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Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
1368
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Posted - 2013.11.06 16:10:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hear me out, right now there are no armour mods for the high slot and rather then move reactive plates to high the high slot we make it a dual mod.
I was going say to move it to high and be done with it, but I don't wanna get the people who use it in low slots. |
Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
578
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Posted - 2013.11.06 16:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:right now there are no armour mods for the high slot That's the idea.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
1370
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Posted - 2013.11.06 16:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:right now there are no armour mods for the high slot That's the idea. Ok, can we move shield regulators to the high slot? |
Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
578
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Posted - 2013.11.06 16:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:right now there are no armour mods for the high slot That's the idea. Ok, can we move shield regulators to the high slot? No, that's also the idea.
If you don't believe me, take a look at EVE. CCP is doing the same thing here as they did there.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
1370
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 17:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:right now there are no armour mods for the high slot That's the idea. Ok, can we move shield regulators to the high slot? No, that's also the idea. If you don't believe me, take a look at EVE. CCP is doing the same thing here as they did there. So why would it hurt to have one armour mod for high and low slots? |
Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
578
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Posted - 2013.11.06 17:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:right now there are no armour mods for the high slot That's the idea. Ok, can we move shield regulators to the high slot? No, that's also the idea. If you don't believe me, take a look at EVE. CCP is doing the same thing here as they did there. So why would it hurt to have one armour mod for high and low slots? Because...
1. Modules shouldn't be able to fit in both types of slots, only one type for a single module. 2. Why would you want an armor module in a high slot? To minmax? That's not how you're supposed to fit dropsuits.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
1371
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Posted - 2013.11.06 17:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
I don't wanna min/max but I'd like to use something other then dmg or shield mods for my highs. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
7397
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Posted - 2013.11.06 17:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote: Because...
1. Modules shouldn't be able to fit in both types of slots, only one type for a single module. 2. Why would you want an armor module in a high slot? To minmax? That's not how you're supposed to fit dropsuits.
Shields have high slot and low slot modues. Why not armor? But instead of reactive plates, I'd like to see a damage control module that gives passive resistance.
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
6927
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Posted - 2013.11.06 17:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:right now there are no armour mods for the high slot That's the idea. Ok, can we move shield regulators to the high slot? No, that's also the idea. If you don't believe me, take a look at EVE. CCP is doing the same thing here as they did there. Explain why its a good idea. Just because something is in EVE is not justification of its merits.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads Gû¦Gû+
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Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
1371
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Posted - 2013.11.06 17:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote: Because...
1. Modules shouldn't be able to fit in both types of slots, only one type for a single module. 2. Why would you want an armor module in a high slot? To minmax? That's not how you're supposed to fit dropsuits.
Shields have high slot and low slot modues. Why not armor? But instead of reactive plates, I'd like to see a damage control module that gives passive resistance. it would be nice to see a new mod, but I would take reactive mods.
A extra 25-60 armour and a extra 1-2 repair is much better then a 20-60 extra shields.
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Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
570
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Posted - 2013.11.06 17:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Explain why its a good idea. Just because something is in EVE is not justification of its merits.
Well, I can't access the fitting tool to see how feasible it is at the moment, but people could fit some complex reactives in their high slots, a plate or two in the low, and some complex armor reppers to create a super regenerating armor tank that would break the supposed shield vs armor balance of shield users have lower eHP but regain it quickly whereas armor tankers have a larger buffer but it takes longer to return (if at all). |
Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
1371
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 18:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
Krom Ganesh wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Explain why its a good idea. Just because something is in EVE is not justification of its merits.
Well, I can't access the fitting tool to see how feasible it is at the moment, but people could fit some complex reactives in their high slots, a plate or two in the low, and some complex armor reppers to create a super regenerating armor tank that would break the supposed shield vs armor balance of shield users have lower eHP but regain it quickly whereas armor tankers have a larger buffer but it takes longer to return (if at all). you don't need one, I can tell you right now since I have proto Gallente assault.
I have MAX skills besides the PG reduction skill for the AR, it's at level 3.
I can get 144-212 shields and 540-710 armour roughly with 6-12 healing per sec with a proto AR(hybrid weapon bonus) and STD side arm. That pretty much uses all my CPU and PG. I also use one complex dmg mod.
I think at max, I would be able to fit one complex reactive plate and maybe a basic. Or just skip that and put two basics on.
so I can get total 8-15 healing and 600-800 armour roughly and 5-14 movement penalty.
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Thurak1
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
364
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Posted - 2013.11.06 18:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:Hear me out, right now there are no armour mods for the high slot and rather then move reactive plates to the high slot we make it a dual mod.
I was going say to move it to high and be done with it, but I don't wanna get the people who use it in low slots. It would be neat to have them be either and then have them behave differently depending on which power slot they are in. Like when in a hi slot they would provide slightly less protection but be able to repair armor faster. Then behave as normal in a low slot. |
Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
578
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Posted - 2013.11.06 19:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:right now there are no armour mods for the high slot That's the idea. Ok, can we move shield regulators to the high slot? No, that's also the idea. If you don't believe me, take a look at EVE. CCP is doing the same thing here as they did there. Explain why its a good idea. Just because something is in EVE is not justification of its merits. I never said it was a good idea, or even an idea that I wanted, I just said that it was what CCP intended.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
1371
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Posted - 2013.11.06 19:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
Thurak1 wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:Hear me out, right now there are no armour mods for the high slot and rather then move reactive plates to the high slot we make it a dual mod.
I was going say to move it to high and be done with it, but I don't wanna get the people who use it in low slots. It would be neat to have them be either and then have them behave differently depending on which power slot they are in. Like when in a hi slot they would provide slightly less protection but be able to repair armor faster. Then behave as normal in a low slot. hmmm, a very interesting idea. Maybe they would draw more CPU or PG depending where they are equipped?
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Azri Sarum
BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder.
112
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Posted - 2013.11.07 04:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Explain why its a good idea. Just because something is in EVE is not justification of its merits.
Well, you could argue that matching what EVE does promotes consistency between the two games, reinforcing the idea that both games take place in the same universe.
You could also consider the fact that EVE's system has been battle tested by hundreds of thousands of players over a DECADE and has been found extremely awesome, and deeper than you will find in just about any other game.
You might also consider that thanks to all of the work EVE has done all DUST needs to do is copy it, saving it from having to start from square one.
Looking at the other side DUST wants to do things differently because... reasons?
Ulysses Knapse wrote: No, that's also the idea.
If you don't believe me, take a look at EVE. CCP is doing the same thing here as they did there.
Err, sort of. If they were mirroring eve then damage mods would be low slot modules and damn near all other low slot modules that are not related to armor tanking would be in our high slots.
Personally i think we need to shuffle some of the modules around so that people have more interesting choices than are currently available.
@OP - one other thing to consider, there is not a single module in all of EVE or DUST that can go in more than one type of slot, so for consistency alone that is not viable.
@CCP - any chance you guys could un bugger up DUSTS slot names. Converting between high and mids when talking about the two games is hella confusing at times.
EVE - Victor Maximus
DUST - Azri Sarum
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Sinboto Simmons
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
1961
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Posted - 2013.11.07 04:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
Don't know why so much hate, armor tankers need love.
Sinboto - The True Blood Minja.
Forum Warrior level 1
Fix my class already
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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic Top Men.
239
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Posted - 2013.11.07 05:09:00 -
[18] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:Don't know why so much hate, armor tankers need love.
Why do you feel that they need love? They are better than shields in nearly all ways. |
Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
1373
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 05:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
Galvan Nized wrote:Sinboto Simmons wrote:Don't know why so much hate, armor tankers need love. Why do you feel that they need love? They are better than shields in nearly all ways. Except they aren't. |
Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic Top Men.
239
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Posted - 2013.11.07 05:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote: Except they aren't.
I'll assume you took my response as inflammatory, I didn't mean it this way. I am curious as to why you feel this way.
Is it regen? Mobility? Mods in opposite slots?
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Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
1374
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Posted - 2013.11.07 05:46:00 -
[21] - Quote
Galvan Nized wrote:Cody Sietz wrote: Except they aren't.
I'll assume you took my response as inflammatory, I didn't mean it this way. I am curious as to why you feel this way. Is it regen? Mobility? Mods in opposite slots? Well, shields will regain on their own, they do not slow you down. People can use shield mods and armour mods and get a better result then armour tankers.
Edit:I understand that armour reps are constant and they repairs work on us. Thing is nobody ever factors in if a Logi wants to follow you around, or the PG limitations that you run into as a armour tanking Gallente suit. |
Awry Barux
Shining Flame Amarr Empire
275
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Posted - 2013.11.07 05:56:00 -
[22] - Quote
How about biotics in the highs? |
Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic Top Men.
239
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Posted - 2013.11.07 07:07:00 -
[23] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote: Well, shields will regain on their own, they do not slow you down. People can use shield mods and armour mods and get a better result then armour tankers.
Okay I'll start with regen, usually the biggest problem people have with shields. People always forget that armor tankers have inherent shield regen which helps even out the regen debate.
Consider the following. A Gal Assault has 150 shields on top of their armor hp. Now I know this seems like nothing but just go with me. 2 complex reppers = 12.5 hp/s armor which starts immediately. Gal assault shield regen is 25 (20*.25 from assault skill) with a delay of 7/10 (remember the 10 the 7 is pretty worthless here).
In 5 secs Gal has regened 62.5 hp. In 10 secs Gal has regened 125 total hp purely from the repper. Now shield regen starts alongside armor. It will take 6 secs for 150 shields to heal (25x6). So in 16 secs Gal have regened 200 armor + 150 shields=350 total hp. They then lose shields regen cus they are full, back only to the repper. In 20 secs they regened 400 hp. 22 secs you repair 425. Avg rep rate (total hp/time) at 16 secs is 21.875. Avg at 20 secs is 20 hp/s. At 22 secs is 19.3.
Let's consider Cal assault now, remember they have no inherent armor regen. They have regen rate of 31.25 (25x1.25 from assault skill) with delay of 5/8. Assuming shields are completely knocked out (8 sec delay) in 8 secs they regen 0 hp. In 10 secs 62.5 hp. In 16 secs (8x31.25) is 250 hp. In 20 secs is 375 hp. 21 secs is 406.5. 22 secs is 437.75. Avg rep rate at 16 secs is 15.625. Avg at 20 is 18.75. At 22 is 19.9. Shields crush after this. Point being armor gets advantage for 20 secs (ages in a fight) but avg rep rate favors armor in the short term and shields in long term.
Now one must consider a Cal without shields knocked out (will happen a lot). At 5 secs heals 0. At 10 secs 156.25. At 16 heals 343.5. After 17 shields win. Avg rep rate at 16 secs is 21.47. At 22 it is 24.14. This is my favorite because armor tankers have solid advantage for 9 secs, loses it for 6 secs, gains back for 1, then lose but it takes 17 secs. |
Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic Top Men.
239
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Posted - 2013.11.07 07:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote: People can use shield mods and armour mods and get a better result then armour tankers.
Usually when this is mentioned they are comparing 1 mod to 1 mod (not true dual tanking ie filing both sides with shields / armor.)
And yes 1 to 1 shield tankers get more ehp from a single armor mod than the reverse. However, it's not that simple.
Remembering the regen debate (twas a huge post im sorry about that) adding 1 complex shield gives only 66 hp but adds extra 2.5-3 secs of shield regen which combines with armor regen. This fends off shields from regenerating more hp than armor for another 2 secs for like 23/19secs against assaults So extenders on armor tankers aid in the regen battle more than only adding ehp.
I know it's hard to fit complex shields but Basic and Advanced extenders blow (both sides would probably like this changed). It's still less than a complex dmg mod (which armor tankers are most likely to be running). |
Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
1376
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Posted - 2013.11.07 08:17:00 -
[25] - Quote
Galvan Nized wrote:Cody Sietz wrote: People can use shield mods and armour mods and get a better result then armour tankers.
Usually when this is mentioned they are comparing 1 mod to 1 mod (not true dual tanking ie filing both sides with shields / armor.) And yes 1 to 1 shield tankers get more ehp from a single armor mod than the reverse. However, it's not that simple. Remembering the regen debate (twas a huge post im sorry about that) adding 1 complex shield gives only 66 hp but adds extra 2.5-3 secs of shield regen which combines with armor regen. This fends off shields from regenerating more hp than armor for another 2 secs for like 23/19secs against assaults So extenders on armor tankers aid in the regen battle more than only adding ehp. I know it's hard to fit complex shields but Basic and Advanced extenders blow (both sides would probably like this changed). It's still less than a complex dmg mod (which armor tankers are most likely to be running). Yes, but while a shield tanker needs to only go one level in armour mods to use a basic armour plate(ans only need 10/1 to fit it) the armour tanker would need to max out his shield extender skill to simply try to fit a extender to add to his suit.
I'm not trying to say shield tanking is better, just that armour tanking is not. It was much more one sided before, but the buff to plates was a good step to leveling the playing field.
The Caldari assault has a base shield regain of 25 and gets a better kick out of the assault suit bonus. So while armour provides a larger return, you still have fit the plates and reports together in order to get anything worthwhile. I could fit 3 basic plates on my suit and get a extra 250 but I'd only be getting 6.25 go per sec, a shield tanker could fit 3 basic plates and get the same 250 hp but the lack of healing effectives them less since they only need to worry about shields and their regain. The 150 shields for armour tankers is a nice tiny buffer...that's it, adding a extra 66 shields on top for the CPU/PG is just not worth it. But if you can fit a reactive plate you not only get more armour but more healing for you CPU/PG
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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic Top Men.
240
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Posted - 2013.11.07 09:49:00 -
[26] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:Yes, but while a shield tanker needs to only go one level in armour mods to use a basic armour plate(ans only need 10/1 to fit it) the armour tanker would need to max out his shield extender skill to simply try to fit a extender to add to his suit.
I'm not trying to say shield tanking is better, just that armour tanking is not. It was much more one sided before, but the buff to plates was a good step to leveling the playing field.
Oh I know the investment is off, I did say basic and advanced shield extenders suck. There needs to be better progression from tier to tier (helps armor tankers who want that one mod and aids those newer shields tankers who can't afford proto.)
But if you do not consider regen (even of a measly 150 hp shields on a Gal assault) then you are only talking about shear ehp. Forget the reppers then and stack 3 complex plates with 1 kin cat. More ehp than Cal could ever have (barring a dual tanker) plus you still can regen 150 shield hp and no speed loss (actually is a gain 3.2 percent speed.) Regen of ALL hp as a whole MUST be considered.
Agreed that reactive plates are pretty much worse than their individual counterparts but adding to highs gives armor higher regen AND more ehp. If I haven't shown regen rates are NOW, at least, more equal than people thought than I have failed. Adding more regen/ehp to highs just upsets the balance further. |
Sinboto Simmons
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
1982
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Posted - 2013.11.07 13:22:00 -
[27] - Quote
Galvan Nized wrote:Sinboto Simmons wrote:Don't know why so much hate, armor tankers need love. Why do you feel that they need love? They are better than shields in nearly all ways. Now I can honestly say this is false as someone who has used both shield and armor tanked suits, while armor gives more HP that's it's only advantage: recharge is slow many times requiring a logi to save ya, all mods are in the lows meaning you'd need to sacrifice either HP or reps in order to work the way you want, and it slows ya down which is dangerous in a firefight, and let's not forget the damage taken from explosives.
Sinboto - The True Blood Minja.
Forum Warrior level 1
Fix my class already
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Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION
896
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Posted - 2013.11.07 13:43:00 -
[28] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote: Why do you feel that they need love? They are better than shields in nearly all ways.
Now I can honestly say this is false as someone who has used both shield and armor tanked suits, while armor gives more HP that's it's only advantage: recharge is slow many times requiring a logi to save ya, all mods are in the lows meaning you'd need to sacrifice either HP or reps in order to work the way you want, and it slows ya down which is dangerous in a firefight, and let's not forget the damage taken from explosives.[/quote]
Lets not even get started on the explosive damage which we know is broken. If it were doing damage as intended then it wouldn't be anywhere near the dis advantage it currently is.
The speed loss is a huge ding against armor tankers. Yes you could compensate with a kin cat but that only fixes sprint speed. If you're out of stamina and stuck in a firefight you're boned.
Now with more obscenities!
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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic Top Men.
242
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Posted - 2013.11.07 13:47:00 -
[29] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:Galvan Nized wrote:Sinboto Simmons wrote:Don't know why so much hate, armor tankers need love. Why do you feel that they need love? They are better than shields in nearly all ways. Now I can honestly say this is false as someone who has used both shield and armor tanked suits, while armor gives more HP that's it's only advantage: recharge is slow many times requiring a logi to save ya, all mods are in the lows meaning you'd need to sacrifice either HP or reps in order to work the way you want, and it slows ya down which is dangerous in a firefight, and let's not forget the damage taken from explosives.
Regen debate is silly, see post #23 where I compare the two. Armor gets the regen nod in the short run for at least 17 secs if not longer. If you talking logi than the nod is 30 secs. That's an awful long time. Shields get the nod in long term.
There is a discrepancy of mods in the lows I'll give you that but none that are as good as DMG mods. Trust me shield tankers would rather some of the low mods be highs if they got a little tankier in the process. |
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Pages: 1 :: [one page] |