DUST Search - ADS Reports - Ch2 Defining Roles of the Battlefield

Pokey Dravon wrote:

Oswald Rehnquist wrote:

I'll let other people cover your logis (I know what people are going to say but I don't play them), but your scouts are all screwed up lol, and I'd take a gander that you don't play them

First thing to cover is the redundancy of passive and active scanning (why have good passive scanning when you are also forcing active scanning on them), and you literally tied half of the scouts to one equipment item (not even the logis got shafted that hard). Then you pretty much tied the caldari scout to the sniper (despite the fact that hit direction is given and people don't use noise but sight, and anything sneaking up pops up on your passive scanner), and you are keeping the minmatar tied to the nova knife.

No one would use the scout under these constructs, if you are looking for vanilla bonuses then go to the logical suit suit stat boosting and hope for items that evolve around it or if you are going to go with the more complex, active modules for debuff and utility purposes are where the scout needs to go. If you are going to invent mechanics for the game, make them more useful and broad than a "noise" factor.

Well this is primarily an opinion piece and should be evaluated as such. I covered some of your concerns in the notes regarding Scouts but I'm sorry if you disagree with my opinion on how Scouts should operate. I would like to rework some of those bonuses with the addition of a more combat oriented Light frame which would suit the combat style that people are currently using Scouts. The reason I went with the Active Scanner is because I view Scouts as the role that specifically gathers information, and because passive scans are no longer shared on Tacnet, I felt this was the obvious choice. Also I don't feel that the Active Scanner bonus is redundant, are you misreading the Role Bonus skill?

Pages: [1] :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1027	Posted - 2013.11.22 06:41:00 - [1] - Quote I highly suggest you download the PDF available here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6Pqc0ScXKN7UHpubFdPQ0xVaGM/edit?usp=sharing The PDF is much easier on the eyes than the forums here and includes images and reference links. However GoogleDocs does not display everything properly, so I suggest actually downloading the file for best results. EVE DUST514 ADS Reports Analysis - Discussion - Suggestions By Pokey Dravon CHAPTER II Defining Roles of the Battlefield O V E R V I E W Much like Racial Themes, defining Roles on the Battlefield is crucial to unify and organize concepts within Dust514. Unfortunately due to the lack of racial variants for all unit types, many of the bonuses and attributes of various roles have been filled with 'placeholders'. These placeholders have given certain roles an unintended advantage over other roles, and made other roles nearly obsolete. It is critical that a clear description for each role be defined such that current and future content can be reworked and designed around these key concepts. S C O P E This document will define each role on the battlefield and then cross that role with each racial variant, using the racial themes outlined in the previous chapter. This creates unique combinations that are loyal to both the racial themes and the roles themselves. This document addresses many issues that players currently experience with some roles feeling obsolete as well encouraging certain roles to play as they were originally intended. The concepts discussed in this report will form the foundation for existing and future content, as well as future reports. This report will focus specifically on dropsuits, and while these concepts will be applied to vehicles as well, that discussion will be covered in a later report. As before, I will be avoiding using absolute numbers as this document's focus is conceptual only. This report is primarily based on personal opinion and suggestions collected from the community. A S S A U L T The Assault role is the bread and butter of any first person shooter. Generally speaking, the largest portion of any team plays the Assault role, as it is generally the most flexible. To start off lets look at the actual definition of the word: assault n. 1. A violent physical or verbal attack 2. A military attack, such as one launched against a fortified area or place Therefore the main focus of Assaults should be attacking objectives and neutralizing the enemy. They need to be flexible with decent defense and speed, but the main focus should always be attacking. The largest issue with Assaults right now is that there is little which sets them apart from similar roles, and in most cases they are actually inferior is nearly every way. While there is much debate about this, I feel that the Assaults need better incentives to be used as an assault class. Because of this, I propose that all Assault suits get a small bonus to Light and Sidearm weapon damage per level. In addition, because I feel damage inflation is already running rampant, all light and sidearm damage should be decreased by an equivalent amount to the Assault's bonus at level 5. This effectively means that Assaults at level 5 will be able to do the same amount of damage as they're doing now, where other suits will see a decrease in damage output. This is turn will make Assault suits the best choice for general purpose attack units. Specific racial bonuses should also provide bonuses to attack, specifically supporting the racial weapon types that match the suit as well as the playstyle outlined in the Racial Themes from the previous report. Caldari Assault Because the Caldari use long range weapons, the bonus should further increase the effectiveness of weapons at long range. Because of this, Caldari Assault suits should receive a bonus which further reduces the dispersion of weapons fire. This optimizes accuracy for Caldari Weapons and assures that Caldari Assaults dominate at long range. Gallente Assault Gallente fight generally fight in close range, high speed situations. Because of this, their bonus should further support this close quarters combat by reducing the recoil of Gallente weapons. This allows hip fire at close range allowing the Gallente Assaults to be even more proficient at close range. Amarr Assault The biggest limiting factor for Amarr weaponry is heat management in their Laser and Scrambler weapons. The Amarr Assault suit should provide a bonus to decrease the rate at which heat builds up in their Amarr weapons, allowing them to stay in the fight longer. Minmatar Assault I actually found this one to be the most difficult to decide upon. Minmatar Assaults should be focused on hit and run tactics, and while the ability to quickly reload would make sense for this, I felt its not enough of an incentive compared to the other Assault bonuses. As such I propose that the Minmatar Assault receive an increase in magazine size for all Minmatar weapons. Assault Role Summary Assault Role Bonus: +% to Light and Sidearm weapon damage / Lvl Reduce all Light and Sidearm damage by equivalent amount so Lvl 5 Assaults do the same damage as they do now. Caldari Assault Bonus: +% reduction to Caldari weapon dispersion / Lvl Gallente Assault Bonus: +% reduction to Gallente weapon recoil / Lvl Amarr Assault Bonus: +% reduction to heat buildup for Amarr weapons / Lvl Minmatar Assault Bonus: +% to Minmatar weapon magazine size / Lvl ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1027	Posted - 2013.11.22 06:41:00 - [2] - Quote L O G I S T I C S The Logistics role is one of great controversy within the community and in need of significant reworking. Lets start off by trying to define what the word 'logistics' actually means: logistics n. 1. The aspect of military operations that deals with the procurement, distribution, maintenance, and replacement of materiel and personnel. While many will claim that Logistics should be purely medic, and others claim it is a combat role, the definition of logistics summed into a single word would be 'Support'. The Logistics role provides support in countless facets such as supplying ammunition, providing spawn points, hacking objectives, and offering indirect combat support. They are equipped with numerous gear slots allowing them fulfill this support role and their bonuses should facilitate this further. Logistics should not be focused on frontal combat like the Assault. However this does not mean that they should avoid combat, merely be more focused around supporting combat units with additional fire when needed. Also, despite popular belief, Logistics does not mean that they should have the best defenses in the game. Logistics should not have weak defenses by any means, but not so much that they can replace direct combat Assaults. The current issue with Logistics is that the suit can equip better weapons, do more damage, and have better defenses than Assault and Scout roles. The only major disadvantage is that the Logistics suits in general do not have a sidearm, but this is only a minor setback in comparison to the other advantages. Because of this, the Logistics role is being used for nearly everything, making the other roles obsolete. The biggest issue is the fact that Logistics have significantly more PG, CPU, and module slots than other suits. The reasoning is that they needed additional PG and CPU in order to run suit defenses as well as equipment. Unfortunately, by simply not equipping equipment, players are able to stack high level modules onto a suit frame that far surpasses Assaults and Scouts. The emphasis for Logistics should be support and utility. As such, I do not feel that removing slots or forcing Logistics to fit equipment is an appropriate choice. However, if all Logistics received a reduction to the PG and CPU cost of equipment, and was paired with a decrease in the amount PG and CPU available to them, it would help solve many of the problems with the Logistics suits right now. This effectively makes it so Logistics can equip moderate amounts of offense, defense, and speed as well as a full gambit of equipment because the equipment has a reduced resource cost. If the player wanted more attack, defense, or speed, they could reduce the amount of equipment they are using to upgrade to better modules. However, because most of the Logistics Effective CPU/PG comes from the reduced cost of equipment, removing the equipment would only allow a Logistics suit to reach similar levels to an Assault or Scout, but without the bonuses that those roles provide. This setup allows the Logistics suit to be flexible, but still encourages a more support oriented playstyle. Caldari Logistics Nanohives are produced by Caldari corporations and are an an integral part of any combat situation. Because of this, Nanohives are used almost constantly but are limited by the amount of ammunition and armor they can replenish before burning out. A Caldari Logistics suit should provide an increased Nanite capacity to Nanohives so that they last longer in battle. Gallente Logistics Because Gallente are natural armor tankers, Gallente Logistics should be ideal for supporting their fellow Gallente comrades. As such, giving Gallente Logistics a bonus to repair tool rate would be the most ideal choice. This is particularly useful, as Gallente tend to have a large armor HP pool but limited ability to regenerate it, making repair tool support even more important. Amarr Logistics Drop Uplins are produced primarily by Amarr corporations and are an integral part of any combat situation. Like Nanohives, they are used extensively, especially in game modes such as Planetary Conquest and Domination. Due to their Amarrian design, the Amarr Logistics suit should provide a reduced spawn time to Drop Uplinks, making them a very important part of troop deployment. Minmatar Logistics Because the Minmatar have the fastest dropsuits within their class, they are best suited to get into hotspots and get out quickly. Because of this, the ability to quickly hack objectives would be extremely useful for the Minmatar. A bonus to hack speed would give the Minmatar Logistics the ability to support their team through control of the battlefield. Logistics Role Summary Logistics Role Bonus: +% to reduction of PG/CPU cost of equipment / Lvl Reduce overall PG/CPU of Logistics suits to encourage the use of equipment over other modules. Caldari Logistics Bonus: +% to Nanite Capacity of Nanohives / Lvl Gallente Logistics Bonus: +% to Repair Rate of Repair Tools / Lvl Amarr Logistics Bonus: +% Reduction to Drop Uplink spawn time / Lvl Minmatar Logistics Bonus: +% Hack Speed / Lvl ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1027	Posted - 2013.11.22 06:41:00 - [3] - Quote Reserved ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1027	Posted - 2013.11.22 06:42:00 - [4] - Quote Reserved ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1027	Posted - 2013.11.22 06:43:00 - [5] - Quote Reserved ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1027	Posted - 2013.11.22 06:44:00 - [6] - Quote Reserved ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
Oswald Rehnquist 649	Posted - 2013.11.22 07:19:00 - [7] - Quote I'll let other people cover your logis (I know what people are going to say but I don't play them), but your scouts are all screwed up lol, and I'd take a gander that you don't play them First thing to cover is the redundancy of passive and active scanning (why have good passive scanning when you are also forcing active scanning on them), and you literally tied half of the scouts to one equipment item (not even the logis got shafted that hard). Then you pretty much tied the caldari scout to the sniper (despite the fact that hit direction is given and people don't use noise but sight, and anything sneaking up pops up on your passive scanner), and you are keeping the minmatar tied to the nova knife. No one would use the scout under these constructs, if you are looking for vanilla bonuses then go to the logical suit stat boosting and hope for items that evolve around it or if you are going to go with the more complex, active modules for debuff and utility purposes are where the scout needs to go. If you are going to invent mechanics for the game, make them more useful and broad than a "noise" factor. Below 28 dB
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1032	Posted - 2013.11.22 07:26:00 - [8] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: I'll let other people cover your logis (I know what people are going to say but I don't play them), but your scouts are all screwed up lol, and I'd take a gander that you don't play them First thing to cover is the redundancy of passive and active scanning (why have good passive scanning when you are also forcing active scanning on them), and you literally tied half of the scouts to one equipment item (not even the logis got shafted that hard). Then you pretty much tied the caldari scout to the sniper (despite the fact that hit direction is given and people don't use noise but sight, and anything sneaking up pops up on your passive scanner), and you are keeping the minmatar tied to the nova knife. No one would use the scout under these constructs, if you are looking for vanilla bonuses then go to the logical suit suit stat boosting and hope for items that evolve around it or if you are going to go with the more complex, active modules for debuff and utility purposes are where the scout needs to go. If you are going to invent mechanics for the game, make them more useful and broad than a "noise" factor. Well this is primarily an opinion piece and should be evaluated as such. I covered some of your concerns in the notes regarding Scouts but I'm sorry if you disagree with my opinion on how Scouts should operate. I would like to rework some of those bonuses with the addition of a more combat oriented Light frame which would suit the combat style that people are currently using Scouts. The reason I went with the Active Scanner is because I view Scouts as the role that specifically gathers information, and because passive scans are no longer shared on Tacnet, I felt this was the obvious choice. Also I don't feel that the Active Scanner bonus is redundant, are you misreading the Role Bonus skill? ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
Oswald Rehnquist 651	Posted - 2013.11.22 07:38:00 - [9] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: I'll let other people cover your logis (I know what people are going to say but I don't play them), but your scouts are all screwed up lol, and I'd take a gander that you don't play them First thing to cover is the redundancy of passive and active scanning (why have good passive scanning when you are also forcing active scanning on them), and you literally tied half of the scouts to one equipment item (not even the logis got shafted that hard). Then you pretty much tied the caldari scout to the sniper (despite the fact that hit direction is given and people don't use noise but sight, and anything sneaking up pops up on your passive scanner), and you are keeping the minmatar tied to the nova knife. No one would use the scout under these constructs, if you are looking for vanilla bonuses then go to the logical suit suit stat boosting and hope for items that evolve around it or if you are going to go with the more complex, active modules for debuff and utility purposes are where the scout needs to go. If you are going to invent mechanics for the game, make them more useful and broad than a "noise" factor. Well this is primarily an opinion piece and should be evaluated as such. I covered some of your concerns in the notes regarding Scouts but I'm sorry if you disagree with my opinion on how Scouts should operate. I would like to rework some of those bonuses with the addition of a more combat oriented Light frame which would suit the combat style that people are currently using Scouts. The reason I went with the Active Scanner is because I view Scouts as the role that specifically gathers information, and because passive scans are no longer shared on Tacnet, I felt this was the obvious choice. Also I don't feel that the Active Scanner bonus is redundant, are you misreading the Role Bonus skill? Caught me before my edit, but yeah of course its an opinion piece, and there is nothing wrong with that, for one person to score aces for all the suits would be rare, the only good racial thread we had was one where logi bro keep editing what was said by accepting the valid concerns people had. So it would be in your benefit to listen as people poke holes in your list. On a positive not, you are very comprehensive, and you give us a tour of your thinking, my main point was that your scout list was rather weak. Below 28 dB
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1035	Posted - 2013.11.22 07:39:00 - [10] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Not trying to be a downer or anything but the scout issue is a lot more complex than what people are giving it credit, insofar as it operates as an assault lite or a logi lite. Scouts should serve a unique of a function as the other suits. I think what we're talking about is getting a little lost in translation, and perhaps its my fault for not being more clear before. Essentially I see the "Combat" Scout, which would the shotgunner, the sniper, the knifer, ect would be an entirely different Role built on the Light Frame. The Scout that I talk about in this report would be focused on scanning and being stealthy and less on actual combat, unfortunately because this "Combat Scout" role is rather widely used, I tried to incorporate some of the parts it plays, which perhaps made the Scout section seem a little convoluted. I would actually love to hear some of your ideas for bonuses that you think would benefit a Light Frame Role built around more combat. What sort of perks do you think would benefit that the most? ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes

Lynn Beck Granite Mercenary Division Top Men. 248	Posted - 2013.11.22 07:42:00 - [11] - Quote This reminds me of my thread a while back, "what i would do if CCp made me in charge of ge balance" or something like that. Your description states the scouts should be spies, or information gatherers- yet you make their bonuses towards a specific equipment(which tells everyone around there's a scanner nearby) and then, oddly, make the minmatar an assassin. I would suggest making minmatar based on speedy data gathering(something like efficacy of kincats) and make the caldari scout based on Debuffing nearby enemies(in this case, decreasing scan precision of nearby enemies?) Also the logistics need to have 'general' equipment bonuses. You don't see caldari logis holding 3 types of nanohives. Also the repair tool is primarily minmatar, isnt it? I do love the effort though. Don't be dissuaded like i did! Keep up with your own mental balancing and hopefully CCp will stop smoking. -Newly proclaimed Lazor riffle specialist- "You said yourself fantastically 'congratulations you are all alone.'"
Vulpes Dolosus SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 327	Posted - 2013.11.22 07:46:00 - [12] - Quote I got excited for a second thinking this was going to be about Assault DropshipsGÇª oh well. It's late here so I'll have to finish reading later. Dropship Specialist: AKA Clinically Insane Kills- Incubus: 2; Pythons: 0; Logistics: 0; Militia: 10
Lorhak Gannarsein 628	Posted - 2013.11.22 07:47:00 - [13] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: I'll let other people cover your logis (I know what people are going to say but I don't play them), but your scouts are all screwed up lol, and I'd take a gander that you don't play them First thing to cover is the redundancy of passive and active scanning (why have good passive scanning when you are also forcing active scanning on them), and you literally tied half of the scouts to one equipment item (not even the logis got shafted that hard). Then you pretty much tied the caldari scout to the sniper (despite the fact that hit direction is given and people don't use noise but sight, and anything sneaking up pops up on your passive scanner), and you are keeping the minmatar tied to the nova knife. No one would use the scout under these constructs, if you are looking for vanilla bonuses then go to the logical suit suit stat boosting and hope for items that evolve around it or if you are going to go with the more complex, active modules for debuff and utility purposes are where the scout needs to go. If you are going to invent mechanics for the game, make them more useful and broad than a "noise" factor. Well this is primarily an opinion piece and should be evaluated as such. I covered some of your concerns in the notes regarding Scouts but I'm sorry if you disagree with my opinion on how Scouts should operate. I would like to rework some of those bonuses with the addition of a more combat oriented Light frame which would suit the combat style that people are currently using Scouts. The reason I went with the Active Scanner is because I view Scouts as the role that specifically gathers information, and because passive scans are no longer shared on Tacnet, I felt this was the obvious choice. Also I don't feel that the Active Scanner bonus is redundant, are you misreading the Role Bonus skill? I would suggest that a superior scout ability be "shared sight with persons inside X distance", and that they be somewhat less squishy. I feel like a bonus to dampening is more appropriate to a Covert Ops suit (and I know you touched on that). I also don't like the way you've forced particular equipments on Logistics players; I'd think that a better bonus for Logistics suits would be more in line with what the Minmatar suit has; being able to do specific battlefield roles more effectively, passively. In no way do all Logistics suit users fill their equipment slots with support gear of that type; Amarr Logistics, for instance, is arguably the best AV suit in the game, thanks to its ability to fit Proximity Mines, Remote Explosives and Nanohives, as well as having room for damage mods. I quite like the rest, though - keep up the good work, and I'm very much looking forward to the next instalment!
Oswald Rehnquist 651	Posted - 2013.11.22 07:49:00 - [14] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Not trying to be a downer or anything but the scout issue is a lot more complex than what people are giving it credit, insofar as it operates as an assault lite or a logi lite. Scouts should serve a unique of a function as the other suits. I think what we're talking about is getting a little lost in translation, and perhaps its my fault for not being more clear before. Essentially I see the "Combat" Scout, which would the shotgunner, the sniper, the knifer, ect would be an entirely different Role built on the Light Frame. The Scout that I talk about in this report would be focused on scanning and being stealthy and less on actual combat, unfortunately because this "Combat Scout" role is rather widely used, I tried to incorporate some of the parts it plays, which perhaps made the Scout section seem a little convoluted. I would actually love to hear some of your ideas for bonuses that you think would benefit a Light Frame Role built around more combat. What sort of perks do you think would benefit that the most? Reserved, one sec Below 28 dB
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1035	Posted - 2013.11.22 07:50:00 - [15] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: This reminds me of my thread a while back, "what i would do if CCp made me in charge of ge balance" or something like that. Your description states the scouts should be spies, or information gatherers- yet you make their bonuses towards a specific equipment(which tells everyone around there's a scanner nearby) and then, oddly, make the minmatar an assassin. I would suggest making minmatar based on speedy data gathering(something like efficacy of kincats) and make the caldari scout based on Debuffing nearby enemies(in this case, decreasing scan precision of nearby enemies?) Also the logistics need to have 'general' equipment bonuses. You don't see caldari logis holding 3 types of nanohives. Also the repair tool is primarily minmatar, isnt it? I do love the effort though. Don't be dissuaded like i did! Keep up with your own mental balancing and hopefully CCp will stop smoking. Well the Logis do get general bonuses by making it very easy to fit gear. I suppose what I was going for was making it so while everyone can fit equipment, the Logistics will do it best. And while all Logistics can use said gear, certain suits will use certain equipment the best. The idea is that you not only want all SUIT types in a well balanced team, you also want all RACES of those suits. So no you wont see a Caldari guy running around with 3 Nanohives...or maybe you will? The point is that if you want to play Support, you pick Logi. Now depending on what aspect of support you want to play, you have your racial options. I didn't want to prevent any roles from doing something, but I wanted to avoid sweeping bonuses that potentially made certain racial variants pointless. No role or suit should be able to do everything. A random mix of suits and races should be able to still perform the tasks needed to win a battle, however an OPTIMIZED team should have a wide mix of suits and racial variants because they each optimize a little niche of the role to make an overall comlete team. And I know this topic is going to get a lot of flak, and most people wont agree with me. My attempt was to create an organized list of my thoughts in my attempt to balance the game how I feel would be best, or at the very least a direction to work towards. Whats important is we have a civil discussion about these topics. Much as the title states, these are ADS reports. Analysis. Discussion. and Suggestions. ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes


Pages: [1] :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page