DUST Search - Remove the WP system

TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote:

WP's, as of right now, are a terrible mechanic. Farming WP's for orbitals is already an issue (as proven by implementing mechanics to limit accrual) and really contributes nothing else to the fight except for post-game epeen scratching. When a logibro does good in a match (and I'm measuring "good" as end-game WP's, as most people do (for whatever reason)) and goes 6/8, the guy that placed second with their 19/0 comes onto the forums to QQ about how he did better but didn't place as high because of "no-skill WP farming".

Another issue that comes with WP's is that not every action is rewarded. If a sniper is on a mic and is calling out targets, he gets no WP reward. If an AV player keeps a vehicle out of play (not destroyed, just pinned down), he is not rewarded. There are many other instances where someone could contribute to the team, but won't because of the "what's in it for me?" mentality. There's also the cases where you'd want someone to not collect WP's for actions (blowing up supply depots, injector spam).

So how would we get orbitals if we can't farm them? By creating new content, such as secondary objectives. This game is extremely straightforward with its in-game objectives - Cap the points or kill everyone. The game has no variables or anything to make the matches more dynamic. Rather than strictly only having points A-E, add a few secondary objectives to the map. Hack the broadcast node to get access to an orbital timer. Destroy the defenders (FW / PC) disruption tower to allow installation calls. Countless other things could be added as secondary objectives that would make the game more interesting.

WP's are terrible. They create a mentality of "what's in it for me?" on potentially helpful actions and reward other actions that would be deemed detrimental to the team. There's an opportunity to replace this mechanic with new content that would be well-received (at this point, anything new would be well received). Please remove WP's.

Post your ideas for possible WP replacement mechanics.

TL;DR - Paragraph 4.

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TheAmazing FlyingPig Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 4362	Posted - 2013.10.29 19:46:00 - [1] - Quote WP's, as of right now, are a terrible mechanic. Farming WP's for orbitals is already an issue (as proven by implementing mechanics to limit accrual) and really contributes nothing else to the fight except for post-game epeen scratching. When a logibro does good in a match (and I'm measuring "good" as end-game WP's, as most people do (for whatever reason)) and goes 6/8, the guy that placed second with their 19/0 comes onto the forums to QQ about how he did better but didn't place as high because of "no-skill WP farming". Another issue that comes with WP's is that not every action is rewarded. If a sniper is on a mic and is calling out targets, he gets no WP reward. If an AV player keeps a vehicle out of play (not destroyed, just pinned down), he is not rewarded. There are many other instances where someone could contribute to the team, but won't because of the "what's in it for me?" mentality. There's also the cases where you'd want someone to not collect WP's for actions (blowing up supply depots, injector spam). So how would we get orbitals if we can't farm them? By creating new content, such as secondary objectives. This game is extremely straightforward with its in-game objectives - Cap the points or kill everyone. The game has no variables or anything to make the matches more dynamic. Rather than strictly only having points A-E, add a few secondary objectives to the map. Hack the broadcast node to get access to an orbital timer. Destroy the defenders (FW / PC) disruption tower to allow installation calls. Countless other things could be added as secondary objectives that would make the game more interesting. WP's are terrible. They create a mentality of "what's in it for me?" on potentially helpful actions and reward other actions that would be deemed detrimental to the team. There's an opportunity to replace this mechanic with new content that would be well-received (at this point, anything new would be well received). Please remove WP's. Post your ideas for possible WP replacement mechanics. TL;DR - Paragraph 4. Derp
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6793	Posted - 2013.10.29 20:33:00 - [2] - Quote So what should SP and ISK rewards be based on? just how long you spend in a battle? I would like winners get 2x that SP and ISK; would incentive people to do whatever it takes to win, instead of just what yields the most WP. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads Gû¦Gû+
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3746	Posted - 2013.10.29 20:44:00 - [3] - Quote Without WP how could I know how much I am contributing. I like WP but they shouldn't be tied to OB strikes. ISK is what created the "What's in it for me?" mind-set. "All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 1578	Posted - 2013.10.29 20:46:00 - [4] - Quote Signed Remove WPs.... Especially Paragraph 4 Wins need to matter more than kill/WP Whoring CEO of The Corporate Raiders, We're still recruiting... Level 1 Forum Warrior
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 45	Posted - 2013.10.29 21:29:00 - [5] - Quote Good idea about the secondary objectives (I'm sure it's been brought up before!) as they would, as you say, add a greater depth to battles than the current "Objectives or Death!"
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 1578	Posted - 2013.10.29 21:29:00 - [6] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Without WP how could I know how much I am contributing. I like WP but they shouldn't be tied to OB strikes. ISK is what created the "What's in it for me?" mind-set. does WP really show how much you contribute? CEO of The Corporate Raiders, We're still recruiting... Level 1 Forum Warrior
Altina McAlterson Pure Innocence. EoN. 684	Posted - 2013.10.29 21:32:00 - [7] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: True Adamance wrote: Without WP how could I know how much I am contributing. I like WP but they shouldn't be tied to OB strikes. ISK is what created the "What's in it for me?" mind-set. does WP really show how much you contribute? Only how much you contribute to the OB.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3750	Posted - 2013.10.29 21:39:00 - [8] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: True Adamance wrote: Without WP how could I know how much I am contributing. I like WP but they shouldn't be tied to OB strikes. ISK is what created the "What's in it for me?" mind-set. does WP really show how much you contribute? When I'm sitting in my tank with 2700+ WP and 25 Kills under my belt.... yeah yeah it does 25x50= 1250 (right) so those other WP must have come from Installation kills Vehicle Kills If you see no other tanks on the map I'm doing my job right. "All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
TheAmazing FlyingPig Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 4364	Posted - 2013.10.29 21:46:00 - [9] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Killar-12 wrote: True Adamance wrote: Without WP how could I know how much I am contributing. I like WP but they shouldn't be tied to OB strikes. ISK is what created the "What's in it for me?" mind-set. does WP really show how much you contribute? When I'm sitting in my tank with 2700+ WP and 25 Kills under my belt.... yeah yeah it does 25x50= 1250 (right) so those other WP must have come from Installation kills Vehicle Kills If you see no other tanks on the map I'm doing my job right. That's the thing though - WP doesn't directly relate to contribution. You get some for doing specific actions, but there's no reward for scaring away infantry, providing mobile cover for allies, or any action aside from killing or destroying. The reward should be a victory, not some extra WP's to lord over the other guys. The current WP system forces players to do specific tasks, regardless if it's actually helpful or not. Removing the system entirely would change the way people play so a match isn't about who can land more orbitals, but what team is actually better than the other. Never forget
Altina McAlterson Pure Innocence. EoN. 684	Posted - 2013.10.29 21:55:00 - [10] - Quote The only thing I see is if certain actions would be required to call in an OB then a losing team could simply be prevented from getting the OB by protecting those points. And calling an OB to soften up a position before moving in is most of the point. If something like that has been done in another game and it worked then let me know, sadly DUST is my only experience with online FPS. Always been the single player type.

m twiggz Eternal Beings 115	Posted - 2013.10.29 21:59:00 - [11] - Quote TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote: WP's, as of right now, are a terrible mechanic. Farming WP's for orbitals is already an issue (as proven by implementing mechanics to limit accrual) and really contributes nothing else to the fight except for post-game epeen scratching. When a logibro does good in a match (and I'm measuring "good" as end-game WP's, as most people do (for whatever reason)) and goes 6/8, the guy that placed second with their 19/0 comes onto the forums to QQ about how he did better but didn't place as high because of "no-skill WP farming". Another issue that comes with WP's is that not every action is rewarded. If a sniper is on a mic and is calling out targets, he gets no WP reward. If an AV player keeps a vehicle out of play (not destroyed, just pinned down), he is not rewarded. There are many other instances where someone could contribute to the team, but won't because of the "what's in it for me?" mentality. There's also the cases where you'd want someone to not collect WP's for actions (blowing up supply depots, injector spam). So how would we get orbitals if we can't farm them? By creating new content, such as secondary objectives. This game is extremely straightforward with its in-game objectives - Cap the points or kill everyone. The game has no variables or anything to make the matches more dynamic. Rather than strictly only having points A-E, add a few secondary objectives to the map. Hack the broadcast node to get access to an orbital timer. Destroy the defenders (FW / PC) disruption tower to allow installation calls. Countless other things could be added as secondary objectives that would make the game more interesting. WP's are terrible. They create a mentality of "what's in it for me?" on potentially helpful actions and reward other actions that would be deemed detrimental to the team. There's an opportunity to replace this mechanic with new content that would be well-received (at this point, anything new would be well received). Please remove WP's. Post your ideas for possible WP replacement mechanics. TL;DR - Paragraph 4. War points are just like any other point systems in FPS games. You receive points for taking objectives, kills, assists, scans, healing, resupplying, etc. No other games that I've played do snipers receive points for calling out players positions, or do players who don't destroy enemy vehicles receive points for keeping them out of play. Why must everyone receive points for simple tactical gameplay? The tactical gameplay helps the team win, those players know their roles and know they will not receive points for doing so. I've never heard a sniper complain of such, or a player complain about not getting WP for aimlessly throwing AV at a tank. If you truly feel that war points are useless, then what would you put in place of it? I'm completely on board with your idea of adding in more content, such as installation calls, broadcast nodes, etc. such are suppose to be implemented in the game at some point already. Also more game modes other than the basic three that are included in all games. At that point wouldn't war points still be needed? Otherwise rendering the use of installation call in, broadcast nodes, etc. useless, because you would need some kind of squad or team points to use those features. As for you saying people QQ about going 19-0 while the logi is at the top of the leaderboard with 6/8 and a bunch of WP is just pathetic on those players behalf. I've learned that people with QQ about anything in this game, then causing CCP to fix things that don't really matter instead of focusing on the real problems and adding in more content. People will complain regardless of what happens. The simple fact is that the end of the match leaderboard doesn't mean who the better player is. If someone is upset with not being number one then that sounds more like a ego/confidence problem, which would probably be better sorted out in real life. None the less I very rarely see people in matches "farming war points". I play as a logi, in a good match I receive anywhere between 2500-4000 WP. But I do not sit in the redline letting my uplinks get all my points, or sit at a supply depot and drop hives at blueberries feet. I'm on the battlefield; repping players, placing uplinks in tactical spots, bringing nano hives to the guys on the front lines, scanning red berries, as well as getting my fair share of kills. Honestly I don't check my WP until the end of the match, because stats don't matter to me, just the win does. To say that someone that has a large amount of WP and low kills didn't help the team is just nonsense, you must have never played with any good logis then. War points might not be a top-notch system at this point, but some kind of point accumulation system is needed. I see far bigger problems with the game than something this silly. EDIT: Not to mention the simple fact that well places orbitals can help a losing team win, or help a winning team seal that victory. How else would squads receive orbitals if not for war points?
I-Shayz-I 1185	Posted - 2013.10.29 22:14:00 - [12] - Quote I think that warpoints enforce this idea that "whatever weapon/equipment setup makes the most points is what's the most effective". It's similar to the "like" system here on the forums. Most of the time it shows their proper reputation...but there are a certain amount of players that make like farms in order to make themseleves have more likes....and it skews the system List of Most Important Threads I make logistics videos! (Insert future link here)
abarkrishna The Elysian Knights 27	Posted - 2013.10.30 04:11:00 - [13] - Quote Without Wp there is no way of knowing who is being helpful and who is being useless. While I agree that the system is not perfect and could use work, I do not think removing it would be good. but simply because Wp are directly related to things people do in battles.(Uplinks, scanners, rep tools, hives, injectors) It should be clear to you but i am aware of the intelligence of many of you after reading through posts such as this one, so i am going to clarify it for you. People with more Wp are more valuable. Not because of the orbital possibility but because Wp directly relate to ones involvement in the game. Tell me how can someone "Farm Wp" in a way that has a negative effect in the game? By placing nanohives and uplinks on the front lines? By scanning the enemies and equipment for your team? Yes I admit some people have been known to revive people in front of enemies for the wp but that is very rare. Instead of complaining they should be taken away you should be asking for more to be awarded. Maybe come up with a list of equipment and actions that would reward players for their involvement. Like a long range visual scanner for snipers that highlight enemies in their visual scope. You seem decently intelligent i am sure you could think of more ideas. Think about it. Actually think. Why not improve the What's in it for me mechanic and reward people for doing more tasks that are beneficial to the team. Like saving a teammate, or revenge kills, there are so many things you could reward making it a way more customizable allowing people to earn Wp from a much larger variety of game play. Instead of restricting Wp or eliminating them we should increase the tasks that reward them and increase the amount needed for Orbital strikes Even if they got rid of Wp rewarding orbitals i would still like Wp to be awarded so i can keep my squads good by kicking people who do nothing for my team like a guy who gets 50 wp in an entire skirmish for example. Every game has some sort of reward point system. (Bf3 for example) This game just gives out a reward for a group effort because it rewards team playing far more than most other games which as you should know is dusts entire premise.
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2368	Posted - 2013.10.30 04:30:00 - [14] - Quote WPs are a measure of contribution to the win. No, they aren't perfect. But that's a reason to improve, not remove them. Decouple them from Orbitals if you can find a better mechanism for controling them. The current mechanism smacks of a kill streak to me anyway.
Logi Bro Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN. 2287	Posted - 2013.10.30 04:58:00 - [15] - Quote Love the secondary objectives idea, though as other people have said, we need WPs to determine SP gains, there is no advantage to being a great player if you don't get at least marginally greater rewards than the guy rubber banding in the MCC. Been Logistics since before it was cool.
Zat Earthshatter Ghosts Of Ourselves 382	Posted - 2013.10.30 06:19:00 - [16] - Quote It seems that OP's issue mostly boils down to: 1. the ability to "farm" orbital call-ins 2. Inability to factor intangible actions like using the mic and true tactical prowess. #2 can be easily solved for those in player corporations: a DUST-ification of the Medal system of EVE. Although this does nothing for pubs, it will greatly help with identifying those vital abilities that you just can't track with a stats screen. #1 would require a completely new mechanic. As is, using WP feels too much like CoD "scorestreaks" - a system that tends to benefit "Flavor of the Month" users and pubstompers. i'll throw out a few ideas: 1a) EndWar system. A meter is visibly added to the GUI of squad leaders, and this meter recharges slowly over time. This "charge" can then be spent on OBs, emergency clone reinforcements, or even Installation call-ins. This also solves the issue of Squad Leaders often not knowing they are, in fact, Squad Leaders. Recharge means both teams are on even ground for calling-in OBs. 1b) "ISK War" system. Spend ISK for an OB, but earn back a percentage of the ISK killed by the strike. Stomping MLT users in this system is unprofitable, but one stands to earn greatly by attacking Proto teams. Accuracy and tactical recon are also necessary for a profitable game in this system. Gives each OB call more impact for the user, while offering a new route to make ISK for intelligent usage. Each of those two ideas solve unique problems on top of OP's concerns, while having distinct drawbacks that reduce the allure of abusing OBs.
Avinash Decker Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 82	Posted - 2013.10.30 07:32:00 - [17] - Quote TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote: WP's, as of right now, are a terrible mechanic. Farming WP's for orbitals is already an issue (as proven by implementing mechanics to limit accrual) and really contributes nothing else to the fight except for post-game epeen scratching. When a logibro does good in a match (and I'm measuring "good" as end-game WP's, as most people do (for whatever reason)) and goes 6/8, the guy that placed second with their 19/0 comes onto the forums to QQ about how he did better but didn't place as high because of "no-skill WP farming". Another issue that comes with WP's is that not every action is rewarded. If a sniper is on a mic and is calling out targets, he gets no WP reward. If an AV player keeps a vehicle out of play (not destroyed, just pinned down), he is not rewarded. There are many other instances where someone could contribute to the team, but won't because of the "what's in it for me?" mentality. There's also the cases where you'd want someone to not collect WP's for actions (blowing up supply depots, injector spam). So how would we get orbitals if we can't farm them? By creating new content, such as secondary objectives. This game is extremely straightforward with its in-game objectives - Cap the points or kill everyone. The game has no variables or anything to make the matches more dynamic. Rather than strictly only having points A-E, add a few secondary objectives to the map. Hack the broadcast node to get access to an orbital timer. Destroy the defenders (FW / PC) disruption tower to allow installation calls. Countless other things could be added as secondary objectives that would make the game more interesting. WP's are terrible. They create a mentality of "what's in it for me?" on potentially helpful actions and reward other actions that would be deemed detrimental to the team. There's an opportunity to replace this mechanic with new content that would be well-received (at this point, anything new would be well received). Please remove WP's. Post your ideas for possible WP replacement mechanics. TL;DR - Paragraph 4. This isn't a very productive idea. One of the few points you argue is that a person doesn't get rewarded for some things he does with the warpoint system while as removing it won't make that person anymore accomplished if it stays or not , you also argued that some random person that goes 19/0 will complain about not reaching the top while I hardly see such a person complain about something like that if some people do, why should CCP remove a huge feature over some people complaining anyway? Additionally if said person achieves 19/0 and another 6/8 then how do each one of them gets ranked and how will the team know who contributed the most? That mentality is also complemented by isk and sp should we remove those too? The OB issue is a legitimate concern , but your proposed idea can be implemented without removing WPs. What is the point of removing a feature that is causing a perceived problem in some scenarios while as you can add the proposed idea and keep the feature?
General John Ripper MoIden Heath PoIice Department EoN. 11347	Posted - 2013.10.30 07:54:00 - [18] - Quote denied Dust 514's #1 Forum Warrior Founder of the Forum Warrior Club King of Tacos
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1629	Posted - 2013.10.30 08:19:00 - [19] - Quote It's alright, flying piggy. I know where you're coming from. But I'd say remove the K/D scores from the scoreboards; I agree with everyone else that WP is too crucial right now to remove completely. And as for orbital farming: either remove WP from orbitals completely, or distribute all orbital WP at the end of the match. > "I will show you fear in a handful of dust." T.S. Eliot, The Wasteland
Blake Kingston Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 138	Posted - 2013.10.30 09:00:00 - [20] - Quote Overall it's about winning matches. Someone who didn't care about winning matches is not going to magically start caring about it when you take all action based WP gains. No, they aren't.



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