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Announcement:CCP Statement with Regards to the CPM

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NanoCleric The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 76	Posted - 2013.11.05 15:19:00 - [1] - Quote Edit: Yes i kept typing CSM.. but obviously meant CPM. - Fixed I must say i agree with doing without the CPM.. But allow me to quality my statement. Some of the CPM members seem to think they represent the community, but to represent the community you have to understand the whole community and also engage with them, even if they don't engage with you. Otherwise you only represent the vocal side of the community. Please understand that the majority of communities like these tend to be those who simply log on, play and log off and don't look into the politics or ramblings and complaints and improvements etc.. So they are ignorant of what you are trying to achieve. It also makes it incredibly difficult if not impossible for you to engage with them and gather feedback and widespread opinions and the weighting of those opinons. The simple truth is you do not have the platform to be an effective CPM, you do not have the tools to engage with the playerbase. A forum, your own websites and communities are simple too small a proportion of the player base. An Alternative concept to the need for the cpm: If CCP wish to know what their players want and how their decisions will impact the community, it simply requires their programmers to add an interface into the game to engage with 'every active player'. This would come in the form of the update splash screen we are presented with whenever we log on. This interface would simply ask the player a question to do with whatever issues CCP are tackling and want feedback on, along with some checkboxes or radial buttons with replies. In the form of a mass survey which has far more chance to get replies as the players can just select one, hit submit and get straight into their game. This means no need for going to other websites, checking forums, or having to try and find the CPM members or spamming mailboxes which might get missed. The way things work currently is impractical. I for one don't seek out the coucil to voice my issues, and sure i have a fair few issues and insights into the game which i'm sure CCP would be interested to know, especially as i program games for a living too.. I'm also positive there are many other gamers out there with opinions and insight and suggestions which would be extremely valuable to CCP, but how many of those do you think can be bothered to go out of their way to find CPM members to speak with them about it? .. Very few across the majority i can assure you. That's called human nature. So.... Without a decent platform of engagement, the CPM only fuel the issues and ideas they themselves have or from the small 'vocal' community. Which may not reflect the thoughts and opinions of the whole playerbase. Despite the CPM's best efforts, of which it sounds like there's been many.. I'm sorry, but you just don't have the tools to manage the task at hand. So i'd want to see more engagement via the game with the community for 'quality assurance' than leaving it to Iron Wolf to assume that his opinion is gospol and he alone can assure the quality of the game... (Sorry but reading his post made me laugh, felt like being back in the school yard listening to the 'head boy'). One last point... If we do end up requiring non-CCP people on a form of council to decide matters. They should not consist of people who deem themselves of great importance. Leaders, people in power positions, people who can sway the masses... these are the worst possible choices that can be made. I never ever give positions of importance to people who 'want them' As they always have an ulterior motive or they can't handle the position and abuse their power and have delusions of granduar. The best people for tasks like this are those who have a lot of knowlegde but no ego that is thrown around. People who actually seek the position, but help out people of their own accord. If those people can be coaxed to help in their own capacity and are given the right means of engaging with the 'whole' community, then things like this can work. However... as it is at the moment.. we're better off without it.
NanoCleric The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 80	Posted - 2013.11.05 20:42:00 - [2] - Quote Starfire Revo wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Open question for the CPM / CCP Devs... Would you be willing to come to Corp / Alliance Private Chat Channels to have town hall meetings with our members? Let me elaborate: 1) Have one day a week or every other week that a Corp or Alliance can sign up wtih and you join our closed channel or we come to one you set up and we have a brief update on CPM / CCP actions and ellicit feedback and questions from the community writ large. I ran a live Q&A with Hans and Kane a while back. I'd be up for doing another if people are interested. I think things like this are great as they do engage with the community.. however.. this still only caters for the 'vocal' part of the community. What about all those casual gamers who don't have time to read the forums much and miss things like this, what about all the multitudes of people that the CPM members simply would not have the real life time to do face to face sessions like this, what about the new players who have no idea who these CPM members are, what about those who do not have PC's (and there's many many of them), what about the 'majority' of active gamers. Again this is only catering to the minority. Therefore it only addresses issues and ideas of the minority which shapes the game for the minority and not the majority. Sure, some things might be spot on that they do, and the majority might agree.. but at present it seems that people only get a say if they seek out the CPM.. and most people will not do that, it's just human nature and to most people, this is 'just a game'. That however does not mean they should be ignored. This is why i say they do not have the tools to be able to engage with the masses, and therefore cannot have a clear perspective of what the majority want to see. I mentioned in my previous post about interfaces and surveys delivered on the PS3, this could be coded to extract questions from a document which the CPM could even submit and maintain to get as much feedback as they can. There are means and ways for CCP to integrate this, though i still believe it should ideally fall to a CCP Staff member to manage such a task as what appears on the screen CCP are responsible for. The key point is the 'whole' community needs to be engaged by the representative without requiring the users to check forums, websites, go on IRC sessions etc... Humans are naturally lazy, and those who don't succumb to the lazyness don't always have the time to persue things like this. So the representatives should have the responsibility to maximize the engagement with the playerbase so they have a broader perspective of the majority opinions. Honestly.. if you can't represent the whole community, then your only serving yourselves. I mean this sentence in a very general way and would apply it to 'any' representation of any community in any form, and yourselves applys to the individual along with (friends and family politics). So without representing a whole community.. there's little point in it. At the end of the day, noone likes misrepresentation, and without engagement, that's what happens.
NanoCleric The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 80	Posted - 2013.11.06 09:52:00 - [3] - Quote Ivar Iosef wrote: The CPM have been working hard at reaching out to the community. I hear complaints of "vocal minority" but the truth is that if you sit in the corner and nurse your grudges to your chest, of course know one will hear you. Stand up, speak out. If you want a say in something, message a CPM to talk about it. Every game has a forum nowadays. To say "but not everyone is on the forums! It can't work!" is foolish. If you want to make your opinion known you can put in a little effort to be heard. I don't see eye to eye with every CPM, but I respect the work they have and will continue to do. They have helped CCP take an infant, stumbling game and helped it to begin crawling, if not walking yet. There is a long road ahead with the creation of the CPM White Paper, but hopefully CCP Shanghai will ignore the naysayers and fools like CCP Reykjavik once did with the CSM. I can understand what your saying, however it's not practical to expect people to come forward and express their opinions to gather a consensus on what a community wants. How many want to spend their free time clamouring over forums and being outspoken by others. The simple truth is many valuable opinions and insights hide away in those who don't come out to express them. However, if they are engaged, some real diamonds in the rough can be found. So the fact remains, that unless a platform is provided to engage with the masses to give them a simple quick means to provide their opinions, then they will just remain hidden. I can see you think everyone should be shouting their opinions out and believe everyone has access to forums etc.. but i can tell you for a fact that we've tried to get all our community members onto forums and we have close to 2k members in an alliance and only could get between 200-300 of them to actually go on the forums. That is a tiny minority in that community alone. I engaged with many players in the chat in game to find out why people aren't joining the forums and i was indeed suprised to find out just how many players do not own PC's, and only have their PS3. So we also tried to find other ways for them to access forums through phones, ps3 brower, etc... The truth is it's impractical. So i'm sorry to say but it's not foolish to say not everyone is on the forums, and i'm also sorry to have to say it's actually quite naieve to say otherwise, and i don't intend that as an attack, but you need to realise the facts behind the situation, these may be facts you were previously unaware of. All of you.. i'm sure you've all been egaged on the high streets in towns by surveys, or cold called with people wanting surveys.. none of us like to spend time doing them, and we all ignore those that are pushed to us. So sure, if we gave the community an 'in-game' means of feedback, i'm sure lots of people may just select the quickest option to bypass it. However.. if it's in-game, relevant and requires a response (not forgetting the option to abstain).. then we get mass feedback from the players. As i previously mentioned, CCP would need to be accountable for it's content so i'd advise it's run by a CCP Staff member as opposed to CPM, but if CCP were to code it in, and CPM delivered a document with the content then fair enough... but as it stands at the moment, i still can't trust a CPM who does not engage with the larger community to 'draw out' these opinions, as it becomes the voice of the minority. It is not the responsibility of the players to speak out, players just want to play a game and do have opinions, they have to be engaged to get those opinions, therefore it falls on CCP and CPM to get those opinions, and the only way to do that is to provide the 'tools' to make that as easy and quick as possible. I know i write a lot, any many skip the points i make because of that but unfortunately i find it difficult to be brief as i always feel i need to justify what i say. I write in the hope that the points i make can help push things forward.. though i have to reiterate.. until the CPM have the tools they need and do engage with others more than they do now (That's not to say work harder, just you need the tools to make it easier) .. then i simply don't believe the CPM truely 'can' represent the community's true feelings and thoughts. .. So i do still think that it should be a staff member, and to be rid of the CPM.. though i do thank them for the time they've put in thus far. ok, written enough.. though still want to say more.. you may cringe now. :)
NanoCleric The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 81	Posted - 2013.11.06 10:07:00 - [4] - Quote dustwaffle wrote: NanoCleric wrote: Snip AFAIK, it's not the responsibility of the CPM to come and hold your hand and 'reach out' to you. Not everyone has access to the forums? Why not? What's stopping someone from getting on a laptop/PC/smartphone/PS3 browser to come on and express their views? What's to stop them from doing it in a reasonable manner to lend more strengths to their arguments? Nothing. No one is responsible for such apathy but the players themselves. Sorry you obviously didn't read the whole lot, some people don't own the media to be able to get on the forums, many others as you say.. due to apathy don't want to. Though as i also said, that doesn't mean they don't have valuable opinions which should be heard. Companies should provide the means to get feedback if they want it.. it's not on the client to do it. Do you keep getting in touch with your ISP letting them know your happy with your service but if they just changed this one thing you'd be happier? Do you contact your tv provider and let them know if they just gave you this one channel you want and removed 4 others then you'd be much happier? Do you bother getting in touch with anyone? :) .... Think about it.. So sorry, you and i have to agree to disagree.... and it's precisely that premise which is the whole point. People have different opinions and they need to be sought out. So many players will be ignorant that this is even going on.. so many don't know who the CPM are, so many don't even know we have a CPM or what it is. i.e. it's always on the company to approach the client, not vice versa... and if they don't own a PC, do you think they are going to find their nearest netcafe just to express an opinion... come on.. wake up. Either way though, your entitled to your opinion.
NanoCleric The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 83	Posted - 2013.11.06 10:15:00 - [5] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Since Closed Beta, I've received an opportunity to fill out three surveys via e-mail about the state of Dust 514 and CCP as a whole. It's entirely anonymous and I can express my opinions and views, in depth, without fear of recursive disregard of disapproval by my peers here on the forums. This is an excellent step in the right direction but I feel that they should send these surveys out a bit more frequently. I wholeheartedly agree, i've also had these surveys and filled them out, however... we have to take into consideration two other factors on this. (1) We are playing a PS3 game, and as i've previously stated.. i was alarmed to find out just how many people didn't own PC's, so checking their mail would be difficult. (2) Even for those who do have PC's, nowadays a lot of spam gets through, and yes we can use filters for those of us who know enough to set them up, but there are many who don't know a lot about computing and may just delete that mail amongst other spam if they've not checked their mailbox for a while. So although yes it's great we get them, and yes if we were contacted more frequently it would be greater still... though i reiterate.. how much more frequent would it be, and how many more players would it engage if it was done through a tab on the update screen in game. That's a solution there... Might not be the ideal way, it could be adapted for sure... But there's a way to get the required engagement. Also to ensure that those who are totally unaware of the CPM and all these issues become aware. Perhaps even add in an interface option to post a message/petition to a CPM mailbox 'ingame'. What i've been saying this whole time is that the CPM can't represent a whole community if many have not been contacted and don't even know who they are. If they can't represent the whole community then they don't represent the community. Which is why i maintain it's easier to do this kind of thing in-house.. meaning within CCP. I'm hoping i don't have to post again, i've tried to clarify what i've said plenty, if people just take the time to read the explanations.
NanoCleric The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 84	Posted - 2013.11.06 10:28:00 - [6] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: You know, CCP raRaRa (best dev ever btw) on Monday made it so that PS3 browsers had access to the Dust 514 forums. The only thing left to do there is increase awareness of it, the option is available to everyone now. I think we should advocate this ^_^ I wasn't aware of that, the last time we tried to do it, we ended up faffing around and it wouldn't work. That's good to know.. and again, these kind of things people don't suddenly become aware of, if there was a link in game to the forums (again if there is one.. i've not seen it) ... then that would aid feedback. Though, forums are not the nicest way of getting feedback, just look at this thread for an example... how much jibber jabber needs to be filtered to get anything useful. There has to be a cleaner platform via the ingame interface to make it 'easy' for people as i've previously said..
NanoCleric The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 87	Posted - 2013.11.06 10:53:00 - [7] - Quote it can be done through the ps3 in game via the interface, so yes it can be made even easier. I don't want to drone on and on... it's all in that sentence i just wrote. I'm a game programmer myself, i know it can be done. If i worked for CCP then i'd even tell them i'd code it up... Though don't get me wrong on that... i really don't want to work for CCP, very happy where i am.
NanoCleric The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 87	Posted - 2013.11.06 12:09:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: One thing I'll just point out is all the CPM members can be reached via their in game mail boxes. You can quite easily send a mail to all of them at once. Agreed that it's nice to have that ability and while 'we' may be aware of that, what about those who are not checking forums and those who don't know who the CPM are or aren't even aware we have a CPM? The forum and e-mails can't be your be-all and end-all of customer engagement if you want broad feedback. I've already explained how even with our small segment of 2k of your playerbase, we could only get 200-300 of those on these forums and our own forums. If you truely want feedback from the masses, then there are technical means and ways which guarentee you engage 'all' players, not just those who seek it out. Believe me, i trust that your doing a lot at the moment, but i've already explained a means by which you can engage with more players. I also know you will have competant coders who would also agree it can be done. If you want the CPM to represent the community, give them the tools they need to engage 'everyone' via in-game feedback. Either a CCP staff member or CPM could update the content of a splash interface on the update screen, either requesting feedback on something in the form of radial selection, checkboxes or a short typed response. Which can then all be collated and discussed. You can also provide a petitioning system in the game so people can send other written comments back under different subcategories. This is not a *****, this is not a whinge, this is not a troll, it's positive critisim on the ways and means you are currently using with proposed viable solutions which can be considered and adapted to increase performance, feedback rate and opinions over a broader spectrum. Because the truth is that the CPM don't represent us all, they don't represent me, or anyone else who hasn't engaged with them.. At the moment people only have the option to contact them if they are aware of them, i'm aware of them and i opt not to seek them out as i have other things to do, whereas if i had a screen asking me for my opinion on something when i log on, sure i'll spend a few moments to type in my opinion or select an option. Also despite being aware of them, i may have opted not to contact them, but neither have any of them reached out to me in any media i regularaly check. So just realize how many others have not engaged with them too. This is logical, technically possible, feasible for increasing consumer contact and credible for helping to steer the game the way players would love to see it go.
NanoCleric The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 95	Posted - 2013.11.12 20:00:00 - [9] - Quote Cough Post #140 Aeon Amadi wrote: While I'm not actively campaigning for CPM, it's no secret that I have expressed my intent to one day run for election, when such is available. Cough ... heads off to find some cough syrup...

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