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Templar 514
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
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Posted - 2013.11.09 20:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
Mossellia Delt wrote:People like you are the problem unless you're being sarcastic.
Heavies can use any weapon, its their choice to use the HMG over something else. But complaining the suit itself is underpowered because a gun is doesnt make it underpowered.
As someone who was a full-time heavy in Chrome, and is currently a part time heavy (long story, don't ask), the only reason I feel a need to pull out my heavy suit these days, comes down to the following:
1. I have a stock of HMGs and leftover suits to burn, because I dislike the visual clutter of my inventory.
2. I need a FG to kill a tank, or to slather myself in the delicious warpoints of destroyed turrets and the tears of dorks who dislike FG sniping.
That's it. The problem with the argument "heavies can use all weapons, stop crying", is that the heavy suit is defined by its ability to carry heavy weapons. When a heavy weapon is being outperformed by a light weapon (like how the AR whips the HMG, since, well, pretty much late Chrome really), then there is a problem. In many respects, heavy suits are fine.
I do think that the slot layout difference between the heavy frame and sentinel is... awkward, and the sentinel skill bonuses need a massive overhaul (flat 2% heavy weap reload bonus, and a bonus for a heavy weapon we do not have! really CCP?!), but the basic features of the heavy suit (excluding the Commando, which has its own issues, though some of them have been alleviated by Uprising 1.6) are generally solid.
Again, however, the flaw is that the heavy as a class is defined by that heavy weapon slot. Yes, it cascades down, and you can put any infantry weapon you please into that slot, but the problem is that currently, the reasons to do so should be "Well, I've got a CQC infantry blender, and a long-range blapgun, but I'd really like some mid-range anti-infantry and maybe some long-range high-accuracy anti-infantry capability", at which point you get LR heavies and sniper heavies.
Incidentally, both options were a pretty big thing in Chrome- LR heavies not some much anymore, and sniper heavies are often being replaced by sniper logis, but that has more to do with slot layouts (or rather, the slight dearth of high slots on heavies to use for damage mods).
TL;DR (because I know you didn't since you are obviously a heavy hater who knows nothing about heavies), the problem isn't the suit, it's that the defining feature of the heavy class, that being heavy weapons, are being outmoded by light-class weapons that are better put to use on medium frame suits.
ED. Note:
THUNDERGROOVE wrote:I only go positive with my sentinel if I go at least advanced. But usually only run proto because the HMG is **** otherwise. At least in medium frames you can compete using standard gear, if your SP is in the right places. In the meantime I'll run my proto sentinel with KinCats and cardiac regulators instead of plates, because despite what everyone thinks, HP is not everything in the game that matters. With two enhanced KinCats I can run faster then my logis and have more shields and armor than them still  On a related note; The heavy suit is **** because of our only weapon that can be used in a manor similar to the majority of light weapons. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you should use a heavy suit for heavy weapons not the other way around.
Have a like, heavybro. Also, if I could double-like your post, I would, because the school of Sports Turtle is obviously doing well for itself.
Alas, I have not the skill(points) to be the Sports Turtle- you have my envy, good sir. |
Templar 514
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
32
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Posted - 2013.11.09 21:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Mossellia Delt wrote:You know nothing of me, as someone who did play Heavy during Chromo as well ( Moselder was heavy, Medrean - Logi and this character a scout / pilot) I know the heavy roll and Im saving my SP currently to spec into minmatar heavies once they are released.
And the limit on choices of heavy weapons maybe be a problem but my entire thread is about the suit itself not being underpowered.
You want to feel a REAL underpowered suit? Spec into scouts which can run you 180k isk with less then 300 HP. Then you can complain.
Your post comes across as an entirely self-righteous "heavy dudes are just bad at their class and should stop whining about being UP" viewpoint, which is chronically held by everyone who does not at least use the heavy suit in a semi-dedicated manner.*
As such, the following quote (Oh God I'm agreeing with someone in EoN., the horror I feel is inexpressible):
Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:The suit doesn't mean a thing when the weapon doesn't offer the opportunity to kill.
In other words having 400hp or 600hp means nothing. You just live a little longer to shoot spitballs at red dots. The bonus for the Sentinel suit sucks though. Just what i wanted though, a bonus for a weapon not in the game yet (scrambler HMG? Laser HMG?)
Very nicely illustrates the point, as does this one:
THUNDERGROOVE wrote:On a related note;
The heavy suit is **** because of our only weapon that can be used in a manor similar to the majority of light weapons. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you should use a heavy suit for heavy weapons not the other way around.
The whole idea of the heavy frame/sentinel suits is that you choose to skill into them solely to make use of heavy weapons. If we wanted to primarily make use of light-class weapons on a heavy suit, then in an ideal world we'd pick the Commando. But we wanted to be heavy because we wanted to make use of the enormously powerful heavy weapons.
Except that the anti-infantry heavy weapon we have is incapable of supplying us with all of the appropriate capability we require. The HMG being outranged by the AR isn't really the problem either- that's something which must be accepted in order to provide balance. The real issue is that the HMG is incapable of standing toe-to-toe with a medium frame AR user, and winning.
Part of this is because of the stupid hitreg with the HMG, in that the incredibly, ridiculously tiny center dot of the reticle MUST be on target in order for ANY hits to be registered. This, incidentally, is how a player is able to strafe their way through streams of HMG fire and take little to no damage. Even a shotgun would get partial hits on, and any AR user would gun their opponent down with impunity.
So yes, more heavy weapons would certainly go a long ways to fixing this problem. More heavy suit options would as well, However, there are still some innate problems with the HMG, and there is a MASSIVE issue with anyone claiming that heavies should use ARs instead of HMGs if HMGs are bad, because the HMG is a heavy weapon, and thusly is 90% of the point of using a heavy suit.
If somebody told you "Oh, ARs suck, so just use an SMG instead because those are awesome", would you thank them for their advice, or tell them that they're an idiot for not recognizing the fundamental problem of the comparison- that being that a smaller class of weapon is outperforming the larger version in the same role. I know which I would do. |
Templar 514
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Amarr Empire
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Posted - 2013.11.11 05:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Mossellia Delt wrote:Heavies have access to every weapon, not just heavy weapons last I checked.
Because you (pointing to many in this thread) dont want to use different weapons for diffent situations is your problem. The Assault Rifle is over powered, and the HMG is only under powered because the AR.
Not yet have I heard someone say AR vs Nova knives are unfair, AR is too strong. Everyone instead accepts that if you are "this" distance away with Nova Knives you should die, why not look at it the same way with the HMG.
Im getting sick of heavies bitching about this crap. Now im good at this game, theres no doubt to that, if you've seen me on a regular basis you know this. I can play my prototype scout using my prototype weapons and I have to struggle to kick as much ass as I do. Now I can jump on my mlt heavy with std HMG and breeze through enemies no problem, even easier if I use my adv FG.
To be honest everything is 10 times easier on the mlt heavy then it is on my scout using every weapon I have sans the knives.
So sorry if I dont feel sympathy that I can survive longer then 0.5 seconds vs weapon fire like im use to and only spend about 10k isk instead of 150k isk.
/facepalm.
Look, I'm going to not be characteristically long-winded about this, and I will obey the KISS principal, because you obviously have no reading comprehension whatsoever. I'll even use bullet points to make it easy to understand.
1. The ENTIRE point of the Heavy dropsuit class is to carry and employ heavy-class weapons.
2. Yes, you can put any other kind of weapon into a heavy weapon slot. No, this is generally not a good idea.
3. If the entire point of the heavy class is to carry heavy weapons, THEN WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO USE AN AR?! The HMG should be the far more attractive choice for a short-medium range full-auto bullet hose, if you're a heavy.
For the record, the reason NKs are generally considered acceptable (and even then, dedicated knifers will immediately call you out and call you an idiot for thinking this) is because they are mostly-functional. You get close enough, then there is very little that can actually survive being stabbed in the back. Or in the face, if it's a really good NK'er. The flaw in your reasoning is ultimately that it is understood that NKs require a particular type of suit to take advantage of- usually scouts, for their speed and stealth- but NKs can be put onto any suit in the game.
The HMG can only be carried by heavy suits. See above bullet points as to why your argument is flawed and makes you look like you are unable to read. |
Templar 514
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Amarr Empire
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Posted - 2013.11.11 08:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mossellia Delt wrote:Then lobby for the nerf of the AR not the buff of the HMG. Scouts being as thin as THEY are dont need heavies doing more damage. Heavies being as heavy as they are dont need more HP (3 - 6 shotgun shots to bring one dont if they register at all) and Just so you know, Nova Knives are better used on assault and logi suits then Scouts.
If you buff the heavy any more you're causing the scout to become even more useless and its nearly dead anyways, at the very least heavies have forgeguns to keep them as a playable class alive.
.......Since when have I been saying "heavies are UP, and need a buff"? All I'm pointing out is that you're saying stupid things about heavies needing to HTFU about their situation, when the truth is no, they shouldn't HTFU, they should complain, and CCP should fix the problem.
Quite frankly, I don't think a raw EHP buff will ever really make heavies awesome and balanced. IMO, I'd say that a damage resistance buff would be far better, but that's an entirely different topic than the discussion at hand.
When it comes down to it, right now, before we know what is in 1.7 (besides the RR and CR), I'd rather petition CCP to fix the HMG hitreg problem, and decrease the dispersion of the Assault HMG variant across the board, as well as changing the AssHMG to have an decreased accuracy-spool time.
There, we've given heavies a solid bandaid that isn't going to hurt to pull off if we have to in order to implement new heavy weapons in a balanced fashion. That's not so hard to figure out, now is it.
Also, scoutbro problems should be brought up by scoutbros. I think it's important for heavybros to go, "hey, scoutbros need some love too", but then the heavybros should refer to threads made by the scoutbros. Further, this thread wasn't about scout problems, it was about you whinging on about how you think that heavies should HTFU because they can just slap an AR on their suit and call it a day.
Finally, it's really the general problem with the very low TTK in DUST right now that both heavies and scouts are struggling along right now.
As a final note to you, explain in detail and with logic why nova knives should be used on a medium frame suit as a primary weapon choice.
God Hates Lags wrote:No, the heavy suit is "underpowered" now because it gets a far worse deal with TTK as it is now because HP means less than it ever has before. If AR, SMG and SCR are nerfed though TTK should return back to normal and the suit itself won't need a buff.
I don't think a general AR/SMG/ScR nerf will fix TTK problems. A general EHP buff, on the other, would probably be a much better start.
Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:Here, I'll tell you what heavies need to do their job:
- Less bullet spread on HMGs
- If decreasing spread is not an option, increase DMG
- If increasing DMG is not an option, increase HP by AT LEAST 50%
- If that's not an option, take the class out the game, take scouts out of the game, and let only medium suits play.
I don't think an EHP buff is really going to help much, without making the heavy brokenly powerful. I also think that the HMG should start off with high spread, but very rapidly become very accurate within its optimal range. See above for my thoughts on at least band-aiding the HMG until we learn what more gubbins CCP has in store for DUST.
Ludvig Enraga wrote:I think the problem with heavies is that they crap for situation awareness. I run a scout suit and always sneak up on heavies from behind getting pretty easy kills with plasma cannon. I don't see much of a problem with this. I barely ever see heavies use cover, they too often run around solo thinking that they are a mini-Tank.
When I think of a heavy I think it was meant to be played as a part of a squad with logis close by repping them. If you run by urself or you are out in the open in a heavy suit, you deserve to die.
Disclosure: I've only run A-1 in this build, I dont run heavy as my main.
The majority of players, I find, are terminally stupid. It's kind of sad, really. That being said, I think part of your experience is that you run a scout, and are thus stealthier, faster, flimsier, and thus generally required to play smarter not harder right out of the box.
A heavy player will probably gravitate because of "HEAVY STRONK, with STRONK HEAVY GUN", and only gradually realize that you've got to actually use your brain nearly, or even just as much, as a scout. Cyrius Li-Moody made a video about NK hitreg in 1.6, but did comment tangentially about the archetype of heavies being generally stupid. I think that archetype is probably a result of the general idea of the heavy- you're a big, strong, tough, clone soldier, who gets even bigger, stronger, and tougher by using a heavy suit, and you're supposed to carry the most destructive weapons in the game. Most players will automatically think they are somewhat invincible, and particularly in the scout vs heavy dynamic, the average heavy will consider a scout to be a light snack to be served before the appetizers and main course of enemy medium/heavy frames and vehicles, respectively.
Then suddenly a scout baits a heavy into a REX trap, and ruins that innocence of indestructibility forever. Such is DUST.
In any case, the real thing I wanted to bring up to you is that I STRONGLY disagree that it should be nearly or entirely impossible to run solo as a heavy. I run solo pretty much 99% of the time, so it's important that I be able to function on my own and unsupported. I do not think that heavies should be able to do this easily, but I do think it should be possible. |
Templar 514
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
38
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Posted - 2013.11.11 19:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mossellia Delt wrote:take Cal logi + nova knives
Highs - 3 complex Myofibril
2 shield extenders
Lows
2 complex Catalyzers
2 complex regulators
Callogi is now faster, has more stamina, can use MELEE better then any of the scout suits, has more EHP and raw HP
Gal logi + nova knives
highs - 3 complex myfiber
Lows - 2 complex Catalyzers
2 complex regulators
1 complex plate
Same thing happens, faster, more stamina, melee is better, more EHP and raw HP
on and on, this formula can also be used by assaults and logi's of the other two races.
If you had tried to use the Amarr Logi as the example, I might have believed you. As it is, those two fits are the most moronic things I have ever seen in DUST. Also, Myofibril Stimulants do not affect NKs. Ask any NK'er, and they'll easily tell you that you have made a bad NK fit.
The least you could have done would be to fit Sidearm Damage mods (which DO affect NKs). Also, sure, the fits you've presented might be passable. But a Scout will still do better since they can carry another weapon in addition to the NKs, and have a smaller hitbox, and be more difficult to scan down. Unless your profile dampening skills are maxed, the cheapest of Scanners will light you up like a Christmas tree.
Mossellia Delt wrote:An EHP buff to heavies would make scouts all but useless against them. Scout would need near instant kill potental alpha damage within 10 meters if EHP goes up.
Your reading comprehension fail continues to go on. My comments regarding a general, as in, for all classes, EHP buff is in regards to the incredibly low TTK issues that are affecting everybody in the game.
Also, you seem to be obsessed with your ability to kill a heavy while using a scout suit. For the record, the average heavy doesn't really act all that intelligently, and is generally easy to bait into a Remote trap. There, you now have 1500 alpha damage, and if that doesn't kill a heavy, a few shotgun blasts (or even a grenade or two) will easily finish them off.
Seriously, the maximum EHP a proto heavy can get right now is ~1700-1800 EHP. A STD-level Locus Grenade will easily wipe a heavy off the map after taking a Remote Explosive to the face.
For the record, the whole basis of scout vs heavy balance is supposed to be that the scout can outmaneuver the heavy, and is also unable to be seen by the heavy. Heavies are (EWAR wise) big and noisy. Get your scan skills up, and you'll be able to see us coming from miles away, while we'll never know you're there until you stab us in the back.
Mossellia Delt wrote:Templar 514 wrote:I don't think a general AR/SMG/ScR nerf will fix TTK problems. A general EHP buff, on the other, would probably be a much better start.
I don't think an EHP buff is really going to help much, without making the heavy brokenly powerful. I also think that the HMG should start off with high spread, but very rapidly become very accurate within its optimal range. See above for my thoughts on at least band-aiding the HMG until we learn what more gubbins CCP has in store for DUST. haha oh wow, almost missed you contridicting yourself in the same post.
Key things, even bullet pointed to aid your ability to understand the point I am making:
1. The reference to general EHP is in regards to the current issues with incredibly low TTK, since those issues are not limited to the AR/AScR/SMG weapons, but are rather universal.
2. I am speaking of a specific buff to the heavy class's EHP. A raw EHP buff of the heavy would eventually end with heavies having as much health as an HAV. While this is appealing to a degree, it would also be brokenly OP.
To recap, just in case your ability to read is still so bad that you understand nothing:
I'm not contradicting (protip: there's an "A" in the word "contrAdicting") myself, I'm actually making two different observations, these being:
1. TTK is much too low right now, so a general EHP buff to EVERY SINGLE CLASS in the game, would probably help alleviate some of that problem. I don't think it would fix it, but it would probably help- scouts in particular, since you seem so hung up on scouts not being able to kill heavies.
2. An EHP buff to ONLY the heavy suit would very easily and very quickly become OP, and so a different solution should be sought after. |
Templar 514
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
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Posted - 2013.11.12 02:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
The OP is obviously clueless. Allow me to demonstrate:
Mossellia Delt wrote:You obviously dont understand nova knives, first nova knives increase base melee damage when using MELEE not the strike or charged strike.
..........You have no idea how NKs work. CCP's tagging system classifies them as a sidearm weapon, which is why they go into a sidearm slot and are found in the sidearm section of the marketplace. If they actually did just buff your melee damage, then answer the following question:
Why does the Minmatar Scout have a bonus to both melee and NK damage?
Mossellia Delt wrote:Second, Iv seen logi's and assaults using the knives to better effect then any scout because they can take some damage before instantly dying.
This is an arguably valid point at present, but this is more because scout suits are UP. Scout problems are not the topic of this thread, as the title is "On the matter of the heavy suit". As such, it's supposed to discuss problems that heavies are having.
If you want to discuss scout problems, then make a separate thread about it, because people are coming to this thread to talk about HEAVY problems, not SCOUT problems.
Mossellia Delt wrote:Maybe you should see me play when im getting 20+ kills in an ambush with nova knives.
I find any quoted performance for Ambush matches to automatically be suspect. In fact, I find quoted kill performance for any game mode to automatically be suspect. Can you provide third-party verifiable sources that indicate that 60-70%+ of all Ambush matches that you use NKs, and only NKs, in, you go 20+ kills?
Mossellia Delt wrote:Maybe you should talk to other scouts who I play with and you'll get that im in the upper ranks of scout badassery.
I checked the Scout Registry, and you're not on it, so obviously you are not actually a scout. And I checked for your alts names as well, so don't bother pulling that card.
Of course, you can provide the names of some of the scouts who play with you and I can follow up on this claim of yours.
But I doubt that you'll do that.
Mossellia Delt wrote:Guess what, the whole scan issue is bullshit, maybe read into it a bit. Medium frames have the same base scan radius as light suits.
You are obviously an idiot, because you would know this is false as of Uprising 1.6.
Also, Light frames/Scouts have a reduced scan profile and better scan precision than everybody else by default. Maybe you should pay more attention to passive scanner mechanics. |
Templar 514
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Amarr Empire
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Posted - 2013.11.12 02:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Continued due to quote volume.
Mossellia Delt wrote:So lets force scouts to use specific equipment or weapons. Maybe if we had more then one equipment slot we could fit REs, but I for one use hives, and I know many use uplinks or scanners. Dont shoe horn us into REs.
There's no reason that you cannot swap suits mid-battle. There's also no reason that you can't fit to counter a specific situation. In fact, fitting to counter specific threats is kind of a thing in DUST. You fit AV weapons to kill vehicles, you fit anti-infantry weapons to kill infantry.
MDs for area denial and turning chokepoints into killboxes, Sniper Rifles to kill people from halfway across the map, Shotguns for CQC dominance, you get the idea.
Mossellia Delt wrote:As for the weapons not all scouts use shotguns, we use all manner of weapons. But guess what, no matter what we use, Assaults and logis use them better.
There's nothing wrong with Scouts using any weapon they want to. I do want to note that many Scouts like to carry grenades on one or two of their fits, so it's perfectly reasonable to think that a scout player might decide, "hmm, I want to be able to kill heavies, well, if I fit Remotes and some Locus Grenades, then I can bait them into a trap with my soft and squishy self, since heavies generally take the bait".
Also, any problems with medium frame suits using light weapons better than a light suit can is something to be brought up in a thread that's about Scouts. There's a "Create New Topic" button on the forums, use it.
Mossellia Delt wrote:And the last part "the whole basis of scout vs heavy balance is supposed to be that the scout can outmaneuver the heavy" IS kinda imposible since heavies can turn as fast as scouts. Which doesnt allow us to run around them without being instant killed.
I'm not saying outmaneuver=run rings around a heavy. I'm saying outmaneuver=sneak up behind a heavy.
Look, most players that play scout know that they are flimsy and fast and sneaky, and so they play to their strengths and minimize their weaknesses as best they can, since they, like heavies, have drastic differences between the two aspects. Unlike medium frames, which are more generalized and (supposed to) have lesser strengths and lesser weaknesses, light and heavy suits are much more specialized.
So you build around those limitations, while taking advantage of the strengths that you gain.
Mossellia Delt wrote:Play a scout, even a mlt one, for a few games. Now imagine that but it costs you 150k isk a suit. It dies to 0.5 of a second of incoming fire, grenades instant kill no matter what, and we cant make any mistake or its instantly fatal. WE CANT EVEN SURVIVE A SMALL FALL.
I have both a Dragonfly and a Dren Scout BPO. I have played with scout fits to what degree I can, since there isn't an Amarr Scout yet. First off, there's no reason to run proto all the time if you die so rapidly. Secondly, TTK is so low right now that that sort of experience is the norm.
Third, I have survived dozens of small falls in a Scout suit. Stop whining about that. Finally, you knew that Scouts were fragile and that mistakes would generally see you off to a new clone, so stop whining when you are getting exactly what you signed up for.
If I ran Scout more often, I wouldn't mind dying if I screwed up, since it'd be my own fault. Quite frankly, even a heavy will die if he screws up, since he's too slow to try and run away, and two or three players will whittle him down to nothing, even in a protoheavy suit.
Mossellia Delt wrote:You cant read then
9126 - Mossellia Delt (201, 0) on the scout registory. Go ask shotty how well I use the scout since I play with him oftan.
There's a lot of entries, and I glanced through.
Also, I find that I don't really care what you have to say about NKs. If Maken Tosch says stuff about them, I listen- he has easily established his credibility as a dedicated NK'er. In fact, I think I've even been stabbed in the face a couple times by him, so I do have some first-hand experience of dying on his blades.
OTOH, you have established no verifiable evidence of your credibility on, well, any of the issues your bringing up. Further, you keep distracting the purpose of the thread with whinging about "oh, if you buff heavies then scouts will be powerless against them!"
Just shut up about it already! You've clearly established that you think scouts are in a bad place right now, so go make a new thread about that to get more discussion rolling so CCP can get things done sooner. |
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Posted - 2013.11.12 03:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
More quote volume!
Mossellia Delt wrote:You never see people looking for scouts in EoN PC, they wont even accept scouts for PC battles last I checked.
Two things:
1. You're not in EoN. Why do you care?
2. PC dorks want teams of Assault dudes to murder everything. They don't care about heavies unless they have FGs, and even then it's just so they can tower camp.
Proof here:
Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:Heavies have no place in PC... other than rooftop campers with FGs. If you see a heavy it's because they can't get another Assault player, OR you put 2-4 heavies in a room and tell them defend that.
This guy is in EoN. and is a self-proclaimed heavy. However, I assume if someone decided to find some other EoN. dorks who were also in Lance's corp, they would confirm that Lance is a protoheavybro, and no longer uses it except for specific situations called for by the alliance/corp during PC battles, or pub matches.
And while I hate agreeing with PC corps about anything, it is true that judging performance based on pub matches is dumb. At least start in the FW arenas, where player groups tend to be much more encouraged to organize themselves. |
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Posted - 2013.11.12 03:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mossellia Delt wrote:I started scouts in chromo and spec straight into them in uprising, I didnt sign up for being constantly nerfed into oblivion. I remember when we could, you know, strafe, before AR and heavies bitched about us being OP because of it.
I believe more learned minds than mine have already established that mega-death-strafe-speeds of scouts in ages past actually broke the HD completely, making said scouts invincible.
Further, you did sign up to be paper thin and incredibly sneaky and mobile. Now I will agree, there is probably tweaking needed to emphasize the mobility of scouts, and I certainly think that there is some changes that need to be made to emphasize the sneakiness of scouts.
But those things should be discussed in a thread dedicated to the topic of scouts.
Mossellia Delt wrote:Once again, you have no idea who I am, my alts have been in Not Guilty, Pure Innocence and The Generals. So yes, iv been in EoN.
You never stated such. Since this is the case, I will ask anyone else in EoN. who posts in this thread to confirm this information. You understand, of course, that I'm not just going to take your word for it.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, as the saying goes.
Mossellia Delt wrote:I run prototype mimatar scout suits you ****, and maybe you should check the market prices, the scotu suit and sentinal are the same price.
The Sentinel A/1-Series costs ~13,000 ISK. The Scout M/1-Series costs 8k ISK on the dot, the same as every other non-heavy suit in the game.
The Heavy Frame has it even worse compared to your minja suit, since the Heavy Frame A/1-Series costs at least 21k ISK.
And again, there's nothing that requires to you run minja suits all the time. And if you're really a part of EoN., then why are you not rolling in ISK from being a PC corp, thus allowing you to run proto 24/7? |
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Posted - 2013.11.13 00:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
lok rark wrote:See im stupid... not only did i get drawn into a scout thread, I was right about the price and let you call me on it.  Heavies attract people with low level intellect I heard so...  Why dont you have heavy on your sig 
Technically, this is a thread that boils down to the OP whinging about how heavybros should HTFU, because really it's the scoutbros that need love.
OP should really have just made a thread about how scoutbros need love, and simply kept their mouth shut about heavybro problems, which they obviously have no understanding of.
On the subject of the average intelligence of a heavybro..... Well, I'll admit it. Heavybros do have an archetype of doing stupid stuff (like being constantly baited into Remo traps by wily scoutbros), but I'd also argue that the good, and even moderately-okay heavybros, tend to have to play in similarly smart ways as scouts. Not the same way, mind, but both must play smart- the heavy is slow, and thus can't run away, while the scout is flimsy, and thus will probably not live to run away.
If either one bites off more than they can chew, neither will live to see themselves out of the fight. The only difference is that heavies just take a little more time to die, if you go by EHP vs DPS.
As a part time heavy, and occasional dabbler in things scouty, I do think that both require significant intelligence. The heavy just plays more methodically, while scouts are a bit twitchier.
Moselder Telend wrote:Me posting on this character whos in EoN proof enough?
That'll suffice. This being said, since you are in EoN., why can't you transfer the effectively infinite amount of ISK you acquire from PC to keep yourself swimming in proto minja suits from here to the end of the world?
Also, since I assume that the toon you used to post the thread is your scout alt, and is obviously not affiliated with EoN. aside from being your alt, why do you care that EoN. doesn't call for scout players? You obviously already have the SP investment into a role that is considered desirable to EoN. (which scouts apparently aren't, according to you*), so what's the problem here?
*The only other EoN. member to post in this thread has commented that scouts are apparently used by EoN. Maybe it's a corp thing, and Pure Innocence. doesn't like scouts, while SyNergy Gaming does? If that's the case, maybe you should request a corp transfer to SyNergy Gaming if they happen to like scouts. |
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Templar 514
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
39
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Posted - 2013.11.13 22:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:I'll be honest: I haven't been having too much trouble in FW. My experience there reflects my experience in pubs pretty well. Which is: HMG is still beast in tight areas with lots of cover. HMG dies everywhere else.
I don't think the gun needs a tremendous buff, the -5% dispersion/level Sharpshooter skill would do the trick.
And if CCP introduced a legitimate weapon option that covers the effective engagement chasm between HMG and Forge Gun, Heavy as a class would be in pretty good shape.
It's just hard getting CCP to acknowledge we exist. It's: "No comment. No comment. No comment. Oh yeah. Heavies. Here guys, have something you never asked for and have next to no interest in!" (e.g. Commando, HP Buff)
Then again, Scouts get the same treatment with the scan range "buff"...
Hmm. Interesting. Certainly I think that the HMG generally dominates in close quarter engagements, but there are some mechanical problems with its usage (see here for a very thorough examination of HMG hitreg mechanics (also, not mine, but very informative)).
That said, I actually think that if the dispersion was functioning more similarly to the shotgun (ref video to see why it currently isn't that way), then just increasing the rate at which the dispersion tightens would go a long way towards helping its damage application.
That, along with an increase in the falloff range of the Assault variant of the HMG would certainly go a long ways towards helping out HMG heavies specifically, as well as broadening heavy options generally for the time being. Of course, I do definitely agree that some heavy weapons that lie between HMG and FG effective engagement ranges would be way better. Partly because more huegguns is good, and partly because more content in general is good.
As an aside, I thought the Commando buff went a long way towards improving the 'lolmando'. But it's not really a heavy thing insofar as "I want to be bootylicious and carry big guns". It's more of a "I like light-class guns better, and I also think heavies are cool". Commando is a specialization that medium frame guys might take later on to branch out, or that you might start off with to get the (supposed) versatility of two light-class weapons.
If we had more variety in the form of weapons aping the function of the launcher-type weapons (MD, PlasCan, Swarms), then I'd say it would actually be more popular.
As far as the Scout 'buff'.... I'll keep this as brief as I can, but I don't think it's enough. I do think it's an interesting start, though. It was also a pretty solid perk for users of the Gallente Scout, because now you can get amazing scan range through skills alone, and insane scan range through the careful application of modules. It is also likely an aid to Minjas, though probably not much of one.
I don't dig it. The main issue is that a stationary heavy is a dead heavy (I can't count the number of HMG heavy vs HMG heavy duels I've won simply by strafing), and any "long-range anti-infantry" heavy weapon would really need to outrange the rifles.
It's somewhat clear that the Assault HMG is supposed to be the equal in range to the AR (even though it currently isn't), so a proper long-range heavy weapon would need superior-to-AR distance to it, especially considering the fact that heavies can't really run away from a fight- they're just too slow. Once they start shooting, they've committed to the firefight, while even a medium-frame user can generally just run away. |
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