DUST Search - Reworking Uplinks

Quill Killian wrote:

Maken Tosch wrote:

deezy dabest wrote:

Can someone please explain what the problem with uplink spam?

Aside from what one person said about framerate drop in PC no one seems to have any reasons for why it is a problem.

Is it because you are mad that you are not getting spawn points from your uplinks due to people stacking theirs on top?

Oh an please dont say WP farming for orbitals because no points are awarded until it is used meaning that there was some value in where it was placed.

If you read the thread, the lag and frame rate are the principle issues behind the spam. The server is having to struggle with processing dozens of these equipment items and that is just on one match alone. There are dozens of matches occurring every hour in the game at once with 16vs16 teams. Imagine when the team size increases to say... 24vs24 or 32vs32, etc. It will be a war on lag because of the equipment spam.

If *that's* what's straining the server, then CCP has much more serious, underlying issues they need to deal with other than nerfing yet another skill tree that folks have spent skill points on.

And, when you think about it, a dozen spawn points and similar number of nanohives *shouldn't* be straining CCP's server. After all, EVE usually has anywhere from 20,000 to 40,000 players on simultaneously, along with massive battles much larger than anything Dust 514 could hope to achieve, and yet the EVE side of things seem to hold up pretty well. Dust 514 is lucky to have 2,000 to 4,000 players on at any one time, in smaller matches ... yet this is somehow straining CCP's Tranquility server?

Yeah, if that's the case, then CCP has far bigger issues to worry about.

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Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 1785	Posted - 2013.11.11 17:55:00 - [1] - Quote This came up in another thread and to prevent derailing it further I'm posting the idea here to be discussed and brutalized. Uplinks are CPU intensive which would seem to indicate they rely on the dropsuit for processing power. Should uplinks be tied to that dropsuit and either go off-line or self destruct once that suit has been switched or destroyed? If a scout or logistics drop some uplinks maybe they should be more tactically careful until their squad has spawned in. This would end uplink spam and make deployment and protection of them and the deployer more important. AKA: Rees Noturana https://twitter.com/reesnoturana
Ploo-Koon Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 279	Posted - 2013.11.11 17:59:00 - [2] - Quote Why is uplink spam an issue that needs to be fixed? I mean, sure it's annoying and harder to get WP from spawns but it doesn't seem to be breaking anything and everyone is just hurting themselves by doing it. (GöÉGöî ).....[ a¦Å^Gûá ].....{ a¦Å\°/a¦Å }.....( : : )
Seymor Krelborn DUST University Ivy League 1179	Posted - 2013.11.11 18:00:00 - [3] - Quote add to this no more spawning at letters in a skirmish (which is all PC matches) and uplinks and the life attached to them becomes all the more coveted. I think it could work and pose great strategic and logistic challenges in a match. insert witty or profound statement here _______.
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 1789	Posted - 2013.11.11 18:02:00 - [4] - Quote Ploo-Koon wrote: Why is uplink spam an issue that needs to be fixed? I mean, sure it's annoying and harder to get WP from spawns but it doesn't seem to be breaking anything and everyone is just hurting themselves by doing it. Uplink spam seems to cause lag and makes it difficult to identify what is going on when spawning in due to map clutter. Lag is the primary concern. AKA: Rees Noturana https://twitter.com/reesnoturana
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 865	Posted - 2013.11.11 18:04:00 - [5] - Quote Ploo-Koon wrote: Why is uplink spam an issue that needs to be fixed? I mean, sure it's annoying and harder to get WP from spawns but it doesn't seem to be breaking anything and everyone is just hurting themselves by doing it. Because it takes absolutely no skill, makes it nearly impossible to decide where exactly you want to spawn, and while not being a core component, causes major Framerate Drops. There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry You'll still be useful in my eyes
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 865	Posted - 2013.11.11 18:09:00 - [6] - Quote Seymor Krelborn wrote: add to this no more spawning at letters in a skirmish (which is all PC matches) and uplinks and the life attached to them becomes all the more coveted. I think it could work and pose great strategic and logistic challenges in a match. Yes, but I don't want to have to run uplinks 100% of the time in a match to keep the active. I'd say just limit the amount of uplinks on the field. That and make things to where uplinks can't be within x meters of another uplink and remain active, regardless of wether or not they are being dropped by the same person. And prioritize the uplinks in terms of tiers. For example, If I have a PRO drop uplink, when I place it down the STD drop uplink would be removed if it's within x meters of the other uplink. There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry You'll still be useful in my eyes
Ploo-Koon Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 279	Posted - 2013.11.11 18:14:00 - [7] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: Ploo-Koon wrote: Why is uplink spam an issue that needs to be fixed? I mean, sure it's annoying and harder to get WP from spawns but it doesn't seem to be breaking anything and everyone is just hurting themselves by doing it. Uplink spam seems to cause lag and makes it difficult to identify what is going on when spawning in due to map clutter. Lag is the primary concern. Makes sense, I support changes to the uplinks. How about: you can't deploy more than one uplink at a time no matter what level but the spawn time gets better the higher the level? Change spawn time MLT Spawn time - 20 sec Basic - 10 secs Adv - 5 secs Proto - 3 secs (GöÉGöî ).....[ a¦Å^Gûá ].....{ a¦Å\°/a¦Å }.....( : : )
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1145	Posted - 2013.11.11 18:21:00 - [8] - Quote Atiim wrote: Seymor Krelborn wrote: add to this no more spawning at letters in a skirmish (which is all PC matches) and uplinks and the life attached to them becomes all the more coveted. I think it could work and pose great strategic and logistic challenges in a match. Yes, but I don't want to have to run uplinks 100% of the time in a match to keep the active. I'd say just limit the amount of uplinks on the field. That and make things to where uplinks can't be within x meters of another uplink and remain active, regardless of wether or not they are being dropped by the same person. And prioritize the uplinks in terms of tiers. For example, If I have a PRO drop uplink, when I place it down the STD drop uplink would be removed if it's within x meters of the other uplink. Removing allied drop uplinks isn't efficiency, it is trolling. Also, if you do not have the commitment to stay with the suit with the drop uplinks, you do not have the right to claim the WP for people spawning on them, simple as that. ECM Equipment
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 1790	Posted - 2013.11.11 18:24:00 - [9] - Quote I'd suggest a hard limit per mercenary. I think the most any single uplink module can deploy is three so that would be my vote. Your limit and placement shouldn't limit any other merc's uplinks. If you want to drop them all in a pile then fine. But, I don't see the point in doing that. AKA: Rees Noturana https://twitter.com/reesnoturana
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 1790	Posted - 2013.11.11 18:26:00 - [10] - Quote Ploo-Koon wrote: How about: you can't deploy more than one uplink at a time no matter what level but the spawn time gets better the higher the level? Change spawn time MLT Spawn time - 20 sec Basic - 10 secs Adv - 5 secs Proto - 3 secs Interesting idea. AKA: Rees Noturana https://twitter.com/reesnoturana

ReGnYuM Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1295	Posted - 2013.11.11 18:28:00 - [11] - Quote Ploo-Koon wrote: Why is uplink spam an issue that needs to be fixed? I mean, sure it's annoying and harder to get WP from spawns but it doesn't seem to be breaking anything and everyone is just hurting themselves by doing it. Uplink spam causes mass frame rate loss in PC amd memory leaks That is why it needs to stop If you never heard of ReGnYuM, you're neither Good or Relevant in Dust 514. KDR > EVERYTHING
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5043	Posted - 2013.11.11 18:29:00 - [12] - Quote Ploo-Koon wrote: Reav Hannari wrote: Ploo-Koon wrote: Why is uplink spam an issue that needs to be fixed? I mean, sure it's annoying and harder to get WP from spawns but it doesn't seem to be breaking anything and everyone is just hurting themselves by doing it. Uplink spam seems to cause lag and makes it difficult to identify what is going on when spawning in due to map clutter. Lag is the primary concern. Makes sense, I support changes to the uplinks. How about: you can't deploy more than one uplink at a time no matter what level but the spawn time gets better the higher the level? Change spawn time MLT Spawn time - 20 sec Basic - 10 secs Adv - 5 secs Proto - 3 secs That's too much of a nerf to begin with. Besides, the longer you stay bleeding out, the shorter your respawn time gets (minimum 3 seconds) before selecting the next spawn point. This practically negates your idea. My proposal is based on a conversation I had with a scout squad back in the Scouts United chat channel. I propose that there should be an arbitrary cap of the total number of uplinks and nanohives per team or at least within a given quadrant of the map so as to mitigate lag. All too often I see almost 20 uplinks and some 20 nanohives flooding an entire city with these things making it impossible to see closely what's going on in the overview and it creates lag and frame rate drops due to the processing of these excessive items. CCP, please fix the Nova Knives. Thank you.
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 1388	Posted - 2013.11.11 18:31:00 - [13] - Quote I think the easiest thing would be to make it so no matter what you do, you can only have 1 uplink module on your suit.
Ploo-Koon Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 282	Posted - 2013.11.11 18:35:00 - [14] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: That's too much of a nerf to begin with. Besides, the longer you stay bleeding out, the shorter your respawn time gets (minimum 3 seconds) before selecting the next spawn point. This practically negates your idea. My proposal is based on a conversation I had with a scout squad back in the Scouts United chat channel. I propose that there should be an arbitrary cap of the total number of uplinks and nanohives per team or at least within a given quadrant of the map so as to mitigate lag. All too often I see almost 20 uplinks and some 20 nanohives flooding an entire city with these things making it impossible to see closely what's going on in the overview and it creates lag and frame rate drops due to the processing of these excessive items. It's definitely a pretty big nerf but it would make uplinks more of a prized item. That aside, it isn't a perfect idea. I like the idea of limiting the overall number of uplinks on the field. I think there are graphical ways of reducing the overview clutter and render issues that don't involve nerfing equipment at all. Using shadowing rather than full render for example. I'd also bet there is a programmatic ways to adjust the tracking and upkeep of deployed equipment that don't directly impact game play. (GöÉGöî ).....[ a¦Å^Gûá ].....{ a¦Å\°/a¦Å }.....( : : )
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5043	Posted - 2013.11.11 18:38:00 - [15] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: I think the easiest thing would be to make it so no matter what you do, you can only have 1 uplink module on your suit. Not going to work. One can easily counter that by repeatedly swapping suits at a supply depot fitted with different versions of the uplinks and nanohives. CCP, please fix the Nova Knives. Thank you.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5043	Posted - 2013.11.11 18:39:00 - [16] - Quote Ploo-Koon wrote: It's definitely a pretty big nerf but it would make uplinks more of a prized item. That aside, it isn't a perfect idea. It's still too much of a nerf for uplinks. I still think my idea of putting a cap per team would be an ideal solution. CCP, please fix the Nova Knives. Thank you.
Ploo-Koon Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 282	Posted - 2013.11.11 18:47:00 - [17] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: It's still too much of a nerf for uplinks. I still think my idea of putting a cap per team would be an ideal solution. It's the simplest top down solution that fixes the widest number of problems at once but it creates it's own issues. How should the game react when the number has been reached? Does it just not allow you to deploy anymore or does the one you just put out fizzle or would it be a FIFO system so that the newest uplink destroys the oldest? What if I'm running STD(1 active) and I deployed before the cap was hit then I deploy a 2nd one, does my first fizzle? If so, then I would deploy one in the MCC to lock my spot in the count, then deploy another when I got to the location I wanted. Alternately if I'm running with an ADV and can have 2 active, I deploy one in the MCC then one where I want it and even if I die I still have one on the MCC my spot in the count would always be maintained.(unless you are in a match with FF and someone destroys it in the MCC). If I wanted to AWOX and I had proto I could deploy 3 in the MCC and as long as no one takes them out the team will be down 3 uplinks the entire match. I can think of a few more scenarios but there are still issues with just limiting the number on the field. (GöÉGöî ).....[ a¦Å^Gûá ].....{ a¦Å\°/a¦Å }.....( : : )
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 1388	Posted - 2013.11.11 18:53:00 - [18] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: I think the easiest thing would be to make it so no matter what you do, you can only have 1 uplink module on your suit. Not going to work. One can easily counter that by repeatedly swapping suits at a supply depot fitted with different versions of the uplinks and nanohives. It would be a move in the right direction. However, I can see what you mean.
Saxbrin Shain Ivory Vanguard 75	Posted - 2013.11.11 18:55:00 - [19] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: I'd suggest a hard limit per mercenary. I think the most any single uplink module can deploy is three so that would be my vote. Your limit and placement shouldn't limit any other merc's uplinks. If you want to drop them all in a pile then fine. But, I don't see the point in doing that. I would recommend combining that with a hard limit for deployed equipment per mercenary. One of my go-to suits deploys two Drop Uplinks and two Nanohives all at the same time. Four pieces of deployed equipment doesn't seem excessive for playing Logistics, but I've played with guys who have a series of dropsuits set up to use Supply Depots and deploy more than a dozen pieces of equipment. That's a bit much.
deezy dabest Warpoint Sharx 86	Posted - 2013.11.11 18:59:00 - [20] - Quote Can someone please explain what the problem with uplink spam? Aside from what one person said about framerate drop in PC no one seems to have any reasons for why it is a problem. Is it because you are mad that you are not getting spawn points from your uplinks due to people stacking theirs on top? Oh an please dont say WP farming for orbitals because no points are awarded until it is used meaning that there was some value in where it was placed.

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5044	Posted - 2013.11.11 19:09:00 - [21] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Can someone please explain what the problem with uplink spam? Aside from what one person said about framerate drop in PC no one seems to have any reasons for why it is a problem. Is it because you are mad that you are not getting spawn points from your uplinks due to people stacking theirs on top? Oh an please dont say WP farming for orbitals because no points are awarded until it is used meaning that there was some value in where it was placed. If you read the thread, the lag and frame rate are the principle issues behind the spam. The server is having to struggle with processing dozens of these equipment items and that is just on one match alone. There are dozens of matches occurring every hour in the game at once with 16vs16 teams. Imagine when the team size increases to say... 24vs24 or 32vs32, etc. It will be a war on lag because of the equipment spam. CCP, please fix the Nova Knives. Thank you.
Quill Killian Better Hide R Die 270	Posted - 2013.11.11 19:19:00 - [22] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Can someone please explain what the problem with uplink spam? Aside from what one person said about framerate drop in PC no one seems to have any reasons for why it is a problem. Is it because you are mad that you are not getting spawn points from your uplinks due to people stacking theirs on top? Oh an please dont say WP farming for orbitals because no points are awarded until it is used meaning that there was some value in where it was placed. If you read the thread, the lag and frame rate are the principle issues behind the spam. The server is having to struggle with processing dozens of these equipment items and that is just on one match alone. There are dozens of matches occurring every hour in the game at once with 16vs16 teams. Imagine when the team size increases to say... 24vs24 or 32vs32, etc. It will be a war on lag because of the equipment spam. If that's what's straining the server, then CCP has much more serious, underlying issues they need to deal with other than nerfing yet another skill tree that folks have spent skill points on. And, when you think about it, a dozen spawn points and similar number of nanohives shouldn't be straining CCP's server. After all, EVE usually has anywhere from 20,000 to 40,000 players on simultaneously, along with massive battles much larger than anything Dust 514 could hope to achieve, and yet the EVE side of things seem to hold up pretty well. Dust 514 is lucky to have 2,000 to 4,000 players on at any one time, in smaller matches ... yet this is somehow straining CCP's Tranquility server? Yeah, if that's the case, then CCP has far bigger issues to worry about.
Ploo-Koon Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 285	Posted - 2013.11.11 19:27:00 - [23] - Quote Quill Killian wrote: After all, EVE usually has anywhere from 20,000 to 40,000 players on simultaneously, along with massive battles much larger than anything Dust 514 could hope to achieve, and yet the EVE side of things seem to hold up pretty well. Dust 514 is lucky to have 2,000 to 4,000 players on at any one time, in smaller matches ... yet this is somehow straining CCP's Tranquility server? Yeah, if that's the case, then CCP has far bigger issues to worry about. I agree but things of note for perspective: EVE has time dilation, something that wouldn't work for a FPS, it has a massive player base pumping ALOT of money into it every month and a decade of ramp up to what it is now. (GöÉGöî ).....[ a¦Å^Gûá ].....{ a¦Å\°/a¦Å }.....( : : )
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1145	Posted - 2013.11.11 19:28:00 - [24] - Quote Quill Killian wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Can someone please explain what the problem with uplink spam? Aside from what one person said about framerate drop in PC no one seems to have any reasons for why it is a problem. Is it because you are mad that you are not getting spawn points from your uplinks due to people stacking theirs on top? Oh an please dont say WP farming for orbitals because no points are awarded until it is used meaning that there was some value in where it was placed. If you read the thread, the lag and frame rate are the principle issues behind the spam. The server is having to struggle with processing dozens of these equipment items and that is just on one match alone. There are dozens of matches occurring every hour in the game at once with 16vs16 teams. Imagine when the team size increases to say... 24vs24 or 32vs32, etc. It will be a war on lag because of the equipment spam. If that's what's straining the server, then CCP has much more serious, underlying issues they need to deal with other than nerfing yet another skill tree that folks have spent skill points on. And, when you think about it, a dozen spawn points and similar number of nanohives shouldn't be straining CCP's server. After all, EVE usually has anywhere from 20,000 to 40,000 players on simultaneously, along with massive battles much larger than anything Dust 514 could hope to achieve, and yet the EVE side of things seem to hold up pretty well. Dust 514 is lucky to have 2,000 to 4,000 players on at any one time, in smaller matches ... yet this is somehow straining CCP's Tranquility server? Yeah, if that's the case, then CCP has far bigger issues to worry about. EVE is just a streamlined GUI of pretty space particles hiding a very simple set of mathematical processes. It is also all done client-side, if memory serves, so the servers don't need to worry about RENDERING that Avatar, just that it is THERE and moving THIS way at THAT speed. DUST needs to render the people in such a way that everyone can see whaere everyone is at all times. Imagine if DUST just updated our positions and actions every half-second or so. Finally, Equipment has to run several physics checks to see where it will settle, and once it does it spews tons of particles. Imagine any other game with an effect similar to the nanohives, and you'll find that it isn't that far fetched to see the lag issue. Furthermore, there is no hard-cap on deployed equipment or on equipment being tied to the suit, so even if it were miniscule amounts of memory taken up by each, it would rapidly and exponentially rise due to there being no limiting factors. If I may cite TF2, and if I can't then screw off, my post :3, they have the Engineer. The Engineer can build ONE Dispenser (nanohive), and two parts to ONE Teleporter (Point A to Point B Drop Uplink). If the Engineer switches classes, all of his building disappear to prevent the entire tea from just going Engie for a few minutes and spamming their one building. It's not a complicated system, and one DUST should copy. ECM Equipment
deezy dabest Warpoint Sharx 86	Posted - 2013.11.11 19:30:00 - [25] - Quote Yes there is an obvious link between uplink / hive spam and lag. Shouldn't the problem with the server be fixed instead of just wiping out the thing that exposes the problem? Whats next, players are causing lag so we are going to ban everyone? Comms are causing lag so no more of that pesky communication? Now that I think about it, weapons and hit detection probably put a good load on the server so how about we remove all of those and we will all just run around meleeing each other.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 1908	Posted - 2013.11.11 19:38:00 - [26] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: I'd suggest a hard limit per mercenary. I think the most any single uplink module can deploy is three so that would be my vote. Your limit and placement shouldn't limit any other merc's uplinks. If you want to drop them all in a pile then fine. But, I don't see the point in doing that. I can't think of any good reason tactically for a single merc to have more than 6 out at a time. For a 5 point map this allow one at each point as well as an uplink on a tower. Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 20	Posted - 2013.11.11 19:49:00 - [27] - Quote I agree that anything that can be done to reduce lag is a good thing. So despite all the abuses that can be done with limiting the number of uplinks per team, I think this is a quick and simple solution. Find out what the optimal number is for both teams to have active at the same time and then use that as an initial basis for each team (hopefully not less than 10). Also put up a total number of uplinks for you side currently in play on the HUD like above or below the number of clones left. The way someone doesn't waste time trying to place an uplink when they are already full. On another note, right now with all the uplink spam and nanohive spam it defeats the purpose of any of their scan res dampeners. Pretty much some sniper thinks he can say hidden and snipe away, but forgets that the nanohive or uplink he put down gives away his position on a good scan. In cases where front-liners spam all of them it gives away the direction they came from and can be used to flank them. And best of all, I can just lob a flux grenade around a corner or over a wall and it gets rid of all of them anyways. ;)
Sana Rayya WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL 381	Posted - 2013.11.11 19:49:00 - [28] - Quote A hard cap of 3 per merc may as well not be a cap at all, since you can still get 48 uplinks on the field. For PC, I can guarantee that everyone I'd know would start with an uplink on their fit so this number could be reached with relative ease. Similarly, a team cap would have to be such that it could not conceivably be maxed out by one person (topping out at 25 active uplinks including AUR versions) and therefore again, it might as well not exist. Outside of PC, how many matches do you see with more than 20-30 uplinks spammed by one side? I rarely see more than this because at a certain point it becomes a useless waste of time to spam them because your WP gains are minimal with so many to choose from, and you're therefore risking a suit and spending time for little gain. Having uplinks pop with the death of a merc is also a bad idea; it promotes one sided protostomps by preventing the weaker team from spawning into an action area while they are subsequently being wiped out. It is also an equipment nerf, requiring logis and other classes to devote a slot to uplinks for an entire match just to ensure that they have a chance at remaining in a contested area and putting up a fight.
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 1795	Posted - 2013.11.11 20:49:00 - [29] - Quote The lag issue may very well be client side and could possibly be resolved with improved graphics code. Still, with 32 mercs and a limit of 3 per merc that is a whole lot of uplinks that could be on the field. I don't care about not earning WP because someone chooses one of the dozens of other links. AKA: Rees Noturana https://twitter.com/reesnoturana
deezy dabest Warpoint Sharx 87	Posted - 2013.11.12 12:45:00 - [30] - Quote Any limit on uplinks / hives is BEGGING for trollage and would probably create MORE server load than what is already there by forcing it to not only do what its doing now but also track placement / order of placement etc.. Lets say you make it so that once you drop your limit no more can be dropped. What happens when some logi drops out of the MCC hits the redline supply depot and immediately spams the limit right there? YOU LOSE, not to mention the fact that so few people would run logi we would probably never see any equipment anyway due to the fact that no one is going to gamble a 100k squishy suit on maybe being able to put his equipment down. Then lets say instead you simply blow up the earliest placed equipment when a new piece over the limit is dropped, now that same logi waits until you are mid firefight grabs the redline SD and proceeds to remove all of your equipment on the front line. Have fun not getting pushed back with all your hives and uplinks gone. I can go on and on with the scenarios of how any of the limits is a bad idea but its all hypothetical garbage so I will just get to my point. FIX THE EFFING SERVER IF ITS LAGGING. REMOVING PARTS OF THE GAME TO TRY TO WORKAROUND THE SOLUTION LEADS TO A BIG FAT NOTHING.



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