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Smooth Assassin Stardust incorporation 302	Posted - 2013.10.29 18:18:00 - [1] - Quote Don't expect any more nerfs to forge gun They said it can be used to snipe and here's what it really said: "This will increase the skill required to GÇ£snipeGÇ¥ with forge guns, while still making it a very capable anti-vehicle weapon that will still hit your target where you want. Now it will rely a little less on its splash and more on its direct hit". Anyways i think it's good enough i won't die as much in my scout suit by forge gunners. *Assassination is my thing.*
Senator Snipe SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 60	Posted - 2013.11.17 06:46:00 - [2] - Quote noob.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4491	Posted - 2013.11.17 06:48:00 - [3] - Quote Still a crutch. *Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant* *Beta Vet* *Level 4 Forum Warrior*
jerrmy12 kahoalii The dyst0pian Corporation Zero-Day 91	Posted - 2013.11.17 06:52:00 - [4] - Quote Smooth Assassin wrote: Don't expect any more nerfs to forge gun They said it can be used to snipe and here's what it really said: "This will increase the skill required to GÇ£snipeGÇ¥ with forge guns, while still making it a very capable anti-vehicle weapon that will still hit your target where you want. Now it will rely a little less on its splash and more on its direct hit". Anyways i think it's good enough i won't die as much in my scout suit by forge gunners. the problem with forge guns is the assault variant proto assault 1600 or 1700>900/1000 regular proto forge gun 1500>1300 or something a dropship can be hit across the map with 1500/2300 hp, so....SLIGHTIST nerf on regular, nerf on assault, proto breach 2700>2200
Cosgar ParagonX 7826	Posted - 2013.11.17 06:53:00 - [5] - Quote I think they meant sniping infantry. You still have the issue of forge gunners being able to hide behind draw distance and wrecking tanks from across the map. Also, there's the issue of putting the forge gun in line with other AV with the upcoming vehicle changes. There's going to be a higher emphasis on point defense with AV than overall map defense. Shouldn't terribly affect how the forge gun's role on the field, but make AV and piloting more fair and fun for both sides. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Luna Angelo We Who Walk Alone 120	Posted - 2013.11.17 06:53:00 - [6] - Quote I use it on my heavy as an AV weapon. No sidearm, so I get pretty good at killing people with it. You'll still die. I am the Horseless Headsman. Director and COO of We Who Walk Alone Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinion of sheep.
hackerzilla Defenders of the Helghast Dream 476	Posted - 2013.11.17 06:54:00 - [7] - Quote Senator Snipe wrote: noob. Snipe I understand that you are a dedicated FGer, but honestly can't you see how broken it is? *-Minmatar Scout-* *-Minmatar Logistics-* *-Mass Driver and Sniper Rifle Expert-*
Rusty Shallows 498	Posted - 2013.11.17 07:16:00 - [8] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Still a crutch. Are you talking about your armor/damage mod stacked gal logi with Assault Rifles? Nice. "She may not be Miss Right but she'll do right now," Thank you SR-71
Kasote Denzara A Vulture 809	Posted - 2013.11.17 07:31:00 - [9] - Quote It is only the Assault variants that need to be dealt with. They do too much in too little of time with not enough consequences. That's it. "I am a mercenary, I do as I need. I'll shed Amarrian blood for the freedom of my Minmitar allies but only for a price."
Cosgar ParagonX 7829	Posted - 2013.11.17 07:36:00 - [10] - Quote Kasote Denzara wrote: It is only the Assault variants that need to be dealt with. They do too much in too little of time with not enough consequences. That's it. 2 options: -Switch the damage of the assault with the standard. -"Cancelling" a charge fires a weaker shot. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"

Kasote Denzara A Vulture 810	Posted - 2013.11.17 07:40:00 - [11] - Quote Cosgar wrote: 2 options: -Switch the damage of the assault with the standard. -"Cancelling" a charge fires a weaker shot. It's been an idea that they each took a different form of punishment for use. Standard, able to move, okay alpha, okay charge time. The "average" FG. Breach, unable to move, highest alpha, slow charge, most accurate. Assault, able to move, low alpha, fast charge, least accurate. At least this is what a good number of us FG users believe they should be... Sigh. "I am a mercenary, I do as I need. I'll shed Amarrian blood for the freedom of my Minmitar allies but only for a price."
8213 BIG BAD W0LVES 727	Posted - 2013.11.17 07:45:00 - [12] - Quote Funny how they have levels of Forge Gun, when the Militia Forge is Capable of OHK-ing any infantry player in the game, lol... It's primarily an AV weapon. If a Forge hits me, I know it's 99.99% from dumb luck, and I don't care.
Rusty Shallows 499	Posted - 2013.11.17 07:58:00 - [13] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Kasote Denzara wrote: It is only the Assault variants that need to be dealt with. They do too much in too little of time with not enough consequences. That's it. 2 options: -Switch the damage of the assault with the standard. -"Cancelling" a charge fires a weaker shot. The held charge variants are terrible. 3.5 seconds is combat ineffective and always will be unless they severely reduce vehicle speeds. The argument on the damage switching was originally brought up as a back-door way to nerf the entire class of weapon. No alpha damage weapon in this game should be able to instant fire, holding charge while taking time still results in the same thing in an around about way. That issue includes charged sniper rifles. Especially when a mouse is involved, some peoples aiming seems a little to good for a D3. The Forge Gun weapon needs a redesign and update. The concepts of Assault, Standard, and Breach simply don't mesh. "She may not be Miss Right but she'll do right now," Thank you SR-71
Foundation Seldon Gespenster Kompanie Villore Accords 190	Posted - 2013.11.17 08:06:00 - [14] - Quote 8213 wrote: Funny how they have levels of Forge Gun, when the Militia Forge is Capable of OHK-ing any infantry player in the game, lol... It's primarily an AV weapon. If a Forge hits me, I know it's 99.99% from dumb luck, and I don't care. Do you play this game? Forge guns are incredibly potent at taking out infantry if they can find an area where they can safely shoot down from. Give a Forge Gunner a tower and they've effectively shut down a huge swath of the map from both a vehicle perspective and an infantry objective perspective. It's not an Anti Vehicle weapon, it's an Anti-Everything weapon. ~~~~ As for the topic at hand I do agree that the Assault variant of the weapon and the normal variant probably need their damage values switched and the Breach either needs significantly more damage or the assault and normal variants need their values nerfed in order to justify its use over the much more versatile alternatives. Or hell, why not just remove it? I do wonder though, would Forge Sniping need to be nerfed (from an infantry perspective) if deployable shields were a factor in this game? My main issue is with them able to get to a tower with repping nanohive support and them becoming EXTREMELY difficult to ever displace from that point on. Like I mentioned before they can quickly and easily 1hit KO any person trying to hack an objective in their sight ... but if we had shields we could hack an objective while covering ourselves from their fire. 1.7 LAVs - Thoughts and Discussion
Rusty Shallows 499	Posted - 2013.11.17 08:39:00 - [15] - Quote Foundation Seldon wrote: Do you play this game? Forge guns are incredibly potent at taking out infantry if they can find an area where they can safely shoot down from. Give a Forge Gunner a tower and they've effectively shut down a huge swath of the map from both a vehicle perspective and an infantry objective perspective. It's not an Anti Vehicle weapon, it's an Anti-Everything weapon. I've seen people on Line Harvest trying to Tower Forge Gun Snipe. It has never swayed the battle once much less inflict casualties like those by people on ground level. I've gotten more kills shooting up at those sitting-duck bozos than receiving. The times it can effectively kill while "Tower Sniping" are at heights that the ARs and ScRs can reach. Which still out DPS the splash. As a fact the only times the unstoppable Tower Sniping has been pulled off is on single objectives on specific maps because the Dev design team never learned the lesson from the original Magnus Peak map with regards to sniper rifles. Even then the most they do is break the game by preventing any hacking, which is still pretty bad IMO. At that height you can't effectively snipe without a scope and the range actually matters since the hypotenuse can quickly out reach the weapon stats. Foundation Seldon wrote: As for the topic at hand I do agree that the Assault variant of the weapon and the normal variant probably need their damage values switched and the Breach either needs significantly more damage or the assault and normal variants need their values nerfed in order to justify its use over the much more versatile alternatives. Or hell, why not just remove it? If anything the Standard and Breach need to be removed. They are combat ineffective. Foundation Seldon wrote: I do wonder though, would Forge Sniping need to be nerfed (from an infantry perspective) if deployable shields were a factor in this game? My main issue is with them able to get to a tower with repping nanohive support and them becoming EXTREMELY difficult to ever displace from that point on. Like I mentioned before they can quickly and easily 1hit KO any person trying to hack an objective in their sight ... but if we had shields we could hack an objective while covering ourselves from their fire. If the Dev's let players fire through a deploy-able shield or even walk-through this game will become even more broken. I do like the idea of throwing up a shield while hacking. When map design fails give players options. Hopefully people won't be able to abuse them too much in other ways. "She may not be Miss Right but she'll do right now," Thank you SR-71
Kasote Denzara A Vulture 810	Posted - 2013.11.17 08:47:00 - [16] - Quote Rusty Shallows wrote: If anything the Standard and Breach need to be removed. They are combat ineffective. lolno. Holding the charge with the standard or even bunny hopping with the breach is useful. You can't corner peak properly with the Assault. The Assaults also don't get to the near-broken state that they are until the prototype levels and that's because of the improper damage scaling that they have. The standard Forge Gun is cost-efficient against LAVs and infantry. The Breach is cost-efficient for taking out low-grade HAVs, a lot of dropships, and installations (though standard is fine for this). The Assault is just plain silly at the amount its doing now. It's cost-efficient towards destroying all vehicles, however. Might as well remove everything but the Plasma Rifle if you refuse to acknowledge the purpose, strength, and weakness of the other weapons since they then become "combat ineffective". -A word from that guy that lols around with a prof. 4 Forge Gun and Nova Knives that is anti-infantry. "I am a mercenary, I do as I need. I'll shed Amarrian blood for the freedom of my Minmitar allies but only for a price."
Foundation Seldon Gespenster Kompanie Villore Accords 192	Posted - 2013.11.17 09:12:00 - [17] - Quote Rusty Shallows wrote: I've seen people on Line Harvest trying to Tower Forge Gun Snipe. It has never swayed the battle once much less inflict casualties like those by people on ground level. I've gotten more kills shooting up at those sitting-duck bozos than receiving. The times it can effectively kill while "Tower Sniping" are at heights that the ARs and ScRs can reach. Which still out DPS the splash. As a fact the only times the unstoppable Tower Sniping has been pulled off is on single objectives on specific maps because the Dev design team never learned the lesson from the original Magnus Peak map with regards to sniper rifles. Even then the most they do is break the game by preventing any hacking, which is still pretty bad IMO. At that height you can't effectively snipe without a scope and the range actually matters since the hypotenuse can quickly out reach the weapon stats. I feel like the Forge is much more prominent on Domination for the reasons you listed. Line Harvest, Skim Junction, and Fracture Road are all maps that emphasize and reward getting Forges up in high places to rain down fire on the people below and it's in these situations where the power of the forge and the difficulty of displacing one are really amplified. "Even then the most they do is break the game by preventing any hacking" I don't see how you can downplay this, we both agree that it's a pretty huge problem in these situations. Rusty Shallows wrote: If anything the Standard and Breach need to be removed. They are combat ineffective. We'll agree to disagree on the Standard variant, for me at least I'm more comfortable with it, it's just the damage values on the Assault more or less make it the undoubtedly inferior choice against vehicles. 1.7 LAVs - Thoughts and Discussion
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4493	Posted - 2013.11.17 09:18:00 - [18] - Quote Rusty Shallows wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Still a crutch. Are you talking about your armor/damage mod stacked gal logi with Assault Rifles? Nice. Fun fact: I ain't using a Gal Logi for the reason you just stated. I refuse to use a logi as an assault suit, anyone who knows me can tell you that I only run Gal and Amarr Assaults. *Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant* *Beta Vet* *Level 4 Forum Warrior*
Rusty Shallows 499	Posted - 2013.11.17 10:03:00 - [19] - Quote Kasote Denzara wrote: Rusty Shallows wrote: If anything the Standard and Breach need to be removed. They are combat ineffective. lolno. Holding the charge with the standard or even bunny hopping with the breach is useful. You can't corner peak properly with the Assault. The Assaults also don't get to the near-broken state that they are until the prototype levels and that's because of the improper damage scaling that they have. The standard Forge Gun is cost-efficient against LAVs and infantry. The Breach is cost-efficient for taking out low-grade HAVs, a lot of dropships, and installations (though standard is fine for this). The Assault is just plain silly at the amount its doing now. It's cost-efficient towards destroying all vehicles, however Excuse me did you just say fatties can bunny hop? We are talking about a suit that can actually have difficulty clearing low objects (i.e. curbs). Not to make light of an immobile weapon suddenly being able to move through and absurd glitch. I have to agree it is a useful glitch. However if this is such an issue then why haven't the Devs made fixing it a priority? My guess is they are looking at the weapon use statistics and decided to backlog it. The Standard Forge Guns lost their effectiveness against LAVs after the last speed boost in Chromosome (or was it the build before that?). With the exception being an unfitted militia LAV. I was there when it happened. You could feel the reduction in the time to getting pancaked out-racing the charging time. It was a terrible time for a weapon which still had hit detection issues. As more of us got our hp-buff skills higher it was becoming common to needing more than one hit to kill LAVs. Seven or so seconds plus map terrain and road kill made life hard. Anything with decent AV characteristics can take out low-end HAVs with no problem. That is a serious issue and a prime reason why an entire part of this game needed redesign. The Standard Forge Guns are not good for taking out installations. Three or more shots is rediculously time communing. In that same time frame an AR with damage mods could take out three or more heavies suits easily. So I don't really see how this is cost effective. What Breach have been able to do to dropships has always been wrong and I've always voiced concern about it. That doesn't make the weapon combat effective if it is a one or three trick pony in ares that doesn't really matter toward victory. I'm not sure how to answer the argument that the prototype damages are broken. If your belief is that anything AV capable should never be a threat (or a very minor one unless in large numbers) to vehicles I can see the logic. Of course that would break the game for other reasons. I stand by my statement that a base time of 3.5 second renders Forge Guns combat ineffective. My assault forge with max skills takes 1.87 seconds and I regularly die to an Assault Rifle before the shot gets off. Even Rail Turrets have had a reduction in their trigger pull time while FGs remained the same. Holding a charge is useful, you are right about that. Being able to hold a charge with precision aim with a mouse is even worse. Neither of these make it any better than the AR or ScR in most combat situations. At most it is good for "lulz" while the people in the medium frames doing more dps that determine the battle. Kasote Denzara wrote: Might as well remove everything but the Plasma Rifle if you refuse to acknowledge the purpose, strength, and weakness of the other weapons since they then become "combat ineffective". No need for the hyperbole Kasote. I'm not your enemy unless you hate other people who use Forge Guns. Just a few words from a guy from second round registered closed beta who still remembers FG shots passing through targets and not even register anywhere. My favorite FG bugs being early this year sneaking up on snipers and sometimes having the explosion animation go off with no damage. "She may not be Miss Right but she'll do right now," Thank you SR-71
Rusty Shallows 499	Posted - 2013.11.17 10:07:00 - [20] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Rusty Shallows wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Still a crutch. Are you talking about your armor/damage mod stacked gal logi with Assault Rifles? Nice. Fun fact: I ain't using a Gal Logi for the reason you just stated. I refuse to use a logi as an assault suit, anyone who knows me can tell you that I only run Gal and Amarr Assaults. Gal Assault isn't capable of both a decent tank and damage mods, I have to choose one or the other. The Amarr assault has higher eHP than my assault and same damage output, but is slower. So VoV And yet you seem pretty amendment about defending the practice in your posts. Funny how that works out. "She may not be Miss Right but she'll do right now," Thank you SR-71

Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 705	Posted - 2013.11.17 10:33:00 - [21] - Quote Imagine a Thale user who had 1200 armour and whose weapon could shoot 300 meters as well as it could shoot you at 30 meters. Then imagine that your suit is 20 times larger than his suit. Also imagine that your suit makes a distinctive noise as it comes close to him yet his suit is silent. On top of this your suit draws in so he can see you but his suit is invisible unless you are close to him. Also imagine that this super powerful, heavily armoured, invisible, tiny suited player looks just like a nova knifer or an AR user unless you are right next to him. And lastly his bullets are so big that you cannot see where they were shot from as the bright blue effect takes up 1/5 of the screen as it hits you. Lastly the map you play on has cover only he can hide behind while you have to play on a part of the map with zero cover. Forge guns are broken beyond any reasonable defence of them. Against tanks or against dropships. Big changes are needed. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4495	Posted - 2013.11.17 10:36:00 - [22] - Quote Rusty Shallows wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Rusty Shallows wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Still a crutch. Are you talking about your armor/damage mod stacked gal logi with Assault Rifles? Nice. Fun fact: I ain't using a Gal Logi for the reason you just stated. I refuse to use a logi as an assault suit, anyone who knows me can tell you that I only run Gal and Amarr Assaults. Gal Assault isn't capable of both a decent tank and damage mods, I have to choose one or the other. The Amarr assault has higher eHP than my assault and same damage output, but is slower. So VoV And yet you seem pretty adamant about defending the practice in your posts. Funny how that works out. Post Edit: What is really great is I've never specifically bitched about armor tanking + damage mod stacking together but here I have someone calling a non hitscan weapon a "crutch." Someone get me a spoon this is deliciously deceitful. "And yet you seem pretty adamant about defending the practice in your posts. Funny how that works out." Uuhh, no, I constantly attack logis and say they are OP as **. "armor tanking + damage mod" This is what 99% of Dust complains about, and I am sick and tired of this argument, as it isn't valid for assaults. "but here I have someone calling a non hitscan weapon a "crutch."" The projectile speed is so fast it's practically hitscan. In fact, I remember wolfman saying that they are considering turning rail guns (that includes forge) into a hit scan weapon, for that same reason. Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant Beta Vet Level 4 Forum Warrior**
Kasote Denzara A Vulture 810	Posted - 2013.11.17 10:47:00 - [23] - Quote I had to go to pastebin to choppily add all of what I was going to say to Rusty. Ignore the quote crap. I initially did it here but lazily moved it. http://pastebin.com/VnrhNqdw "I am a mercenary, I do as I need. I'll shed Amarrian blood for the freedom of my Minmitar allies but only for a price."
Rusty Shallows 500	Posted - 2013.11.17 10:52:00 - [24] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: snip Forge guns are broken beyond any reasonable defence of them. Against tanks or against dropships. Big changes are needed. Excuse me but it's pretty common knowledge that heavy suits are crap in competitive play. So stop with the invincibility melodrama. Rendering issues have been a persistent problem. It has screwed over snipers pretty good. I can't wait until CCP fixes it and people realize Large Rails have a range more than three times Forge Guns, a faster shot velocity, and better splash. Because it has always been good times when a HAV from a perfectly safe position spams an area and someday when they can scope and clearly see everything it will get even better. Can't help but notice you left out the part about how we currently have some armor tanking HAVs that might as well be invulnerable to all Forge Guns. So only the Forge Guns are broken, all of them, mainly because you have a vehicle they can hurt. Seems legit. "She may not be Miss Right but she'll do right now," Thank you SR-71
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 705	Posted - 2013.11.17 10:56:00 - [25] - Quote non sequiturs and straw men are hardly a valid response. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Rusty Shallows 501	Posted - 2013.11.17 11:03:00 - [26] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: "armor tanking + damage mod" This is what 99% of Dust complains about, and I am sick and tired of this argument, as it isn't valid for assaults. Fair enough. Cat Merc wrote: In fact, I remember wolfman saying that they are considering turning rail guns (that includes forge) into a hit scan weapon, for that same reason. At that point the direct damage would very likely need a nerf. Without another counter-balance they would completely ruin dropships otherwise. Going hitscan might actually make the arguments about the assault variant being over-powered true. Both Forge Guns and Rail Turrets would need a range reduction since hitting moving targets would become far easier. Neither of these weapons should ever replace the sniper rifle. "She may not be Miss Right but she'll do right now," Thank you SR-71
Rusty Shallows 501	Posted - 2013.11.17 11:07:00 - [27] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: assertions and straw men are hardly valid responses. Since your reply lacks relevance I shall ignore it. What you can't win by logic you end with name calling and nearly baseless accusations. Classy. "She may not be Miss Right but she'll do right now," Thank you SR-71
Rusty Shallows 503	Posted - 2013.11.17 11:27:00 - [28] - Quote Kasote Denzara wrote: I had to go to pastebin to choppily add all of what I was going to say to Rusty. Ignore the quote crap. I initially did it here but lazily moved it. http://pastebin.com/VnrhNqdw I've read the reply and understand we have our differences of opinion. My apologizes for going off about "bunny hopping" as it is a sore point for many of us fatties. The only nitpick I have is if Advanced Forge Guns are effective anti-vehicle then you've only been shooting at new players using junk and are hungry for Vehicle Upgrades SP. I can spam an all BPO LAV (4 million plus sp in Vehicle Upgrades) that laughs at Forge Guns. In this current game build I've died more HAV impacts than FGs. With the missile nerf I'll even be riding pretty around the guys with high-end swarm launcher fittings. Gunlogis which badly need buffing can tank the Dau Assault Forge Gun and that's the Advanced Assault Variant. "She may not be Miss Right but she'll do right now," Thank you SR-71
Smooth Assassin Stardust incorporation 360	Posted - 2013.11.17 13:52:00 - [29] - Quote Senator Snipe wrote: noob. Says the guy whos got less likes than me. *Assassination is my thing.*
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 1877	Posted - 2013.11.17 13:56:00 - [30] - Quote Its quite easy to kill a forgegunner on top of a tower. Grab a militia forgegun, charge it and release your shot once your reticle turns red. Insta kill granted and because it has such a huge range you can be sitting allmos everywhere from the map to counter him. Forget snipers they just wound him to force him back to cover. I shall show you a world, a world which you cant imagine, a world full off butthurt n00bs at the other end of my gun



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