody Sietz Unkn0wn Killers Renegade Alliance 1512	Posted - 2013.11.22 15:25:00 - [11] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Doc Noah wrote: Kinda sad that the weapon with the lowest range doesnt really have any advantages. Pretty much. The AR nerf brigade got what they wanted. The AR is now useless, though I bet they didn't expect CCP to make even better AR's to do that :P I need awhile ago that when they drop the range on the AR give it some close range at vantage over the AScR but every shouted "YOU WANT MOAR BUFFS!?" I said "No, I want it to be a close range, high RoF high dmg weapon(like a good version of the breach) People do not care about balance...until it happens to their weapon.
Daxxis KANNAH Distinct Covert Initiative 457	Posted - 2013.11.22 15:30:00 - [12] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Daxxis KANNAH wrote: The AScR will actually have an effective range of 90 Also if the ACR is going to be "very" accurate, why have sharpshooter? Or that is with SS skilled? Still think most engagements will be inside these ranges and this was the plan from the get go; unless you guys want even more DMG on the AR's ? Daxxis, I'm taking this from the new weapons dev blog, it's 84. ACR is going to have almost no recoil, that's what wolfman said. Don't understand your last point. Nope - effective range on Proto AScR - 90 effective range on Proto ACR - 84 effective range on Proto AR - 78 effective on Proto ARR - 102 - this doesnt even line up with their description but what else is new.
Cody Sietz Unkn0wn Killers Renegade Alliance 1514	Posted - 2013.11.22 15:34:00 - [13] - Quote God, is it obvious that I'm Hungover and lost my phone. Knock off android tablets suck.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1798	Posted - 2013.11.22 15:35:00 - [14] - Quote You are kind of overlooking fitting in your analysis (before core/weapon fitting skills). Duvolle AR: 90 CPU/ 13 PG Boundless CR: 81 CPU/ 8 PG Duvolle AR on lvl 5 gallente assault: 67.5 CPU/ 9.75 PG yeah, -13 CPU isn't a ton of benefit but it may make the difference between a ADV vs. PRO grenade or ADV vs. PRO damage mod. Also, how do you know how fast the Combat rifle is firing between bursts? Also isn't AR ADS dispersion better than the ASCR dispersion? That's a +1 for AR in my book, especially at close range. Finally, don't forget that you are listing both max DPS and effective range. You only get 30% of max DPS at the effective range.
Daxxis KANNAH Distinct Covert Initiative 458	Posted - 2013.11.22 15:41:00 - [15] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Damage: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1499039#post1499039 I actually "liked" that post previously. Personally I would give the AR more damage or reduce the damage on all other rifles if the effective range of the AR is brought much closer to its optimal range. Making it more like the blasters it is supposed to be. Edit: @Beren Hurin - I think Op is comparing full autos not burst. That is Proto AR vs Prof 1 ACR vs Prof 1 AScR
Cody Sietz Unkn0wn Killers Renegade Alliance 1514	Posted - 2013.11.22 15:42:00 - [16] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: You are kind of overlooking fitting in your analysis (before core/weapon fitting skills). Duvolle AR: 90 CPU/ 13 PG Boundless CR: 81 CPU/ 8 PG Duvolle AR on lvl 5 gallente assault: 67.5 CPU/ 9.75 PG yeah, -13 CPU isn't a ton of benefit but it may make the difference between a ADV vs. PRO grenade or ADV vs. PRO damage mod. Also, how do you know how fast the Combat rifle is firing between bursts? Also isn't AR ADS dispersion better than the ASCR dispersion? That's a +1 for AR in my book, especially at close range. Finally, don't forget that you are listing both max DPS and effective range. You only get 30% of max DPS at the effective range. Yeah, but are kind of forces between the AR and Rail rifle(hybrid weapons) since we have the lowest CPU/PG of the other assault suits(Caldari have the same stats as well) Not a complaint because I like my Gallente tech, but it kind of sucks that our weapon will be outmatched in most situations with other rifles but never see a real advantage.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1799	Posted - 2013.11.22 15:50:00 - [17] - Quote The other analysis that you'll want to think about too, is weapon + suit matchups. Ideally, all rifles will be MOST bonused with their same race assault suits. An Duvolle AR + Gallente assault with a good chunk of armor, and some shield, vs. a minmatar combat rifle with minnie assault mostly shield and very low armor would be an interesting matchup. Both would be bonused +10% against each other's main source of HP, but the minmatar would have to shoot through it's slightly penalized HP first, additionally, it has to shoot through the quickly regenerating HP, while the gallente immediately shoots through its bonused HP with its plasma. The gallente suit would, more than likely have greater armor HP to shoot through than the minmatar would have shield. IOW: An anti shield DPS weapon with +10% bonus to shield is likely more effective against shield suits than an anti armor +10% weapon vs. armor suits with the same DPS. This is because armor suits are more likely to have more than 10% more armor HP than a shield has shield HP. Another way of saying it is, there is significantly more armor to shoot through across all suits (all varieties, not populations). An AR vs. a shield suit still will likely be better than a CR vs. an armor suit (because of HP amount) in most situations. Then if you think about how most people are still running shield suits this gives AR (and ASCR) a leg up, IMO. So lets move this conversation into fits before we act like guns just shoot themselves on the battlefield...
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 3873	Posted - 2013.11.22 15:58:00 - [18] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: You are kind of overlooking fitting in your analysis (before core/weapon fitting skills). Duvolle AR: 90 CPU/ 13 PG Boundless CR: 81 CPU/ 8 PG Duvolle AR on lvl 5 gallente assault: 67.5 CPU/ 9.75 PG yeah, -13 CPU isn't a ton of benefit but it may make the difference between a ADV vs. PRO grenade or ADV vs. PRO damage mod. Also, how do you know how fast the Combat rifle is firing between bursts? Also isn't AR ADS dispersion better than the ASCR dispersion? That's a +1 for AR in my book, especially at close range. Finally, don't forget that you are listing both max DPS and effective range. You only get 30% of max DPS at the effective range. That's with gal ass VoV And Assault CR is full auto. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 257	Posted - 2013.11.22 16:21:00 - [19] - Quote Daxxis KANNAH wrote: The AScR will actually have an effective range of 90 Also if the ACR is going to be "very" accurate, why have sharpshooter? Or that is with SS skilled? Still think most engagements will be inside these ranges and this was the plan from the get go; unless you guys want even more DMG on the AR's ? The AR should get a DPS advantage as tradeoff for the shorter range. This could be archieved by buffing the AR (rof or damage), or deucing the DPS potential of the other rifles.
Daxxis KANNAH Distinct Covert Initiative 458	Posted - 2013.11.22 16:39:00 - [20] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: The AR should get a DPS advantage as tradeoff for the shorter range. This could be archieved by buffing the AR (rof or damage), or deucing the DPS potential of the other rifles. Agree in principle but as I have stated unless the effective range is reduced you cant up the DPS. Reading on from the dev blog CCP maintains that their mechanic of more varied ranges wont work well in an FPS so that is the reason the ranges are slightly different - 6m isnt that much and the AR does have DPS (going by Cat's figures) edge and the higher dmg per round as well (not counting the RR as that has charge time plus much kick and probably harder to hip fire) Lets see how they shake out. What could be interesting is the optimal ranges - 48 AR vs 60 AScR vs 78 RR but given how AR's are shredding laser and sniper users now, doing less than optimal damage will not worry players with good gun game.

pdiddy anfama KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 83	Posted - 2013.11.22 16:50:00 - [21] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Some numbers: Old: Duvolle: 467.5 - Effective range: 78 - Clip size: 60 ASCR: 466.5 - Effective range: 84 - Clip size: 72 New: Assault Combat Rifle: 464 - Effective range: 84 - Clip size: 64 Assault Rail Rifle: 471.9 - Effective range: 102 - Clip size: 42 Note: Rail Rifle has 0.25 charge up time, dropping the DPS to 353.25 for the first second. Some facts: ARR has extremely tight hip fire ASCR has tighter hip fire than duvolle ACR is going to be very accurate according to wolfman on IRC ACR has -5% against shields and +10% against armor. It is the only AR with non symmetrical damage application model. My analysis: Judging from these numbers, Duvolle is the weakest in the package. Yes ARR has charge up time, but the thing has 102 effective range for cats sake. It also hits like a brick. And laser rifle is going to be useless Thank you for the numbers.
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis 2376	Posted - 2013.11.22 16:51:00 - [22] - Quote Won't care as long as Shotguns and HMGs can beat Rifles in CQC come 1.7. Hope that's not too much to ask.
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 1900	Posted - 2013.11.22 16:55:00 - [23] - Quote Shouldn't you be comparing the primary version of each weapon family? The assault variant is supposed to be a weak copy of the Gallente Assault Rifle. // Logistics / Scout / Dropship Pilot Trainee // https://twitter.com/reesnoturana
Cody Sietz Unkn0wn Killers Renegade Alliance 1515	Posted - 2013.11.22 17:03:00 - [24] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: Shouldn't you be comparing the primary version of each weapon family? The assault variant is supposed to be a weak copy of the Gallente Assault Rifle. Then you'd have to compare the breach AR to the rail rifle. The TAC to the ScR. And the burst to the CR. The only weapon that seems comparable is the burst rifle, because as of right now, the other AR varients suck while the AScR is just as good as the AR.
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 1893	Posted - 2013.11.22 17:04:00 - [25] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Some numbers: Old: Duvolle: 467.5 - Effective range: 78 - Clip size: 60 ASCR: 466.5 - Effective range: 84 - Clip size: 72 New: Assault Combat Rifle: 464 - Effective range: 84 - Clip size: 64 Assault Rail Rifle: 471.9 - Effective range: 102 - Clip size: 42 Note: Rail Rifle has 0.25 charge up time, dropping the DPS to 353.25 for the first second. Some facts: ARR has extremely tight hip fire ASCR has tighter hip fire than duvolle ACR is going to be very accurate according to wolfman on IRC ACR has -5% against shields and +10% against armor. It is the only AR with non symmetrical damage application model. My analysis: Judging from these numbers, Duvolle is the weakest in the package. Yes ARR has charge up time, but the thing has 102 effective range for cats sake. It also hits like a brick. And laser rifle is going to be useless You dont gain 10% more damage versus armor. You gain the same amount of bonus as you loose on the opposite. So it would be 5%. Making it 95-105% damage profile (shields-armor). I shall show you a world, a world which you cant imagine, a world full off butthurt n00bs at the other end of my gun
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 3883	Posted - 2013.11.22 17:24:00 - [26] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Some numbers: Old: Duvolle: 467.5 - Effective range: 78 - Clip size: 60 ASCR: 466.5 - Effective range: 84 - Clip size: 72 New: Assault Combat Rifle: 464 - Effective range: 84 - Clip size: 64 Assault Rail Rifle: 471.9 - Effective range: 102 - Clip size: 42 Note: Rail Rifle has 0.25 charge up time, dropping the DPS to 353.25 for the first second. Some facts: ARR has extremely tight hip fire ASCR has tighter hip fire than duvolle ACR is going to be very accurate according to wolfman on IRC ACR has -5% against shields and +10% against armor. It is the only AR with non symmetrical damage application model. My analysis: Judging from these numbers, Duvolle is the weakest in the package. Yes ARR has charge up time, but the thing has 102 effective range for cats sake. It also hits like a brick. And laser rifle is going to be useless You dont gain 10% more damage versus armor. You gain the same amount of bonus as you loose on the opposite. So it would be 5%. Making it 95-105% damage profile (shields-armor). Check out the blog yourself. 10 to armor, -5 to shields. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Heinrich Jagerblitzen D3LTA FORC3 1076	Posted - 2013.11.22 17:44:00 - [27] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: Hello, I am a DUST EFT warrior and I post threads like this without ever having flown... errr... driven... errr... Walked in the shoes of a clone holding these weapons. Favorite post of the week. I was just talking to Cat about EFT and its perils this morning, actually. I hope to god the Dust community doesn't follow in those footsteps.
Mordecai Sanguine What The French 139	Posted - 2013.11.22 18:00:00 - [28] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Some numbers: Old: Duvolle: 467.5 - Effective range: 78 - Clip size: 60 ASCR: 466.5 - Effective range: 84 - Clip size: 72 New: Assault Combat Rifle: 464 - Effective range: 84 - Clip size: 64 Assault Rail Rifle: 471.9 - Effective range: 102 - Clip size: 42 Note: Rail Rifle has 0.25 charge up time, dropping the DPS to 353.25 for the first second. Some facts: ARR has extremely tight hip fire ASCR has tighter hip fire than duvolle ACR is going to be very accurate according to wolfman on IRC ACR has -5% against shields and +10% against armor. It is the only AR with non symmetrical damage application model. My analysis: Judging from these numbers, Duvolle is the weakest in the package. Yes ARR has charge up time, but the thing has 102 effective range for cats sake. It also hits like a brick. And laser rifle is going to be useless Duvolle is fully automatic with no charge Up and takes not that much on PG/CPU (Vs ASCR). Duvolle has no recoil and spread. I think they're all pretty balanced each others. But all of these are damn **** up and will be ***** OP. Duvolle and ASCR is already totally OP since hit detection and kill everybody in 2-3 sec MAX with bad aim...... Aim assist is totally abused. And the 2 new weapons are maded to be balanced against Duvolle and ASCR.....so they will also be OP.... The DPS is damn too high. (Seriously 450/500 of DPS WITHOUT damager or proficiency) means killing an Heavy or a fully tanked player in 3 sec..... The actual DPS just killed the "tanking" meaning.....
Ryme Intrinseca Seraphim Auxiliaries 270	Posted - 2013.11.22 18:08:00 - [29] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Some numbers: Old: Duvolle: 467.5 - Effective range: 78 - Clip size: 60 ASCR: 466.5 - Effective range: 84 - Clip size: 72 New: Assault Combat Rifle: 464 - Effective range: 84 - Clip size: 64 Assault Rail Rifle: 471.9 - Effective range: 102 - Clip size: 42 Note: Rail Rifle has 0.25 charge up time, dropping the DPS to 353.25 for the first second. Some facts: ARR has extremely tight hip fire ASCR has tighter hip fire than duvolle ACR is going to be very accurate according to wolfman on IRC ACR has -5% against shields and +10% against armor. It is the only AR with non symmetrical damage application model. My analysis: Judging from these numbers, Duvolle is the weakest in the package. Yes ARR has charge up time, but the thing has 102 effective range for cats sake. It also hits like a brick. The ACR has around a third less damage in each clip, and much less total ammo damage, than the other rifles. The range is reasonable and second highest DPS (after ScR) once you factor in the damage model. But I expect the standard CR will be a better option as its damage per clip and total ammo damage are better (though still on the low side). The ARR is trash - same clip size and total ammo as the standard variant, but less damage per round. It also has an ironsight, which is criminal for a weapon with that range. The standard version of the RR, by contrast, has a lot of damage in the clip and in total plus better sights. TL;DR the standard variants are probably better than the assault variants.
Flix Keptick Red Star. EoN. 1314	Posted - 2013.11.22 18:19:00 - [30] - Quote The game is going to be completely unplayable :( "Please don't" GÿåForum warrior lvl.1Gÿå I Support SP Rollover, MAKE IT HAPPEN CCP !!!



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