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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic
Top Men.
239
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Posted - 2013.11.07 05:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:Don't know why so much hate, armor tankers need love.
Why do you feel that they need love? They are better than shields in nearly all ways. |
Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic
Top Men.
239
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 05:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:
Except they aren't.
I'll assume you took my response as inflammatory, I didn't mean it this way. I am curious as to why you feel this way.
Is it regen? Mobility? Mods in opposite slots?
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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic
Top Men.
239
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 07:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:
Well, shields will regain on their own, they do not slow you down. People can use shield mods and armour mods and get a better result then armour tankers.
Okay I'll start with regen, usually the biggest problem people have with shields. People always forget that armor tankers have inherent shield regen which helps even out the regen debate.
Consider the following. A Gal Assault has 150 shields on top of their armor hp. Now I know this seems like nothing but just go with me. 2 complex reppers = 12.5 hp/s armor which starts immediately. Gal assault shield regen is 25 (20*.25 from assault skill) with a delay of 7/10 (remember the 10 the 7 is pretty worthless here).
In 5 secs Gal has regened 62.5 hp. In 10 secs Gal has regened 125 total hp purely from the repper. Now shield regen starts alongside armor. It will take 6 secs for 150 shields to heal (25x6). So in 16 secs Gal have regened 200 armor + 150 shields=350 total hp. They then lose shields regen cus they are full, back only to the repper. In 20 secs they regened 400 hp. 22 secs you repair 425. Avg rep rate (total hp/time) at 16 secs is 21.875. Avg at 20 secs is 20 hp/s. At 22 secs is 19.3.
Let's consider Cal assault now, remember they have no inherent armor regen. They have regen rate of 31.25 (25x1.25 from assault skill) with delay of 5/8. Assuming shields are completely knocked out (8 sec delay) in 8 secs they regen 0 hp. In 10 secs 62.5 hp. In 16 secs (8x31.25) is 250 hp. In 20 secs is 375 hp. 21 secs is 406.5. 22 secs is 437.75. Avg rep rate at 16 secs is 15.625. Avg at 20 is 18.75. At 22 is 19.9. Shields crush after this. Point being armor gets advantage for 20 secs (ages in a fight) but avg rep rate favors armor in the short term and shields in long term.
Now one must consider a Cal without shields knocked out (will happen a lot). At 5 secs heals 0. At 10 secs 156.25. At 16 heals 343.5. After 17 shields win. Avg rep rate at 16 secs is 21.47. At 22 it is 24.14. This is my favorite because armor tankers have solid advantage for 9 secs, loses it for 6 secs, gains back for 1, then lose but it takes 17 secs. |
Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic
Top Men.
239
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 07:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:
People can use shield mods and armour mods and get a better result then armour tankers.
Usually when this is mentioned they are comparing 1 mod to 1 mod (not true dual tanking ie filing both sides with shields / armor.)
And yes 1 to 1 shield tankers get more ehp from a single armor mod than the reverse. However, it's not that simple.
Remembering the regen debate (twas a huge post im sorry about that) adding 1 complex shield gives only 66 hp but adds extra 2.5-3 secs of shield regen which combines with armor regen. This fends off shields from regenerating more hp than armor for another 2 secs for like 23/19secs against assaults So extenders on armor tankers aid in the regen battle more than only adding ehp.
I know it's hard to fit complex shields but Basic and Advanced extenders blow (both sides would probably like this changed). It's still less than a complex dmg mod (which armor tankers are most likely to be running). |
Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic
Top Men.
240
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 09:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:Yes, but while a shield tanker needs to only go one level in armour mods to use a basic armour plate(ans only need 10/1 to fit it) the armour tanker would need to max out his shield extender skill to simply try to fit a extender to add to his suit.
I'm not trying to say shield tanking is better, just that armour tanking is not. It was much more one sided before, but the buff to plates was a good step to leveling the playing field.
Oh I know the investment is off, I did say basic and advanced shield extenders suck. There needs to be better progression from tier to tier (helps armor tankers who want that one mod and aids those newer shields tankers who can't afford proto.)
But if you do not consider regen (even of a measly 150 hp shields on a Gal assault) then you are only talking about shear ehp. Forget the reppers then and stack 3 complex plates with 1 kin cat. More ehp than Cal could ever have (barring a dual tanker) plus you still can regen 150 shield hp and no speed loss (actually is a gain 3.2 percent speed.) Regen of ALL hp as a whole MUST be considered.
Agreed that reactive plates are pretty much worse than their individual counterparts but adding to highs gives armor higher regen AND more ehp. If I haven't shown regen rates are NOW, at least, more equal than people thought than I have failed. Adding more regen/ehp to highs just upsets the balance further. |
Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic
Top Men.
242
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 13:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:Galvan Nized wrote:Sinboto Simmons wrote:Don't know why so much hate, armor tankers need love. Why do you feel that they need love? They are better than shields in nearly all ways. Now I can honestly say this is false as someone who has used both shield and armor tanked suits, while armor gives more HP that's it's only advantage: recharge is slow many times requiring a logi to save ya, all mods are in the lows meaning you'd need to sacrifice either HP or reps in order to work the way you want, and it slows ya down which is dangerous in a firefight, and let's not forget the damage taken from explosives.
Regen debate is silly, see post #23 where I compare the two. Armor gets the regen nod in the short run for at least 17 secs if not longer. If you talking logi than the nod is 30 secs. That's an awful long time. Shields get the nod in long term.
There is a discrepancy of mods in the lows I'll give you that but none that are as good as DMG mods. Trust me shield tankers would rather some of the low mods be highs if they got a little tankier in the process. |
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