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Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION
972
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Posted - 2013.11.21 03:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
Currently there are issues with weapons having so little barrel climb as to be ignorable or no climb all together when used with a modded controller. I propose adding some simple mechanics to the game that will increase barrel climb for all weapons (except laser weapons) and eliminate the advantage conferred by modded controllers/macro mice.
All weapons should have a per shot barrel climb equal to .01 times the weapons base damage in degrees. The formula for climb would thus be the following:
.01b=d
"b" meaning base damage "d" meaning degrees of barrel climb
Under this system a weapon dealing 34 damage per round (a GEK for example) would see 20-¦ of barrel climb when firing a 60 round burst. A Duvolle, with its higher base damage would see marginally higher climb rates but not high enough to give the GEK an advantage over the higher end weapon.
Just to extend the example a SMG dealing 24 damage per shot would climb 19-¦ when firing its whole magazine.
Mass drivers and other high per shot damage weapons would gain several degrees of elevation per shot but their relatively low ROF would make compensating for this climb easier.
As I stated at the beginning of the post this should be applied to all projectile weapons since but not lasers since the later does fire items with any mass.
This should be implemented in tandem with my much earlier suggestion about stamina being linked to accuracy. Though I think the stamina accuracy link should come in the form of increased barrel wander at lower stamina levels (much like what is experienced by snipers before they settle their weapon in a crouch) as opposed to the barrel climb I proposed in that earlier thread.
Fun > Realism
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Oxskull Duncarino
Shadow Company HQ
238
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Posted - 2013.11.21 03:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
+1 We needed this yesterday. The easy option CCP seem to have used, which is all based on time firing rather than per shot needs to go. I know they're under pressure to use assets as cost efficiently as possible, but it's time to move on before problems are too big. |
Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION
991
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Posted - 2013.11.22 06:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
This is still a good idea that needs CCP's notice.
Fun > Realism
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Oxskull Duncarino
Shadow Company HQ
243
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Posted - 2013.11.22 12:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Yeh, frankly I don't see CCP not doing this. It's a simple and standard FPS mechanic. Each shot that is fired has a degree of climb for the muzzle of the gun. They can get more fancy by including a smaller random left/right degree of movement per shot. To put the cheery on the cake they could have a increased level of recoil for the first shot to simulate the operator having to set themselves into the initial recoil.
They have to do the basic though, as you've laid out. I don't see any other workable options. |
Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION
995
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Posted - 2013.11.22 13:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Oxskull Duncarino wrote:Yeh, frankly I don't see CCP not doing this. It's a simple and standard FPS mechanic. Each shot that is fired has a degree of climb for the muzzle of the gun. They can get more fancy by including a smaller random left/right degree of movement per shot. To put the cheery on the cake they could have a increased level of recoil for the first shot to simulate the operator having to set themselves into the initial recoil.
They have to do the basic though, as you've laid out. I don't see any other workable options.
Exactly I don't imagine the programming involved in this would be too complex and players would quickly get used to the changes. Would this increase game lag? Probably not, it isn't a huge increase in calculating. This should be a no brainer CCP.
Fun > Realism
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Fizzer94
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
858
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Posted - 2013.11.22 14:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Yes. Anything that makes weapons more challenging to use, or increases TTK sounds good to me. You have my support.
[+ªa¦Ç+¦++-ö-Å94]
Burner of faces.
The Plasma Cannon is not underpowered.
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Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION
1005
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Posted - 2013.11.24 18:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
We still want this CCP. Give us more challenging gun game.
Fun > Realism
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Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
250
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Posted - 2013.11.29 03:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Excellent idea!
Love the idea of increasing barrel climb as damage increases
+1
Who cares what some sniper has to say
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Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
665
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Posted - 2013.11.29 07:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
It would be nice if that one single equation would work for all weapons. Unfortunately, it can't and won't.
There are better solutions to this problem.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION
292
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Posted - 2013.11.29 08:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
There are good chances CCP will implement something like this, to soleve the issue with modded controllers totally denying barrel climb and dispersion with the AR. I just hope they fix this for ALL ARs not just the Plasma Assault Rifle aka Gallente AR. |
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Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
1041
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Posted - 2013.11.29 08:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:It would be nice if that one single equation would work for all weapons. Unfortunately, it can't and won't. There are better solutions to this problem.
Name one.
Fun > Realism
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Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
665
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Posted - 2013.11.29 09:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:It would be nice if that one single equation would work for all weapons. Unfortunately, it can't and won't. There are better solutions to this problem. Name one. Giving each weapon its own specific amount of barrel climb. Giving them barrel climb based on damage alone would not only be somewhat silly, it would kill variety.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Oxskull Duncarino
Shadow Company HQ
262
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Posted - 2013.11.29 16:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:Mobius Kaethis wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:It would be nice if that one single equation would work for all weapons. Unfortunately, it can't and won't. There are better solutions to this problem. Name one. Giving each weapon its own specific amount of barrel climb. Giving them barrel climb based on damage alone would not only be somewhat silly, it would kill variety. I don't see what is silly about have the degree of climb per shot dependent on the shot damage. More damage equals more recoil equals more muzzle climb!!! It's a very simple rule both in real life and is used in most FPS games. Certain weapons will have less climb firing the same bullet dealing the same recoil as another weapon due to a difference in design.
What we can have is the Tac AR deals more damage and will therefore have more muzzle climb than the regular full auto AR, but it's advantage is that it is semi-auto and therefore the climb is easier to deal with. In a similar manner the militia AR will have less muzzle climb than the Duvolle due to it doing less damage due to less power behind it which gives less recoil. An equation could easily be used for all weapons in a similar category with the only variable changing being the damage. For example, all the plasma rifles would use one equation, but all the rail rifles would use another equation. Once CCP decide what each weapon type characteristics are, the equation would be simple to put together, and easy to tweak to get a good balance.
To add variety to each weapon group, first shot recoil increase, and muzzle movement to left and/or right per shot could be used. |
Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
1042
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Posted - 2013.11.30 07:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
I see what some of you are saying about how not every racial weapon should have the same damage to barrel climb ratio. Some should climb more or less depending on the configuration. That makes perfect sense.
I'm adjusting the formula to include a racial modifier so that while each weapon climbs more based upon its damage it can also be modified to fit the racial characteristics CCP wishes to portray.
These edits will happen in the OP.
Fun > Realism
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alias lycan
Federated Consultants PMC Lokun Listamenn
1
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Posted - 2013.11.30 08:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
im all for this idea. would love to see more skill involved then just point shoot kill. I have a question about hipfire spread though. would it increase as the gun becomes more difficult to handle and if so by how much? |
Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
690
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Posted - 2013.11.30 09:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
Oxskull Duncarino wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Mobius Kaethis wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:It would be nice if that one single equation would work for all weapons. Unfortunately, it can't and won't. There are better solutions to this problem. Name one. Giving each weapon its own specific amount of barrel climb. Giving them barrel climb based on damage alone would not only be somewhat silly, it would kill variety. I don't see what is silly about have the degree of climb per shot dependent on the shot damage. More damage equals more recoil equals more muzzle climb!!! It's a very simple rule both in real life and is used in most FPS games. Certain weapons will have less climb firing the same bullet dealing the same recoil as another weapon due to a difference in design. More damage does not always equal more recoil, and more recoil does not always equal more barrel climb. Different weapons have different ratios. Minmatar weapons would likely have a higher recoil to damage ratio, and heavier weapons are less affected by a similar amount of recoil than small weapons. Secondly, would this really work for HMGs? Poor HMGs. Can you imagine that ridiculous barrel climb? Keep in mind that the HMGs are designed for continuous fire.
Also, congratulations on agreeing with me, dumbarse. You fail at arguments.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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KalOfTheRathi
Nec Tributis
913
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Posted - 2013.11.30 12:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
Waste of bloody time. Again.
Barrel climb is recoil, feedback, dispersion or any other BS term you want to throw in. You are thinking real world stuff.
Get over it!
We are Immortal Mercenaries.
In the far, far future.
In Space.
Recoil compensators work today. Yes, I would expect them to be even better 2100 centuries in the future. And account for bullet drop as well. Of course I would expect them to have decent scopes but that is toooooo much to ask for.
All you are wanting is to have others not be as good as they are because you are getting your butt shot off. HTFU. CCP/Shanghai is immune to your QQ as a miniscule TTK is what they want. Until they want a different TTK this is how things are. And we didn't always get killed in 1.3 seconds. CCP/Shanghai fixed that good and proper now didn't they?
Be careful of what you ask these super coders to fix.
Welcome to DUST, and yes the Battle Finder sucks. |
Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
1042
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Posted - 2013.11.30 15:58:00 -
[18] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:Oxskull Duncarino wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Mobius Kaethis wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:It would be nice if that one single equation would work for all weapons. Unfortunately, it can't and won't. There are better solutions to this problem. Name one. Giving each weapon its own specific amount of barrel climb. Giving them barrel climb based on damage alone would not only be somewhat silly, it would kill variety. I don't see what is silly about have the degree of climb per shot dependent on the shot damage. More damage equals more recoil equals more muzzle climb!!! It's a very simple rule both in real life and is used in most FPS games. Certain weapons will have less climb firing the same bullet dealing the same recoil as another weapon due to a difference in design. More damage does not always equal more recoil, and more recoil does not always equal more barrel climb. Different weapons have different ratios. Minmatar weapons would likely have a higher recoil to damage ratio, and heavier weapons are less affected by a similar amount of recoil than small weapons. Secondly, would this really work for HMGs? Poor HMGs. Can you imagine that ridiculous barrel climb? Keep in mind that the HMGs are designed for continuous fire. Also, congratulations on agreeing with me, dumbarse. You fail at arguments.
I just checked the math on how this would affect the HMG and for the highest damage varient (the boundless) it would climb .198 degrees per round which comes out to 84 degrees for the entire mag.
The fact is though that this still would make the game fun and would only be penalizing total idiots. No one but a fool empties an entire mag from a HMG in a single burst and doing so should incur a huge amount of barrel climb.
When you go a bit farther with the math though you'll see that the HMG which fires about 33 rounds per second would only be getting 6-¦ of barrel climb per second. That is nothing and a good player will easily be able to compensate with a light touch on the left analogue stick.
I am willing to say though that the HMG might be the exception to my "no racial variants" statement from earlier. The HMG is a massive weapon which should have built in recoil compensators and should have less climb than the formula is giving it. Adding a .75 multiplier would be a great way to deal with this. Alternately a skill could be added from the HMG called recoil compensation which could reduce the climb by 5% per level, effectively doing the same thing but making the heavy a bit more sp intensive.
Fun > Realism
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Meeko Fent
Commando Perkone Caldari State
1699
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Posted - 2013.11.30 20:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:Mobius Kaethis wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:It would be nice if that one single equation would work for all weapons. Unfortunately, it can't and won't. There are better solutions to this problem. Name one. Giving each weapon its own specific amount of barrel climb. Giving them barrel climb based on damage alone would not only be somewhat silly, it would kill variety. Hmm?
High damage usuall can be compared to a bigger cartridge, be it a bullet, or a magnetically propelled slug, with therefore can be equated to higher amounts of energy exerted on the wielder, causing muzzle climb
Fireing a desert eagle vs firing a 9mm
Refunding a few AUR militia Blueprints pertaining to vehicles because their respective modules will not exist anymore
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Samantha Hunyz
Clones Of The Damned Zero-Day
25
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Posted - 2013.11.30 21:39:00 -
[20] - Quote
This would make the sniper rifles worthless. It takes 3-5 shots with a proto sniper to score a kill. Getting that many rounds to hit a target already takes work, determination, and in part a idiot red dot. Skilled weapons are not and have not been the issue and this should not apply to them. To start fixing weapons, let's start with making each weapon only work well in a limited range. Med long range should not work well in cqc or long ranges (laser tacs and scr with horrible hip fire and reduced damage outside there range). Then from there, take the weapons with automatic fire and give them real kick starting from the time the first round is fired. To help combat modded controls, make the recoil have a cool down bar like heat weapons. You still can fire the weapon,but the kick level would be equal to how full the bar is. Obviously the kick bar would have a much faster cool down to make the weapon not worthless.
When I look down my scope, all I see are dead people.
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Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
1043
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Posted - 2013.11.30 22:13:00 -
[21] - Quote
Samantha Hunyz wrote:This would make the sniper rifles worthless. It takes 3-5 shots with a proto sniper to score a kill. Getting that many rounds to hit a target already takes work, determination, and in part a idiot red dot.
Skilled weapons are not and have not been the issue and this should not apply to them. To start fixing weapons, let's start with making each weapon only work well in a limited range. Med long range should not work well in cqc or long ranges (laser tacs and scr with horrible hip fire and reduced damage outside there range). Then from there, take the weapons with automatic fire and give them real kick starting from the time the first round is fired.
To help combat modded controls, make the recoil have a cool down bar like heat weapons. You still can fire the weapon,but the kick level would be equal to how full the bar is. Obviously the kick bar would have a much faster cool down to make the weapon not worthless.
I added paragraphs to make your post readable.
First off none of us really cares about snipers. They are parasites on the underbelly of this game and should be dealt with as such.
Really though you are right snipers another exception to the barrel climb rule as they already have some nice recoil from each shot. They don't really need to have a change like this affecting them.
Hmmm, perhaps their is more need than I previously thought for either 1) a recoil compensation skill or 2) some modification the formula to allow variance for different weapons.
On the whole though I still think that this is a very simple and elegant solution to the lack of recoil all the projectile weapons suffer from in this game. Yes, it is also a solution to the modded controller 100% accuracy issue but it is first and foremost a way to make the game more fun.
Fun > Realism
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Meeko Fent
Commando Perkone Caldari State
1699
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Posted - 2013.11.30 22:48:00 -
[22] - Quote
Hmm
Has nobody thought that people would think to counter the climb?
Refunding a few AUR militia Blueprints pertaining to vehicles because their respective modules will not exist anymore
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DeadlyAztec11
2413
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Posted - 2013.12.01 00:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
This is already implemented in a form, or at least I believe it to be.
I believe that the Higher end AR's have not only more recoil, but more dispersion. I cannot prove it. Though, I feel like this is true.
Madness is the emergency exit. You can just step outside, and close the door on all those dreadful things that happened.
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Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
1044
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Posted - 2013.12.01 06:43:00 -
[24] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:This is already implemented in a form, or at least I believe it to be.
I believe that the Higher end AR's have not only more recoil, but more dispersion. I cannot prove it. Though, I feel like this is true.
Accroding to the weapon's stats the higher level (and higher damage) weapons have greater accuracy (which is the stat that controls dispersion) than lower level gear.
Fun > Realism
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Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY
3910
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Posted - 2013.12.01 07:13:00 -
[25] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:This is already implemented in a form, or at least I believe it to be.
I believe that the Higher end AR's have not only more recoil, but more dispersion. I cannot prove it. Though, I feel like this is true. Accroding to the weapon's stats the higher level (and higher damage) weapons have greater accuracy (which is the stat that controls dispersion) than lower level gear. Yes, paying for upgraded weapons that have lower stats would be tantamount to insanity.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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Ivy Zalinto
Bobbit's Hangmen
57
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Posted - 2013.12.01 07:48:00 -
[26] - Quote
Uses pistols and plasma cannons. Recoil is irrelevant and have to deal with it every shot. Fix the strafing before you add recoil to manage as well for you guys or I will die even less in my already gimped scout. M/kb players can already stepdance in the middle of the field. They can do this and manage mass amounts of recoil then more power to them.
Main issue with weapons that needs to be fixed is the ranges. Maybe some dispersion for automatic or near automatic fire at ranges. This would solve alot of issues from players wanting a skill based game, but then your more fast paced game players will qq because they cant fly around the map anymore while shooting from the hip.
No matter what ccp does people will always *****, and they will always do so in mass.
I still call dust; Dust 514.
Dedicated scout.
Caldari loyalist.
Pistol supremacy.
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Saoa Scum
Judge Mercenaries
27
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Posted - 2013.12.01 12:00:00 -
[27] - Quote
We need something like this or similar !! |
Oxskull Duncarino
Shadow Company HQ
265
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Posted - 2013.12.02 20:20:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote: More damage does not always equal more recoil, and more recoil does not always equal more barrel climb. Different weapons have different ratios. Minmatar weapons would likely have a higher recoil to damage ratio, and heavier weapons are less affected by a similar amount of recoil than small weapons. Secondly, would this really work for HMGs? Poor HMGs. Can you imagine that ridiculous barrel climb? Keep in mind that the HMGs are designed for continuous fire.
Also, congratulations on agreeing with me, dumbarse. You fail at arguments.
Other than the equations thing, where else did I agree with you. And that wasn't really in full agreement with ya. Or is that your total reason for attempting to insulting me
Dust is not real life and it's not EVE either. Even though I haven't played EVE I still would have preferred if CCP had kept Dust to its same design concepts, but I'll live with they fact that they decided to go their own way with a new rule set being created.
There is nothing wrong with using some basic physics to enhance the gameplay experience to make the game feel more natural, even with all the make believe used, but if it gets in the way of fun I prefer make believe over true physics. Your example of the HMGs is fairly bad and shows how little your understanding of the gun from a game as well as real life aspect.
As it is, each round does less damage than a SMG round, fires at twice a SMGs ROF to more or less the same distance, but weighs alot more than a SMG and is used on a massive heavy suit designed to handle both the weight and the recoil. Fairly easy to have an equation that factors all this in. And, in reality, the HMG would not have ridiculous barrel climb as you said. Due to where the handles are, the muzzle should push down towards the floor. But, hey, I'm here for fun so I'll go with make believe where the muzzle actually rises.
Anyway, whatever Do people a favour and learn to read all their post before ya insert your head up your rear and post a response. |
Oxskull Duncarino
Shadow Company HQ
265
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Posted - 2013.12.02 20:30:00 -
[29] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:This is already implemented in a form, or at least I believe it to be.
I believe that the Higher end AR's have not only more recoil, but more dispersion. I cannot prove it. Though, I feel like this is true. Yeh, I've heard this said as well but I think it's only once you get in recoil after 20-30 rounds that it is seen and even then it's not much. I don't see any real difference myself, it's just what others have said. Most people will burst fire so it wouldn't be an issue anyway |
Oxskull Duncarino
Shadow Company HQ
265
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Posted - 2013.12.02 20:41:00 -
[30] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:
I just checked the math on how this would affect the HMG and for the highest damage varient (the boundless) it would climb .198 degrees per round which comes out to 84 degrees for the entire mag.
The fact is though that this still would make the game fun and would only be penalizing total idiots. No one but a fool empties an entire mag from a HMG in a single burst and doing so should incur a huge amount of barrel climb.
When you go a bit farther with the math though you'll see that the HMG which fires about 33 rounds per second would only be getting 6-¦ of barrel climb per second. That is nothing and a good player will easily be able to compensate with a light touch on the left analogue stick.
I am willing to say though that the HMG might be the exception to my "no racial variants" statement from earlier. The HMG is a massive weapon which should have built in recoil compensators and should have less climb than the formula is giving it. Adding a .75 multiplier would be a great way to deal with this. Alternately a skill could be added from the HMG called recoil compensation which could reduce the climb by 5% per level, effectively doing the same thing but making the heavy a bit more sp intensive.
^Good stuff. Yeh, the HMG would have to be looked at with a modifier as the suit that was designed to use it is meant to help combat the recoil, plus, as you said the weapon is massive and with the low damage per bullet the gun shouldn't have too much muzzle climb. The HMG operations as it is is the same as the skill you mention, 5% recoil reduction/level, so all good there. |
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