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Nirwanda Vaughns
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
174
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Posted - 2013.11.06 11:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
We all know that the best suit in DUST at the moment is a proto logi. they're superior to every suit in pretty much every way and more people are running a logi as more of an offensive suit instead of support/defensive making the assault suits redundant. Hell my gallente proto logi fills every role i need. i can get a 9.25ms sprint speed with 590 stamina and 4 diff types of uplinks, i overtake scouts an dget more proto links out and despite having low hitpoints its still more than a scout suit. As an assault i have a great tank at cost of movement but i deal great damage and can have equipment to benefit me, rep hives, scanner, pig sticker ect. So my thoughts have been a few changes to the suits to get them more in balance, some of these ideas are passing thoughts i've seen on the forums and others discussed while in my corp chat/squad chats.
Firstly the logis. the skill bonus is great, it benefits the logis and helps keep them alive sure some don't fit the suits tank type but ccp have mentioned that suits will eventually get individual skill bonus to fit the role. one idea to 'force' a logi to support is removal of the light weapon slot and just have a side arm. now personally i think that is a fantastic idea, you're supposed to be at the back repping your heavy, sticking the troops and dropping ammo, not at the front guns blazing all out. but for compensation give each logi a bit more cpu/pg to fit higher grade equipment more easily, the problem with this though is finding something which would make the amarr logi stand out seeing as its sidearm is its 'speciality' perhaps a second sidearm slot or maybe even an extra grenade slot for AV/Anti infantry nades.
Now to fill in this combat logi role and to get more people running the assaults or commando.... simply add an extra equipment slot. it would open up a ton of options and help frontline troops have a bit more flexibility with what they carry. add a small amount of pg/cpu but not too much so folk are stacking allotek (R) and wiyrkomi triage hives and being awesome but enough that they can have adv hives and a pig sticker or uplinks to help stay in the fight a bit longer while the logi is attending to the rest of the squad. just help to make assault guys more self sufficient but still need that dedicated squad member to hold em together.
Also the gallente assault bonus really needs looking at. the cpu/pg to hybrid weapons is really poor. at max you'd save 22 cpu on a duvolle whereas the logi comes with around 100 extra cpu base and an extra lowslot. maybe change it to a reduction to armor plate movement penalty or an extra 3% per level to armor plate effectiveness or hell even a 5% or 10% to stamina per level so its more mobile would be more usefull.
anyways thats my thoughts, feel free to add your own and make changes. thanks for reading |
Kasote Denzara
A Vulture
688
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Posted - 2013.11.06 11:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
What the hell is a pig sticker for Dust 514? Nanites, right?
I go commando in my Commando. Feels good, man.
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Eris Ernaga
DUST University Ivy League
658
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Posted - 2013.11.06 11:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:We all know that the best suit in DUST at the moment is a proto logi. they're superior to every suit in pretty much every way and more people are running a logi as more of an offensive suit instead of support/defensive making the assault suits redundant. Hell my gallente proto logi fills every role i need. i can get a 9.25ms sprint speed with 590 stamina and 4 diff types of uplinks, i overtake scouts an dget more proto links out and despite having low hitpoints its still more than a scout suit. As an assault i have a great tank at cost of movement but i deal great damage and can have equipment to benefit me, rep hives, scanner, pig sticker ect. So my thoughts have been a few changes to the suits to get them more in balance, some of these ideas are passing thoughts i've seen on the forums and others discussed while in my corp chat/squad chats. Firstly the logis. the skill bonus is great, it benefits the logis and helps keep them alive sure some don't fit the suits tank type but ccp have mentioned that suits will eventually get individual skill bonus to fit the role. one idea to 'force' a logi to support is removal of the light weapon slot and just have a side arm. now personally i think that is a fantastic idea, you're supposed to be at the back repping your heavy, sticking the troops and dropping ammo, not at the front guns blazing all out. but for compensation give each logi a bit more cpu/pg to fit higher grade equipment more easily, the problem with this though is finding something which would make the amarr logi stand out seeing as its sidearm is its 'speciality' perhaps a second sidearm slot or maybe even an extra grenade slot for AV/Anti infantry nades. Now to fill in this combat logi role and to get more people running the assaults or commando.... simply add an extra equipment slot. it would open up a ton of options and help frontline troops have a bit more flexibility with what they carry. add a small amount of pg/cpu but not too much so folk are stacking allotek (R) and wiyrkomi triage hives and being awesome but enough that they can have adv hives and a pig sticker or uplinks to help stay in the fight a bit longer while the logi is attending to the rest of the squad. just help to make assault guys more self sufficient but still need that dedicated squad member to hold em together. Also the gallente assault bonus really needs looking at. the cpu/pg to hybrid weapons is really poor. at max you'd save 22 cpu on a duvolle whereas the logi comes with around 100 extra cpu base and an extra lowslot. maybe change it to a reduction to armor plate movement penalty or an extra 3% per level to armor plate effectiveness or hell even a 5% or 10% to stamina per level so its more mobile would be more usefull. anyways thats my thoughts, feel free to add your own and make changes. thanks for reading
They don't have more base hp, stamina, stamina recharge rate, or sprint and walk speed.
Ba bang baby
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Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
1837
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Posted - 2013.11.06 11:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
Exactly what Eris said. If you aren't going assault you need to put in more SP to your logistics suit to make it a better slayer than an equivalent assault suit.
And I dare say they'll be making logistics suits require filled equipment slots to be viable soon. I just hope they make it coincide with the respec because I think I'll faint with laughter from all the "ermagerd suit not viable for assault anymore CCP y u do dis".
"..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed."
-Veigar
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Paran Tadec
Ancient Exiles
1597
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Posted - 2013.11.06 12:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Limiting Logi to sidearm has been brought up before and it is still just as stupid. Just require logos to fill all equipment slots.
Bittervet Proficiency V
thanks logibro!
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Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
920
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Posted - 2013.11.06 12:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
No no no no no!
You wanna fix the problem replace the standard suit, with the assault! Move the assault down thd skill tree by 1 level done!
The pen is mightier than the sword
The gun is mightier than both
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RydogV
Shadow Company HQ
580
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Posted - 2013.11.06 12:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
Putting the Assault back into Assault Dropsuits
As most of you know, there is always this ongoing debate about how Assault dropsuits are not as effective at frontline combat when compared to Logistics dropsuits fitted for a slayer role. While I think the gap is not as significant as it is made out to be on the Dust forums, I do recognize there is room for some improvements. Now many argue that the best way to address the perceived imbalance is to some how nerf the Logistics dropsuit. Things like reducing module slots, reducing CPU/PG, making equipment slots mandatory and limiting Logis to only sidearm weapons have all been suggested. However, I believe the best solution is to make Assault dropsuits better, by enhancing their offensive capability. This can be done by adjusting some simple game mechanics and rethinking role and race bonuses for both the Assault and Logistics classes.
Step one would be to dial back the 10% buff given to Light Weapons a few updates ago.
Step two would be to reduce the damage increase of Weapons Damage Modules. Militia/Basic to +2%, Advanced to +3% and Prototype to +5%. The stacking penalty for these modules would also be double their current rate.
Step three would be to change the current Assault bonus (+5% Shield Recharge Rate at each level) to something more fitting the slayer role. This would be a +2% Damage Increase to Light Weapons at each level. This way the Assault class become the more appealing choice for frontline combat by giving it the chance to regain that 10% damage buff at the highest level. Some adjustments to racial bonuses would also include:
- Amarr: 5% Reduction to laser weapon heat build-up (stays the same)
- Caldari: 3% Increase to max ammo (change from +2% efficacy to shield extenders)
- Gallente: 5% Reduction to weapon CPU/PG (change from -5% to hybrid weapon CPU/PG)
- Minmatar: 5% Increase to Light and Sidearm weapon clip size (change from +5% to sidearm clip size)
Step four would be to change some current Logistics racial bonuses. Logistics would keep the role bonus of +1 HP of Dropsuit Armor Repair, since there is generally no one to heal the healer and survivability is key in a support role. Changes to racial bonuses include:
- Amarr: 5% Reduction to active scanner CPU/PG (change from +5% efficacy to armor repair modules)
- Caldari: 5% Reduction to nano equipment CPU/PG (change from +5% efficacy to shield regulators)
- Gallente: 5% Reduction to repair tool CPU/PG (change from -5% to equipment CPU/PG)
- Minmatar: 5% Increase to hacking speed (stays the same)
Aside from the increase in damage output for Assault, the racial bonuses all now reflect important improvements in offensive weapon capability. Amarr remains the same with bonuses to Lasers and Scrambler Rifles; Caldari gets increased ammo, crucial for weapons like Mass Drivers and Swarm Launchers; Gallente gets significant CPU/PG savings from both weapons slots; and Minmatar gets larger magazines to offset its low HP.
The changes to Logistics don't take away from its durability with the inherent armor repair but do put more emphasis on support bonuses. The higher DPS potential of the Assault class, combined with the reduced effectiveness of Damage Modules, would make the Logistics suit a less capable platform for frontline combat.
Comments welcome |
John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
326
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Posted - 2013.11.06 12:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
RydogV wrote:Putting the Assault back into Assault DropsuitsAs most of you know, there is always this ongoing debate about how Assault dropsuits are not as effective at frontline combat when compared to Logistics dropsuits fitted for a slayer role. While I think the gap is not as significant as it is made out to be on the Dust forums, I do recognize there is room for some improvements. Now many argue that the best way to address the perceived imbalance is to some how nerf the Logistics dropsuit. Things like reducing module slots, reducing CPU/PG, making equipment slots mandatory and limiting Logis to only sidearm weapons have all been suggested. However, I believe the best solution is to make Assault dropsuits better, by enhancing their offensive capability. This can be done by adjusting some simple game mechanics and rethinking role and race bonuses for both the Assault and Logistics classes. Step one would be to dial back the 10% buff given to Light Weapons a few updates ago. Step two would be to reduce the damage increase of Weapons Damage Modules. Militia/Basic to +2%, Advanced to +3% and Prototype to +5%. The stacking penalty for these modules would also be double their current rate. Step three would be to change the current Assault bonus (+5% Shield Recharge Rate at each level) to something more fitting the slayer role. This would be a +2% Damage Increase to Light Weapons at each level. This way the Assault class become the more appealing choice for frontline combat by giving it the chance to regain that 10% damage buff at the highest level. Some adjustments to racial bonuses would also include:
- Amarr: 5% Reduction to laser weapon heat build-up (stays the same)
- Caldari: 3% Increase to max ammo (change from +2% efficacy to shield extenders)
- Gallente: 5% Reduction to weapon CPU/PG (change from -5% to hybrid weapon CPU/PG)
- Minmatar: 5% Increase to Light and Sidearm weapon clip size (change from +5% to sidearm clip size)
Step four would be to change some current Logistics racial bonuses. Logistics would keep the role bonus of +1 HP of Dropsuit Armor Repair, since there is generally no one to heal the healer and survivability is key in a support role. Changes to racial bonuses include:
- Amarr: 5% Reduction to active scanner CPU/PG (change from +5% efficacy to armor repair modules)
- Caldari: 5% Reduction to nano equipment CPU/PG (change from +5% efficacy to shield regulators)
- Gallente: 5% Reduction to repair tool CPU/PG (change from -5% to equipment CPU/PG)
- Minmatar: 5% Increase to hacking speed (stays the same)
Aside from the increase in damage output for Assault, the racial bonuses all now reflect important improvements in offensive weapon capability. Amarr remains the same with bonuses to Lasers and Scrambler Rifles; Caldari gets increased ammo, crucial for weapons like Mass Drivers and Swarm Launchers; Gallente gets significant CPU/PG savings from both weapons slots; and Minmatar gets larger magazines to offset its low HP. The changes to Logistics don't take away from its durability with the inherent armor repair but do put more emphasis on support bonuses. The higher DPS potential of the Assault class, combined with the reduced effectiveness of Damage Modules, would make the Logistics suit a less capable platform for frontline combat. Comments welcome
While not just patently idiotic like the sidearm only idea (I managed to convince one of the largest proponents of that idea that it was untenable in another thread, he has since stopped floating it), I think giving bonuses for specific types,of equipment is way too restrictive. For one, how do you pick the equipment? Why did you pick scanners and not uplinks for the Amarr, for example? Do you really feel comfortable telling a logitistics player, look son, it's about time you started using equipment x all the time. Oh, you don't like it? Too bad, CCP decided that every logi from your race needs to feature that. HTFU I guess.
I mean, why not either just require all equipment slots to be filled (my preferred solution ) or give a blanket bonus to all equipment? Picking one type of equipment 100% kills the whole sandbox idea the suit fittings are built upon!
Templar'd for her pleasure
Amarr victor!
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Timothy Reaper
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL The Ascendancy
552
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Posted - 2013.11.06 12:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
I think RydogV has it about right. Everyone wants a simple solution to a problem that is not simple. RydogV seems to have ost of the bases covered.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
Mark Twain
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RydogV
Shadow Company HQ
581
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Posted - 2013.11.06 13:12:00 -
[10] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote: While not just patently idiotic like the sidearm only idea (I managed to convince one of the largest proponents of that idea that it was untenable in another thread, he has since stopped floating it), I think giving bonuses for specific types,of equipment is way too restrictive. For one, how do you pick the equipment? Why did you pick scanners and not uplinks for the Amarr, for example? Do you really feel comfortable telling a logitistics player, look son, it's about time you started using equipment x all the time. Oh, you don't like it? Too bad, CCP decided that every logi from your race needs to feature that. HTFU I guess.
I mean, why not either just require all equipment slots to be filled (my preferred solution ) or give a blanket bonus to all equipment? Picking one type of equipment 100% kills the whole sandbox idea the suit fittings are built upon!
I selected that equipment because I felt it suited the particular dropsuit. For example, the Amarr Logistics really is the more offensive suit in the class. It makes sense they would be moving closely with Assault troops and the Active Scanner is a perfect piece of equipment for them to carry. Maybe along with some Remote Explosives and a Nano-Injector.
The Caldari Logisitics is shield heavy and a bit faster. Using all the shield regen potential allows it to enter the hot zone quickly and revive and refit downed players. Then take cover themselves to quickly recover from damage taken. Injectors and hives seemed a really good fit.
As the armor tank of the class, the Gallente Logisitcs is better suited to keep pace with Heavy partners. Keeping a Heavy's armor repped is key in the fight. So hence the repair tool.
Minmatar Logistics is the fastest and the hacking bonus has always seemed fitting as well as practical for the team.
So these were not arbitrary decisions on my part. In fact, if you really look carefully, they are no more or less 'restrictive' than most of the bonuses that are out there for any suit. It is up to the player to decide if they want to take advantage of what the suit has to offer. It does not keep them from fitting it how they want, there is just less incentive to do so. Which seems to be one of the main goals in the debate. To give Logistics less incentive to try and fit suits for more of a slayer role. |
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Vulpes Dolosus
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
179
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Posted - 2013.11.06 13:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
The Logi needs to be a heavy suit, honestly. I don't see happening, but it would solve the problem. Make it as fast/ a bit faster than the current commando and redo to slot layout a little; keep the single weapon and equipment slots. Boom problem solved.
Dropship Specialist: AKA Clinically Insane
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D34NOS MAZDA
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL The Ascendancy
199
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Posted - 2013.11.06 13:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
Timothy Reaper wrote:I think RydogV has it about right. Everyone wants a simple solution to a problem that is not simple. RydogV seems to have ost of the bases covered.
What Reaper said |
Nirwanda Vaughns
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
174
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Posted - 2013.11.06 13:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
Also in EVE each race has a specialized form of EWar, caldari have bonus to jammers, gallente to turret dampeners, minmatar is target painters and amarr is neutralizers so having each races logi tailored to one equipment is in keeping with the lore. Also restricting to a sidearm could work its just folk want the damage of an AR or AsScr. filling all the equipment slots wont stop assault logis. they'll just use std or adv stuff and run proto rifles and damage mods. keeping to a sidearm will for a logi into being a support role.
I'm exactly the same, ever since i got my proto logi i've become more an aggressive player, i tend to carry rep/ammo hives uplink and a scanner more than anything instead of hanging back and lookign after my team mates like a logi should. Also if i had the same skills in an SMG that i have in my AR (which i have on a minny assault alt) the SMG is a very viable primary weapon and a logi could use it to help put a few rounds into any enemy to help out if needed. i've been using an alt that doesn't have as much weaponry skills and its actually been refreshing being forced back into that support role and its reminded me of why i wanted to be a logi in the first place.
people just boo-hoo cos they want the best pf everything. look at all the whining about the caldari assault and logi not long back but you just suck it up and adapt. i have all my AR skills to 5 so if they removes light weapon from my logi suit i'd be a bit gutted but i have other suits that would benefit from the AR and i'd just skill into SMGs, which by the way i'm already doing because i've been using them on the minny alt and wanting to start using them on this char.
CCP have said that the base skills on the suits liek the shield recharge and the 1hps will have to stay for a while, something to do with the way the item table is read that they all have to have the same skill bonus until they get round to changing the code but if they change the logi bonus to a certain role bonus based on equipment it would work. its done so for the past 10yr in eve. in reality though i think instead of a skill bonus it shoudl perhaps be the suits role bonus which is a fixed boost to something which isn't effected by skills so liek with the gallente logi you'd get the 5% per level to cpu/pg of equipment the 1hpx per level but then a flat 10% to repper amount. you don't have to use a repper but if you do it'd just be more effective on that suit. |
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