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Cosgar
ParagonX
6683
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Posted - 2013.10.27 22:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
Damage mods force you to give up tank for that extra gank. Proficiency gives you extra gank without having to give anything up since it's passive. What's more OP? |
Cosgar
ParagonX
6690
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Posted - 2013.10.28 00:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Cosgar wrote:Damage mods force you to give up tank for that extra gank. Proficiency gives you extra gank without having to give anything up since it's passive. What's more OP? No they dont, not thanks to the Armor buffs and Logi slots,thats the main issue here. A Gal Logi can still pack 800+ EHP with 3 Cx Damage Mods.Whats more op? Prof + Cx dam mods stack. ''Also, Caldari assaults becoming obsolete? Really?''Compared to Cal Logi? Yeah.
Dude, seriously, you need to stop using logis as a straw man. It's turning into an unhealthy obsession. Everything is available to everyone and we all can use damage mods, no matter the suit. But you're ignoring a completely relevant issue that CCP stepped away from in Chromosome- passive skills. Haven't you noticed that the majority of our passives our tied to our equipment so that our gear becomes more powerful and not our toons? Proficiency is another one of those issues because it's always on and doesn't take up a slot. At least a suit, logi or otherwise has to give something up to equip a damage mod.
Again I'll ask, what's the bigger problem? Damage mods, or a passive skill that gives more DPS than a damage mod? |
Cosgar
ParagonX
6692
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 01:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Cosgar wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:Cosgar wrote:Damage mods force you to give up tank for that extra gank. Proficiency gives you extra gank without having to give anything up since it's passive. What's more OP? No they dont, not thanks to the Armor buffs and Logi slots,thats the main issue here. A Gal Logi can still pack 800+ EHP with 3 Cx Damage Mods.Whats more op? Prof + Cx dam mods stack. ''Also, Caldari assaults becoming obsolete? Really?''Compared to Cal Logi? Yeah. Dude, seriously, you need to stop using logis as a straw man. It's turning into an unhealthy obsession. Everything is available to everyone and we all can use damage mods, no matter the suit. But you're ignoring a completely relevant issue that CCP stepped away from in Chromosome- passive skills. Haven't you noticed that the majority of our passives our tied to our equipment so that our gear becomes more powerful and not our toons? Proficiency is another one of those issues because it's always on and doesn't take up a slot. At least a suit, logi or otherwise has to give something up to equip a damage mod. Again I'll ask, what's the bigger problem? Damage mods, or a passive skill that gives more DPS than a damage mod? I RUN logis. and i think the REASON people are abusing logis is beause they can stack damage mods and still have high HP values while assaults cant.
If this is fixed,then some balance between mid frames might be achieved. See? i think the reason people use logis is to abuse dam mods..And Again i'll answer: The bigger problem is the fact you can combine them for massive Damage bonus.
And I'm telling you that I think all that yellow is seeping into your brian! Let me spell it out for you better:
Dropsuit A: Assault GK.0
3 Complex Damage Mods, Duvolle AR (proficiency 5)
Dropsuit B: Logistics GK.0
3 Complex Damage Mods, Duvolle AR ( no proficiency)
EHP aside, who's going to have the higher DPS? The guy with triple damage mods and another 15% bonus damage, or the guy with stacked damage mods without the passive skill that's always on no matter what he puts on his dropsuit?
I see where you're coming from, but I think you're attacking the wrong issue and looking for another way to stick it to logistics along the way. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
6692
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 01:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:OMG cosgar we really have communication issues here.
Im not saying Logis are to BLAME,im saying stacking penalties on dam mods are to blame.
The Logi is just the best way to abuse it.
And yes, Proficiency is way powerful,but its also very SP expensive. On the other side, Cx Damage mods are cheap SP wise, ISK wise and make a big difference specially while combined with Proficiency skills...
I come from the fitting school of thought that if you have to put something on a suit, that means you give up the opportunity to fit something else. Damage mods, extenders, plates, equipment... even lolpassive scanning. This is why the logi argument usually falls flat because they have much less base stats compared to their assault counterparts that whatever they equip barely brings them back to par. Sometimes you can surpass it, but you still don't have a clear advantage that base stats give.
But back to the point. Damage mods are available to everyone since they're so low on the series of SP sinks skill tree. Putting levels into the skill only unlocks damage mods and makes them easier to fit. You still have to equip them onto a suit which means they take up something else to go in that high slot. Even though it may be more SP intensive, proficiency in its current state, throws off fitting balance because you're not giving up anything on your suit to have this advantage. In fact, it throws off the skill > SP balance this game is supposed to have. If a player with less SP in a gallente assault with stacked damage mods meets a player with the exact same fit but with more SP into max proficiency, the player with more SP has a clear advantage that he didn't have to give something else up for on his suit.
I don't know how else I can spell this out for you, but you're entitled to your own opinion as much as I am to mine. In fact I'm not here to argue but to give you a different perspective on the big picture. Think about it, remember when we had all those passive skills back in beta? Why do you think they bound the majority of them to their corresponding equipment?
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Cosgar
ParagonX
6693
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Posted - 2013.10.28 01:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Cosgar wrote:
And I'm telling you that I think all that yellow is seeping into your brian! Let me spell it out for you better:
Dropsuit A: Assault GK.0
3 Complex Damage Mods, Duvolle AR (proficiency 5)
Dropsuit B: Logistics GK.0
3 Complex Damage Mods, Duvolle AR ( no proficiency)
EHP aside, who's going to have the higher DPS? The guy with triple damage mods and another 15% bonus damage, or the guy with stacked damage mods without the passive skill that's always on no matter what he puts on his dropsuit?
I see where you're coming from, but I think you're attacking the wrong issue and looking for another way to stick it to logistics along the way.
OMG cosgar we really have communication issues here. Im not saying Logis are to BLAME,im saying stacking penalties on dam mods are to blame. The Logi is just the best way to abuse it. And yes, Proficiency is way powerful,but its also very SP expensive. On the other side, Cx Damage mods are cheap SP wise, ISK wise and make a big difference specially while combined with Proficiency skills... NOW: Dropsuit A: Assault GK.03 Complex Damage Mods, Duvolle AR (proficiency 5)Dropsuit B: Logistics GK.0 3 Complex Damage Mods, Duvolle AR (proficiency 5)BOTH WITH THE SAME FIREPOWER, who will have more HP....? And WHO do you think is the best option....? Be honest please...
And again with the logi vs assault debate. It depends on what either player fits really. Even if the logi is tanked better, he still only has one weapon, is going to be slower, have less stamina, is going to be more expensive, and if the assault gets the drop on him, he's at a disadvantage. Maybe the logi has triage hives and they're a bit more CPU intensive, one of those extra low slots might be used for a CPU enhancer since he's using a Duvolle as well. It all depends and player skill still dictactes the outcome. Even if the logi went for full tank, ignoring equipment, he's just a tankier assault without a sidarm. What if the assault is better at strafing and/or using cover? What if the assault has a SCP and damn good aim?
What you're doing is looking at the advantages a logi might have over an assault while totally discrediting the ones an assault may have over a logi. This is why every logi vs assault argument always falls flat no matter how many topics pop up. I see plenty of assaults carrying nanohives, injectors, and even reppers. You think I complain that they're doing my job? |
Cosgar
ParagonX
6693
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 01:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:
Exactly, exept the only useful thing BESIDES a damage mod in the HIGH SLOTS is a shield extender...which logis dont need to be able to tank+surivive fire-fights.
There by my whole argument.
You are changing this topic into passive skills, which considering the high cost of SP,they deserve to be useful
As you say its different opinion although i still think we are talking about similar but not the same issues here....
You say this isn't about logis but EVERY ONE OF YOUR POSTS HAS LOGI IN IT TO TRY TO SELL YOUR ARGUMENT. You've usually brought up valid topics which when I agree with you when I feel you're right and I disagree with when you're wrong. But this... this is getting a bit out of hand. This isn't about damage mods, it's another "I hate logi" topic and damage mods are along for a ride. Logis aren't the only suits that can equip damage mods. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
6693
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 01:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Cosgar wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:
Exactly, exept the only useful thing BESIDES a damage mod in the HIGH SLOTS is a shield extender...which logis dont need to be able to tank+surivive fire-fights.
There by my whole argument.
You are changing this topic into passive skills, which considering the high cost of SP,they deserve to be useful
As you say its different opinion although i still think we are talking about similar but not the same issues here....
You say this isn't about logis but EVERY ONE OF YOUR POSTS HAS LOGI IN IT TO TRY TO SELL YOUR ARGUMENT. You've usually brought up valid topics which when I agree with you when I feel you're right and I disagree with when you're wrong. But this... this is getting a bit out of hand. This isn't about damage mods, it's another "I hate logi" topic and damage mods are along for a ride. Logis aren't the only suits that can equip damage mods. This is not an i hate logi thread. Again , i Use Amarr logi as main suit.
Im just trying to find and pinpoint the REAL reason logis are being abused so much.
In any case, im doing logis a favor.
And totally ****ing over:
-New players
-Gallente assaults
-Amarr asaults
-Anyone using underpowered weapons
-Anyone that prefers gank fittings
-Shield tanked pilots
-Anyone that uses large missile turrets (they need all the help they can get) |
Cosgar
ParagonX
6696
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 02:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:@ Disturbingly Bored i was not being sarcastic...i was truly surprised by the results.
I guess i have proven myself wrong then . Damage mods are not the reason everybody is abusing logis.
Me myself accept my mistake and will delete thread. Thanks everyone for the arguments.It was,enlightning.
/end thread. +1 good sir for hashing it all out with logic. Your average person on this forum would plug his fingers in his ears and go on arguing anyway. 
Takes a big man to put up a fight and a bigger man to admit he might be wrong. Relevant discussion that fits into the game's other issues like the abysmally short TTK and weapon imbalance. I think you should have left the OP up though. Some good info to use for other debates. |
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