The problems you speak of mostly refer to the older maps - the research facility is much better for this stuff and I look forward to seeing more like it with the production facility coming in the next few months. The older maps are definitely lacking but it's getting better for sure.

Even if i agree with you ,that Research Facility has that ''A'' objective that can be effectivley defended, BUT B {talking about the 4 obj version} is very open and has around 5 entry points making it almost impossible to defend with less than 6 team members.
And if you are being proto/squad stomped or if you are a newberry you WILL loose A ,and will never get it back. And every time you get B, it will be shortly taken back. I think Both B and A need to be :
1- Further away
2- Basically equally defendable.

Plus you talk as if OLDERMAPS are not being played still XD

Plus you talk as if OLDERMAPS are not being played still XD[/b]

The older maps are getting phased out.

Also, the letter whichever objective you're referring to changes.
Is B the one on the second floor, with the two stairways up and a couple of walkways across to it?
It's not particularly easily defensible, but honestly it's my favourite part of the map to fight over. What I find is more of a problem is at A there are only a couple of routes in - if you're spawning there it's quite easy to be spawncamped, especially with grenades.

Lol of course, of course. If they weren't we'd have nothing to play on. I'm just saying it's clearly something that is improving. Expect way more of what you ask for in the new sockets coming...

For example, those medium sockets with the bunker style building with 2 entrances and a curving wall around the CRU - those are pretty defensible. The large research socket with the objective underground is very very defensible. Yes, others are still pretty open but if everything was easily defended, attacking would become ridiculously hard and we'd have precisely the opposite situation to that which you currently complain about.

I belive part of the imbalance that has Dust 514 in its current situation is because of faulty MAP DESIGN.

What do i even mean with this?
well while playing BF3 yesterday i realized even if i was with randoms we could hold an objective because here were different strategic points, with defendable chokepoints.
Lest see some images from Operation Metro Map in BF3:
CHOKEPOINT
CHOKEPOINT

CHOKEPOINT

Multiple location Chokepoint

Now this kind of maps have defendable areas that can be effectivley protected (Like double entrance buildings with multiple windows to effectivley defend an area without having to BE in that area).So your team can defend the said objective from a height advantage without having to be all cluttered near said objective , BUT the enemy does have a chance to take it while using cover fire OR taking the defensive position.

As it is in DUST most infantry battles go like this=
Im out in the open

SH*T im out in the open again!

what is this COVER you speak of?

LOL whats a Choke point?


So not only Blueberries are thrown out into the wolves but they are thrown out to VERY open maps, with little to no cover.
Say:
GÇó Line Harvest: There REALLY is not way to cover an objective effectivley.There are no choke points, the enemy can come in from ANY side in D and C and all it takes is for the enemy to assemble and outnumber the defensive units and voila, 100% sucess 100% of the time. B can be Snipe-Covered pretty effectivley but all it takes is 2-3 guys taking it at the same time and voila, you lost B. Also ,can come from any direction.And same with A.

There is no STRATEGIC positioning! sure you can place yourself in that TABLE structure in the middle of the map, only to get sniped. Or on top of D and C, but you CANT effectivley cover the objectives from up there,an again you might be sniped.
You can go snipe Camp on top of the 4 towers,yeah but you arent really doing anything but stat padding...and so on.

So its no wonder in a map like this blue dots USUALLY get redlined.AFTER the enemy reinforced say, C & D, the blue dots DO NOT have an entry way back into the map,without having to face the wrath of Thales snipers, Roof Forgegunners, LR users in the hills , tanks protected by the roofs of C & etc...
You got a sucesful sneak? Yeah,....no...You have been scanned. Have fun with 8 dudes following you around.with Proto gear

This maps provide NO safe route BACK into the map. They dont provide MULTIPLE routes back into the fight. Usually only 1-2 that after a sucesful redline become heavily defended.They provide no effective way to turn the tables around, and EVEN if a whole team is at one of the objectives, there is no way to effectivley hold it since the enemy will keep coming, from ALL directions...



CCP needs to adress these issues with the maps, not only matchmaking is broken to hell BUT on top of that the maps are (where infantry is meant to fight) extremly open. You are prone to Dropship attacks, orbital strikes are 100% effective on ALMOST every area of a map; Usually being able to cover with OBs up to 3+ objectives,Enemy entry points are at a massive 3+ per objective, with the lack of defendable choke points being common,etc...

LEtts think of that ONE map with 3 objectives, ANOTHER redline favourite. WHY is it common for this map to end in redline?
Well=
GÖª All objectives are acessible from ALL sides.
GÖª 99% of the time you will be in a snipers sight
GÖª AV is very effective in this map making use of Vehicles for transport or for a counter offensive completley ridiculous idea.
GÖª Once the enemy is redlined they have literally 3 options: 1- take the longest route to the most far away obj, pray you dont get sniped in the way or scanned. 2- Go straight through. LOL 3- Use the mountain area behind C. So you either suicide straight up. Go to C, where there will b at least 3-4 dudes protecting it, and if now while you are taking it they will run from B to C in 10 seconds, Or go take the long route and get sniped to death.

Not to mention maps are usually broken in favor of Vehicles (line Harvest ) or AV infantry (the 3 obj one, manus peak? )


Just saying this maps are NOT newberrie friendly...

Thats the very essence of an unfair comparison. metro is one of the greatest infantry maps that i've ever played on, a match between 2 competent teams turns into one very big, very fun firefight. i would have loved to play that thing on pc its a blast even with the limited numbers on console.

There's infantry maps and then there's vehicle maps. Thanks to constant whining, vehicles have been all but neglected and those vehicle oriented maps are nothing but a joke. You made your own bed if you ever complained about HAV, dropships, and would rather use the front bumper of an LAV over its turret.

I would really have to disagree with this...

Dust has large maps and the thing is even with such large maps there are always different places to fight on and have good fire fights that can happen for 2-5minutes before and objective is taken. I do not want to be fighting at an objective for 10minutes. I can fight on the bridge take A run over and start rushing the C objective and it will take me and my team a while to take it.

Cosgar touched on it. The maps in uprising were an attempt to balance vehicles with infantry among other things. Or to at least help provide infantry a place to fight while not getting wailed on by HAVs. I think the maps are fairly balanced in this regard, outside of some redline issues with sniping.

Interesting read.

Let me first start off by saying I despise choke points. You hate grenade spam? Avoid the chokepoint. It's nothing more than a bowling alley. And i will nade you to hell if I can. I often try to flank choke points because mercs are so engaged in battle that they don't even pay attention to their surroundings. I don't ever like choke points. It's easy kills for the opposing reds or for the well tuned killer.

Second, about cover. The pictures shows significant locations for cover. The table top map-no one should be on that road unless you're scurrying between the two buildings by Charlie and Delta. But as far as underneath the table top? I'm sticking to the foundations, installation for a short brief period, the trailer and using the ladder as a smoke screen. Same thing as by alpha. Alpha has short columns enclosed around it-use it. You knew there are more than five ways to get to you in that location. The perfect squad would use sub teams within the squad. Roll with 6 while three and three handles engagements as the time comes.

Also with the table top, its key to get the L shape. Meaning, if you're spawning south, you want B, C, D. The focal point is always alpha. It's a problem to defend because of the many holes, flanking positions, higher grounds and CRU. Once you capture D, you need to watch the redline for upcoming mercs with your 3 man sub team while the other team watches out for Alpha. Reaction time is great for Baker. Alpha is a nuisance.

And did I say I hate chokepoints? Go around the chokepoints. Flank positions. I'm always looking for ways to flank the enemy. I hate playing cowboys and indians, it doesn't make sense when the glory of coming around their flanks and kill one at a time while the whole team doesn't have a clue cannot be replicated by any other tactic. Use the Shaka Zulu infamous bullhorn tactic.

I love the tactical...

and you'll notice that most of those maps are infantry centrc, with vehicles having either little or no effect on the match. vehicle centric maps such as operation firestorm or caspian border involve lots of wide open spaces with mixed to light cover, rather reminiscent of certain dust maps. dust maps could have been executed better agreed but overall old style dust maps have similarities with battlefield vehicle centric ones.

Not trying to bring in any AV/Vehicle drama. My point is that just about every map works better at different things. Those wide open maps were primarily designed for vehicles. Tanks, Dropships ferrying troops, and LAV convoys running light suppression. But designed purpose and practical use has gone askew since the primary focus went to infantry combat.

Think about it: When's the last time you've ever seen someone use an LAV other than getting from point A to point B. Hell, how many players are actually skilled into LAVs outside of LLAVs back when murder taxis were a thing? Not trying to redirect the focus of your topic, but when you talk about map design, let's not ignore an entire side of the community.