DUST Search - [Request] Rebalance CQC

Cass Caul wrote:

Meeko Fent wrote:

Cass Caul wrote:

Meeko Fent wrote:

I can agree with everything here besides the reducing AA bit, and the mechanics bit, excluding the scout mechanics part.

I feel AA is just fine, I know you scouts are beaten to death by it, but that's where making you guys fast enough to effectively outrun the bullets will help.

That, and I feel that med frames turn slow enough already (From a DS3 standpoint, it takes between 1-2 seconds to do a complete 180) and that people already through a bitchie fit about heavies being ballerinas.

So, make scout fast enough to outrun bullets, and the other points I find a good idea, however they should be taken in a moderate way.

Aim Assist is fine, I guess, but it's the Sharpshooter skill. The Sharpshooter "skill" this time around is what makes the AR overpowered. Aiming down sight should be the only way to have the ridiculous accuracy that the AR has. Even the Scrambler Rifle, it has more dispersion using ADS than it does hip-firing, except for ADS while moving (don't really understand why the ScR is more accurate while you move, but whatever).

But, my recent conversion to the medium suit today has me feeling sluggish as I turn around. I got destroyed in my 1k HP logi suit as Valor G-1 scout danced around me and I couldn't turn fast enough. So that point I agree.

Last bit, Scouts can't go any faster. The shoddy hit-detection only gets worse at those speeds. Also the shotgun hit-detection doesn't work as well when you're zooming around the map at 10m/s compared to 8m/s.

Have we not fixed the hit detection lately?

If you check the latest patch notes they'll say they improved hit-detection. Improved being the key word here. There are still times where you will have false hits with the shotgun. Now it just becomes a single shot not dealing damage rather than a whole clip.

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Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis 2100	Posted - 2013.11.08 04:44:00 - [1] - Quote Hi CCP! Hit detection improvements are a leap forward, but CQC combat has taken a big hit and could use some fine tuning. In a hurry, if at all possible. I'm 99% certain that Tranquility data will back up my observations and concerns. Here are my recommendations, based purely upon personal observations of what's not working and what's working too well. : Primary Weapons HMG: Increase range, decrease dispersion. Shotgun: Increase range, increase damage. Automatic Scrambler Rifle: Add ADS delay, increase hip-fire dispersion, reduce AA. Automatic Assault Rifle: Add ADS delay, increase hip-fire dispersion, reduce AA. Plasma Cannon: Increase blast radius and damage; decrease reload speed. Mass Driver: Add feedback damage penalty or minimum arming distance (excluding direct hit). Secondary Weapons Nova Knives: Fix hit detection. Flaylock Pistol: Increase projectile speed. Mechanics Assault: Decrease strafe speed, decrease rotation speed. Logi: Decrease strafe speed, decrease rotation speed. Heavy: Increase strafe speed, increase rotation speed. Scout: Increase strafe speed, increase movement speed. Thanks for your consideration. - Shotty GoBang
Ghost Kaisar R 0 N 1 N 803	Posted - 2013.11.08 05:22:00 - [2] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: Hi CCP! Mechanics Assault: Decrease strafe speed, decrease rotation speed. Logi: Decrease strafe speed, decrease rotation speed. Heavy: Increase rotation speed. Scout: Increase strafe speed, increase walk speed. Commando: No idea. Thanks for your time and consideration. o7 - Shotty GoBang This needs to change. Since they changed the strafe and rotation speeds, scouts and light frames lost one of their greatest advantages. Maneuverability. We could strafe faster than the enemy, and could pivot faster, allowing us to use our speed to our advantage. Since everything is now the same, you must realize that with the current buff you are proposing, is that the heavy will have the fastest turn speed of all suits. I personally think we should go back to the old ways, which was that light frames had the fastest turn, med was slower, and that heavies were NOTICEABLY slower. Getting killed by pirouetting heavies gets old after awhile. "All war is deception." "He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious" -Sun Tzu
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1451	Posted - 2013.11.08 05:33:00 - [3] - Quote I can agree with everything here besides the reducing AA bit, and the mechanics bit, excluding the scout mechanics part. I feel AA is just fine, I know you scouts are beaten to death by it, but that's where making you guys fast enough to effectively outrun the bullets will help. That, and I feel that med frames turn slow enough already (From a DS3 standpoint, it takes between 1-2 seconds to do a complete 180) and that people already through a bitchie fit about heavies being ballerinas. So, make scout fast enough to outrun bullets, and the other points I find a good idea, however they should be taken in a moderate way. For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1451	Posted - 2013.11.08 05:35:00 - [4] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Shotty GoBang wrote: Hi CCP! Mechanics Assault: Decrease strafe speed, decrease rotation speed. Logi: Decrease strafe speed, decrease rotation speed. Heavy: Increase rotation speed. Scout: Increase strafe speed, increase walk speed. Commando: No idea. Thanks for your time and consideration. o7 - Shotty GoBang This needs to change. Since they changed the strafe and rotation speeds, scouts and light frames lost one of their greatest advantages. Maneuverability. We could strafe faster than the enemy, and could pivot faster, allowing us to use our speed to our advantage. Since everything is now the same, you must realize that with the current buff you are proposing, is that the heavy will have the fastest turn speed of all suits. I personally think we should go back to the old ways, which was that light frames had the fastest turn, med was slower, and that heavies were NOTICEABLY slower. Getting killed by pirouetting heavies gets old after awhile. Perhaps Meds and heavies share turn speed, and scouts turn noticeably quicker For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
Kahn Zo Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 64	Posted - 2013.11.08 06:25:00 - [5] - Quote Primary Weapons HMG: Increase range, decrease dispersion. Shotgun: Increase range. Automatic Scrambler Rifle: Increase ADS delay, increase hip-fire dispersion. Automatic Assault Rifle: Increase ADS delay, increase hip-fire dispersion. Plasma Cannon: Increase splash damage; decrease reload speed. Mass Driver: Add minimum arming distance (excluding direct hit). "All Others: OK" I have to add, not so. Sniper Rifle. The trigger rate on the sniper rifle. there is a delay around (approx) the third round chambering/ trigger pull. Nasty it is. Happened, experienced all day today. Pure Gallente
Cass Caul 256	Posted - 2013.11.08 06:26:00 - [6] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: I can agree with everything here besides the reducing AA bit, and the mechanics bit, excluding the scout mechanics part. I feel AA is just fine, I know you scouts are beaten to death by it, but that's where making you guys fast enough to effectively outrun the bullets will help. That, and I feel that med frames turn slow enough already (From a DS3 standpoint, it takes between 1-2 seconds to do a complete 180) and that people already through a bitchie fit about heavies being ballerinas. So, make scout fast enough to outrun bullets, and the other points I find a good idea, however they should be taken in a moderate way. Aim Assist is fine, I guess, but it's the Sharpshooter skill. The Sharpshooter "skill" this time around is what makes the AR overpowered. Aiming down sight should be the only way to have the ridiculous accuracy that the AR has. Even the Scrambler Rifle, it has more dispersion using ADS than it does hip-firing, except for ADS while moving (don't really understand why the ScR is more accurate while you move, but whatever). But, my recent conversion to the medium suit today has me feeling sluggish as I turn around. I got destroyed in my 1k HP logi suit as Valor G-1 scout danced around me and I couldn't turn fast enough. So that point I agree. Last bit, Scouts can't go any faster. The shoddy hit-detection only gets worse at those speeds. Also the shotgun hit-detection doesn't work as well when you're zooming around the map at 10m/s compared to 8m/s. +Éß¦ëddGêÇ -çou -Äll+É-çoGö¦
Awry Barux Shining Flame Amarr Empire 291	Posted - 2013.11.08 07:12:00 - [7] - Quote +1, especially for increasing hip-fire dispersion on the AR and ASCR- both can do the vast majority of their DPS from the hip, out to about 20m in my experience.
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz Public Disorder. 148	Posted - 2013.11.08 07:38:00 - [8] - Quote First off, this is well thought out post moving toward true weapon balance now that we have good hit detection. I only saw a few minor issues. The plasma cannon is I'll conceived garbage CCP threw at us to try to distract us from at the time a crap game. It is not needed, never wanted, oversized Flux grenade shooter that should be removed from the game. It is definitely not an AV weapon. It's only purpose is to troll. The only way to really make it work as CCP intended is to make it mini forge. One forge is enough for this game. Also, the flaylock pistol is fine. It is a close range last ditch weapon, and it works just fine as such. Adding anything to this weapon and we risk seeing it becoming used a primary by many. If anything, for all its killing ability, it needs to cost more cpu/pg. It should darnnear be in line with the sub. The low resources combined with everything it had before was why everyone was using these things in the first place.
Keri Starlight 0uter.Heaven Proficiency V. 1848	Posted - 2013.11.08 08:30:00 - [9] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: Assault: Decrease strafe speed, decrease rotation speed. Logi: Decrease strafe speed, decrease rotation speed. Heavy: Increase rotation speed. I may agree with everything, but NOT with this. Decrease rotation speed for medium frames while increasing it for Heavies? Seriously? Rotation speed for Heavies has been buffed already and its just fine. Also, I don't know which input device you use, but my rotation speed is slow as hell. Make it even slower? Wow... -Caldari Achura - One with the Universe -Tac AR Specialist "I load my gun with love instead of bullets"
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 321	Posted - 2013.11.08 13:45:00 - [10] - Quote o/ shotty! Few comments/suggestions. IF CCP would increase our (scout) movement speed, all suits could have their "max" turn speed be the same. But our movement speed in CQC needs to be every so slightly higher than that cap. That way we can "dodge bullets" I say this because moving from one frame to another (yes I too have a medium and light) prior to aim caps, I had to notability adjust my aim. This make it difficult to develop muscle memory that is so important in an FPS. Secondly, I actually don't think the burst AR is in a great place. There aren't many benefits to utilizing that weapon platform. I think the bullets need to do the same damage as the full auto version. Lastly, all explosions needs a % based decrease the farther you are from the initial explosion. Which means you won't be taking full damage from a grenade/MD when on the cusp of the blast zone. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Twitch

Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1453	Posted - 2013.11.08 14:05:00 - [11] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: I can agree with everything here besides the reducing AA bit, and the mechanics bit, excluding the scout mechanics part. I feel AA is just fine, I know you scouts are beaten to death by it, but that's where making you guys fast enough to effectively outrun the bullets will help. That, and I feel that med frames turn slow enough already (From a DS3 standpoint, it takes between 1-2 seconds to do a complete 180) and that people already through a bitchie fit about heavies being ballerinas. So, make scout fast enough to outrun bullets, and the other points I find a good idea, however they should be taken in a moderate way. Aim Assist is fine, I guess, but it's the Sharpshooter skill. The Sharpshooter "skill" this time around is what makes the AR overpowered. Aiming down sight should be the only way to have the ridiculous accuracy that the AR has. Even the Scrambler Rifle, it has more dispersion using ADS than it does hip-firing, except for ADS while moving (don't really understand why the ScR is more accurate while you move, but whatever). But, my recent conversion to the medium suit today has me feeling sluggish as I turn around. I got destroyed in my 1k HP logi suit as Valor G-1 scout danced around me and I couldn't turn fast enough. So that point I agree. Last bit, Scouts can't go any faster. The shoddy hit-detection only gets worse at those speeds. Also the shotgun hit-detection doesn't work as well when you're zooming around the map at 10m/s compared to 8m/s. Have we not fixed the hit detection lately? For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
Keeriam Miray R 0 N 1 N 93	Posted - 2013.11.08 16:25:00 - [12] - Quote i'd say also map design need's to be drastically changed & maps reworked. Not just to fit racial design but racial playstyle. We have quite a big maps but all fights takes place in small areas near objectives. More than 50% of map space are wasted & redzoned. Some maps like mAnus Peak almost absolutly no compatible with cqc\scout playstyle. Turret instalations (CRU & SD as well) placed in bad or realy stupid locations, & mostly serves as free WPs for whoever destroy them first. So big, so angry, so dead... Don't run. You'll only die tired.
CLONE117 planetary retaliation organisation 465	Posted - 2013.11.08 16:49:00 - [13] - Quote i dont see any good coming from any of the changes. accept for maybe the plasma cannon.
Haerr Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 91	Posted - 2013.11.08 17:23:00 - [14] - Quote I think for shotguns an increase in both optimal range and fall-off range would be a good thing. Maybe not so much the optimal as the fall-off. For breach shotguns an increase in damage is much needed. In addition to the changes to the shotguns of course. Scout suits are in dire need of more slots. A buff to movement speed is also in order. Is the breach shotgun working as inteded?
Phazoid The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 101	Posted - 2013.11.08 18:56:00 - [15] - Quote the HMG should get a slowing effect while an enemy is trapped on the bullet stream, now i agree with everything else but you missed increased sprinting speed for scouts, or decreased sprinting speed to medium dropsuits, also the breach shotgun in my opinion, should be a fast firing 2 shot-clip shotgun, but with very little ammo supply and increased cpu and pg requirements and surely isk price as well, but with increased dmg and range over the normal shotgun Me and my inner demons stopped fighting......We are on the same side now...
Cass Caul 261	Posted - 2013.11.08 21:48:00 - [16] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Cass Caul wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: I can agree with everything here besides the reducing AA bit, and the mechanics bit, excluding the scout mechanics part. I feel AA is just fine, I know you scouts are beaten to death by it, but that's where making you guys fast enough to effectively outrun the bullets will help. That, and I feel that med frames turn slow enough already (From a DS3 standpoint, it takes between 1-2 seconds to do a complete 180) and that people already through a bitchie fit about heavies being ballerinas. So, make scout fast enough to outrun bullets, and the other points I find a good idea, however they should be taken in a moderate way. Aim Assist is fine, I guess, but it's the Sharpshooter skill. The Sharpshooter "skill" this time around is what makes the AR overpowered. Aiming down sight should be the only way to have the ridiculous accuracy that the AR has. Even the Scrambler Rifle, it has more dispersion using ADS than it does hip-firing, except for ADS while moving (don't really understand why the ScR is more accurate while you move, but whatever). But, my recent conversion to the medium suit today has me feeling sluggish as I turn around. I got destroyed in my 1k HP logi suit as Valor G-1 scout danced around me and I couldn't turn fast enough. So that point I agree. Last bit, Scouts can't go any faster. The shoddy hit-detection only gets worse at those speeds. Also the shotgun hit-detection doesn't work as well when you're zooming around the map at 10m/s compared to 8m/s. Have we not fixed the hit detection lately? If you check the latest patch notes they'll say they improved hit-detection. Improved being the key word here. There are still times where you will have false hits with the shotgun. Now it just becomes a single shot not dealing damage rather than a whole clip. +Éß¦ëddGêÇ -çou -Äll+É-çoGö¦
Powerh8er Norwegian Dust514 Corporation Top Men. 292	Posted - 2013.11.08 22:57:00 - [17] - Quote I agree with everything except the massdrivers minimum aiming distance. But the shotgun (and the HMG) needs higher damage and greater range.
Lightning xVx R 0 N 1 N 331	Posted - 2013.11.08 23:01:00 - [18] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: Hi CCP! Hit detection improvements are a huge leap forward, but CQC balance has taken a big hit and could use some fine tuning. Here are my recommendations, based primarily upon personal observations of what's not working and what's working too well (in close quarters): Primary Weapons HMG: Increase optimal range, decrease dispersion. Shotgun: Increase optimal range. Automatic Scrambler Rifle: Increase ADS delay, increase hip-fire dispersion. Automatic Assault Rifle: Increase ADS delay, increase hip-fire dispersion. Plasma Cannon: Increase splash damage; decrease reload speed. Mass Driver: Add minimum arming distance (excluding direct hit). All Others: OK. Secondary Weapons Nova Knives: Fix hit detection, widen registration arc (if needed). Flaylock Pistol: Increase projectile speed. All Others: OK. Mechanics Assault: Decrease strafe speed, decrease rotation speed. Logi: Decrease strafe speed, decrease rotation speed. Heavy: Increase rotation speed. Scout: Increase strafe speed, increase walk speed. Thanks for your time and consideration. o7 - Shotty GoBang I approve good sir.
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1460	Posted - 2013.11.09 02:09:00 - [19] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Cass Caul wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: I can agree with everything here besides the reducing AA bit, and the mechanics bit, excluding the scout mechanics part. I feel AA is just fine, I know you scouts are beaten to death by it, but that's where making you guys fast enough to effectively outrun the bullets will help. That, and I feel that med frames turn slow enough already (From a DS3 standpoint, it takes between 1-2 seconds to do a complete 180) and that people already through a bitchie fit about heavies being ballerinas. So, make scout fast enough to outrun bullets, and the other points I find a good idea, however they should be taken in a moderate way. Aim Assist is fine, I guess, but it's the Sharpshooter skill. The Sharpshooter "skill" this time around is what makes the AR overpowered. Aiming down sight should be the only way to have the ridiculous accuracy that the AR has. Even the Scrambler Rifle, it has more dispersion using ADS than it does hip-firing, except for ADS while moving (don't really understand why the ScR is more accurate while you move, but whatever). But, my recent conversion to the medium suit today has me feeling sluggish as I turn around. I got destroyed in my 1k HP logi suit as Valor G-1 scout danced around me and I couldn't turn fast enough. So that point I agree. Last bit, Scouts can't go any faster. The shoddy hit-detection only gets worse at those speeds. Also the shotgun hit-detection doesn't work as well when you're zooming around the map at 10m/s compared to 8m/s. Have we not fixed the hit detection lately? If you check the latest patch notes they'll say they improved hit-detection. Improved being the key word here. There are still times where you will have false hits with the shotgun. Now it just becomes a single shot not dealing damage rather than a whole clip. I thought the HD issue was with shooting at scouts. So, your saying that a scout shooting also had HD issues? For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 363	Posted - 2013.11.09 03:31:00 - [20] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: Shotgun: Increase optimal range. I would disagree. The only way I would consider that fair, is if the damage were greatly reduced. PS: flaylock needs more clip size

Lightning xVx R 0 N 1 N 331	Posted - 2013.11.09 16:19:00 - [21] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Shotty GoBang wrote: Shotgun: Increase optimal range. I would disagree. The only way I would consider that fair, is if the damage were greatly reduced. PS: flaylock needs more clip size IMO, Chromosome had shotguns right.
Artificer Ghost Bojo's School of the Trades 1173	Posted - 2013.11.09 16:49:00 - [22] - Quote Haerr wrote: For breach shotguns an increase in damage is much needed. In addition to the changes to the shotguns of course. I'd just like to point out that a Shotgun's damage works differently than any other weapon. In fact, it's the only weapon besides the AR (That GEK, man) that gets much better as you level. The damage in the stats section is the damage it does at the effective range, assuming all "particles" hit. Now, what happens, is that you get in close, and instead of scaling to a higher number, it actually multiplies. Example: -Shotgun with 42 damage x3 (I'm not sure if the number goes above 3-4) = 126 -Shotgun with 45 damage x3 = 135 That 9 damage is a lot, comparing it to other weapons. The Scrambler Rifle only jumps up like, what, 3 damage? Same with the AR (I guess the GEK doesn't count?), SMG, HMG, and all those other weapons. And if your damage is higher, like the Breach Shotgun, then you get more from that multiplier. So when you talk about a Breach Shotgun needing more damage, think about the mechanics in play before saying anything, because I can 2-shot heavies in the chest with a Breach Shotgun. Just remember that the Shotgun is meant for CQC, and any type of Breach Weapon is meant for CQC. That means the Breach Shotgun is basically a very, very strong Nova Knife in terms of range. ~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
Artificer Ghost Bojo's School of the Trades 1173	Posted - 2013.11.09 17:01:00 - [23] - Quote Doshneil Antaro wrote: First off, this is well thought out post moving toward true weapon balance now that we have good hit detection. I only saw a few minor issues. The plasma cannon is I'll conceived garbage CCP threw at us to try to distract us from at the time a crap game. It is not needed, never wanted, oversized Flux grenade shooter that should be removed from the game. It is definitely not an AV weapon. It's only purpose is to troll. The only way to really make it work as CCP intended is to make it mini forge. One forge is enough for this game. Now on to you. You're dead wrong sir. You must have never even used the Plasma Cannon, and if you were, I want to know the map and how much experience you have. And/or if you read descriptions, look at stats, and listen to anyone besides the corp-mates that don't know what it is. I'd guess you think it's UP because it takes skill to use? Just like the Commando? Listen to me, because you sure as hell don't know what you're talking about. 1) You think it's AV. It's not. Read the description, because it CLEARLY says anti-infantry. While it does do a load of damage to LAVs, Installations, and the like, it's not AV. 2) It's CQC. The splash radius to so low that you can fire it 10m in front of you at the ground and take minimal damage. 3) It's meant for tight spaces. Just like any CQC weapon, being in a corridor or a small room will give you an advantage. 4) It's a skill-shot weapon. If the direct damage is over 1000 and the splash is ~400 damage, just assume it's a skill-shot. Direct hits make you the king of the leaderboard, and it takes considerable skill to get a direct hit with any explosive weapon. Combining all of those, this easily becomes the weapon that rewards you most for skill and knowledge. The Plasma Cannon is fine. A reload speed buff is certainly needed, but other than that, it's a balanced weapon altogether. -KDs I've Gotten With This Weapon- 18-5, Ran Scout + Plasma Cannon, pretty much OHK'd anything I saw. 10-1, Pretty quiet match, still killed a lot of people with minimal deaths. 16-14, got proto-stomped into the ground, but still managed to kill a lot of them. ~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis 2175	Posted - 2013.11.13 18:10:00 - [24] - Quote Edit: Original - HMG: Increase optimal range and/or decrease dispersion. Revision - HMG: Increase optimal range and increase dispersion. Basis - https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=120992&find=unread
CLONE117 planetary retaliation organisation 472	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:29:00 - [25] - Quote hmg can destroy in cqc....when used right.. at this point in time. ccp should add a theater mode. to help with this balancing and stuff. because im pretty sure every1s perception of gameplay is ruined straight after coming onto the forums. its never accurate. as for the cqc effective. my only problem with the std no sp invested plasma cannon is the fact a heavy can survive its single shot now. other than all that i think my mlt shotgun was deadlier before the supposed hit detection fix. as now ive been having some trouble with it being forced to use up to over 4 rounds on all the players. even though they run right into the blast. aside from that i can still pwn with it. the hmg is in fact very deadly. it may not have the greatest "dps" in game but its strong enough to melt every1. seeing as to how the total damage a single clip from it can dish out is over 7k. all cqc weapons are still deadly and effective as far as i can tell. and ive been running mlt gear for how long now?... and i think gameplay is fine?. and ive doing good. and for some reason. all the proto bears are dieing because proto gear doesnt make the invincible any more and instead just gives them an advantage.. my only thought for dps is that it should only matter with high rof LOW damage weapons. the low rof HIGH damage weapons dont need to rely on "dps" to be effective. although they are forced to be a bit more accurate. meaning they cant spray and pray like rapid fire weaponry. they also use less ammo. meaning that if they are good with their weapon they will probably be the last ones to run out of ammo. i dont think we need any massive weapon changes for now. its best to just play as many matches as possible or extreme testing within the gameplay and see the scenarios for them. instead of playing a single battle where your team lost horribly because your enemy was using full proto and using the way too powerful zerg rush "tactics".


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