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Cass Caul Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 173	Posted - 2013.10.26 02:29:00 - [1] - Quote One of the most ridiculous aspects of this game, and the most unrealistic aspect of the game, is circle-strafing or "dancing." Today, in a Dragonfly Assault Suit (2 basic shield extenders, toxin ar, toxin smg, locus grenade, basic armor repairer, basic armor plate) I just dominated someone in a Sentinel A-1 with the MH82-HMG. I stood straight in front of him 5m away. never jumped or sprinted, I just moved back from right to left and kept firing on him. . . He started firing first, yet I did over 700HP worth of damage before he could break my shields. There needs to be some hindrance from people just moving back and forth like what I did. It messes with hit-detection having fewer shot hit than should and is just so very twitch-based.
Cosgar ParagonX 6521	Posted - 2013.10.26 02:40:00 - [2] - Quote Strafing is an important aspect to gunplay in a tracking FPS. You strafe to throw off your opponent's aim so they have to track you- that's the point. It's already been dumbed down by nerfing lateral movement since Replication and the stupid wepping effect when you get hit. If they ruin it anymore, this game might as well be turn based. This is why people complain about suits with more slots and why everyone is buffer tanking. Core mechanics need to stay important in this game and what you're suggesting ruins that.
Cass Caul Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 174	Posted - 2013.10.26 02:55:00 - [3] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Core mechanics need to stay important ... what you're suggesting ruins that. wut? How is dealing proper damage something that ruins the game? You're right. How dare I suggest something to incorporate realism than looking to play a game based off exploits.
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 341	Posted - 2013.10.26 04:14:00 - [4] - Quote OP. Are you using a kb / mouse? I am betting you are because strafing left to right in a quick fashion with a controller is a bit more difficult. The times i have done it with a controller it didnt seem to do anything. But i see many people strafing left to right very fast i can only imagine its something people with a kb can do but controllers struggle much more doing.
Talos Vagheitan King Slayers 116	Posted - 2013.10.26 04:26:00 - [5] - Quote Strafing back and forth in close range gunfights really may not be the most realistic thing, but it's pretty much a staple move for skilled players in any FPS game.
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 341	Posted - 2013.10.26 04:33:00 - [6] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: Strafing back and forth in close range gunfights really may not be the most realistic thing, but it's pretty much a staple move for skilled players in any FPS game. yes along with bunny hopping which is totally unrealistic.
Cass Caul Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 175	Posted - 2013.10.26 04:42:00 - [7] - Quote Thurak1 wrote: OP. Are you using a kb / mouse? I am betting you are because strafing left to right in a quick fashion with a controller is a bit more difficult. The times i have done it with a controller it didnt seem to do anything. But i see many people strafing left to right very fast i can only imagine its something people with a kb can do but controllers struggle much more doing. Nope, I use controller. I'm just used to going up against the DDR king, Kalante Schiffer, who also uses a controller. That wasn't an isolated incident by the way. I've gotten pretty good at dancing my way though an HMG. lol
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 342	Posted - 2013.10.26 05:34:00 - [8] - Quote I used to play a heavy often myself. I stopped a while ago the trade off's are not really balanced trade off's (to me anyway) with how much is sacrificed in mobility and reloading i felt more like a target than a force to be reckoned with. The HMG itself i think is a big part of the problem when shooting at anyone even fairly close it seems like the bullets just go everywhere unless the target is standing perfectly still. I now primarily use an assault suit and scrambler and i am doing significantly better and after being used to the movement of a heavy it feels like i am just zipping around the maps.
REMNANCY 1 Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 19	Posted - 2013.10.26 06:41:00 - [9] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Strafing is an important aspect to gunplay in a tracking FPS. You strafe to throw off your opponent's aim so they have to track you- that's the point. It's already been dumbed down by nerfing lateral movement since Replication and the stupid wepping effect when you get hit. If they ruin it anymore, this game might as well be turn based. This is why people complain about suits with more slots and why everyone is buffer tanking. Core mechanics need to stay important in this game and what you're suggesting ruins that. 1st. There is no such thing as a "strafe and track shooter" since the end of the 90's. 2nd.Dust 514 is supposed to be a tactical shooter as evidenced by a variety of weapons,vehicles,and equipment. 3rd. Obviously since CCP keeps repeatedly nerfing strafe speed they agree with me. 4th.Strafing is a design oversight by CCP's blundering preventing things like firing accuracy from being affected by movement and the oversight that the kin cat mods enhance regular movement
REMNANCY 1 Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 19	Posted - 2013.10.26 06:52:00 - [10] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: Strafing back and forth in close range gunfights really may not be the most realistic thing, but it's pretty much a staple move for skilled players in any FPS game. In what dream world is this because I have played every major PS3 shooter and several minor ones for instance COD MW2 COD BLOPS 2 MAG BF3 beta and game BF4 beta (will be getting) Uncharted 3 MP Warhammer 40k space marine MP Warhawk Starhawk Metal Gear Online *Red Dead Redemption MP and Dust is the only game where this particular brand of scrub nonsense is sold on the PS3 so you wish to regale me on where this "well established staple" has been hiding?

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6703	Posted - 2013.10.26 07:39:00 - [11] - Quote "Waaaaah, unrealistic", stop using realism as arguments. Like realism is somehow a inherently good, or unrealism is somehow inherently bad. Having to maintain aim for a long time while simultaneously moving against a moving target requires skill, and makes it fun. So you managed to do well against one bad heavy at close range by strafing, I don't see how that means something needs to be done.
Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance 344	Posted - 2013.10.26 07:55:00 - [12] - Quote REMNANCY 1 wrote: Talos Vagheitan wrote: Strafing back and forth in close range gunfights really may not be the most realistic thing, but it's pretty much a staple move for skilled players in any FPS game. In what dream world is this because I have played every major PS3 shooter and several minor ones for instance COD MW2 COD BLOPS 2 MAG BF3 beta and game BF4 beta (will be getting) Uncharted 3 MP Warhammer 40k space marine MP Warhawk Starhawk Metal Gear Online *Red Dead Redemption MP and Dust is the only game where this particular brand of scrub nonsense is sold on the PS3 so you wish to regale me on where this "well established staple" has been hiding? I agree, in fact most shooters now use a cover mechanic over the strafe lag mechanic due to realism and due to the increased tactical thinking it requires (strafe lag defense is a twitch/energetic shooter mechanic). Dust currently operates under a limited strafe lag mechanic. You can also add Kill zone series to your list as well. I agree with throwing up an inertia system
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 534	Posted - 2013.10.26 09:25:00 - [13] - Quote They already added an inertia system during one of the beta builds. The inertia could be turned up a little more, it is set so low it is almost unnoticable. With the suits and modifications to the cloned soldiers bodies, we should be able to move in ways that would not be possible for normal people. But not ignore physics completly. Power armour could make bunny hopping a valid tactic someday, I wouldn't bet on it though.
Patrick57 GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 901	Posted - 2013.10.26 13:09:00 - [14] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Cosgar wrote: Core mechanics need to stay important ... what you're suggesting ruins that. wut? How is dealing proper damage something that ruins the game? You're right. How dare I suggest something to incorporate realism than looking to play a game based off exploits. Since when is using an in-game mechanic an exploit? Why don't you try not strafing and see how that would break the game.
Cass Caul Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 176	Posted - 2013.10.26 17:01:00 - [15] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: Cass Caul wrote: Cosgar wrote: Core mechanics need to stay important ... what you're suggesting ruins that. wut? How is dealing proper damage something that ruins the game? You're right. How dare I suggest something to incorporate realism than looking to play a game based off exploits. Since when is using an in-game mechanic an exploit? Why don't you try not strafing and see how that would break the game. Because it messes with hit-detection. It was not just a single heavy. I'm getting better at it with each attempt. When you strafe in that manner, you are more likely to blue-shield the hit. The animation for taking damage is there, but none is actually taken. Go talk to people running shotguns regularly about it.
REMNANCY 1 Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 22	Posted - 2013.10.26 18:28:00 - [16] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: Cass Caul wrote: Cosgar wrote: Core mechanics need to stay important ... what you're suggesting ruins that. wut? How is dealing proper damage something that ruins the game? You're right. How dare I suggest something to incorporate realism than looking to play a game based off exploits. Since when is using an in-game mechanic an exploit? Why don't you try not strafing and see how that would break the game. But is it intentional? That is the point, don't assume it is supposed to be here because it's here "strafing" is a design oversight a systemic break if you will an occurrence in which the mechanics interact in ways that they where not intended to and since CCP keeps trying to be rid of it I would say the intent to have it is a resounding no. Keep in mind Dust is massively complex so these things happen they just have to kill these exploits before the sense of entitlement festers
REMNANCY 1 Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 22	Posted - 2013.10.26 18:31:00 - [17] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: Cass Caul wrote: [quote=Cosgar] Core mechanics need to stay important ... what you're suggesting ruins that. wut? How is dealing proper damage something that ruins the game? You're right. How dare I suggest something to incorporate realism than looking to play a game based off exploits. Since when is using an in-game mechanic an exploit? Keep in mind that in COD for example quick-scoping is a "mechanic" but none but the most self delusional believe it to be anything more than exploitation
Cosgar ParagonX 6627	Posted - 2013.10.26 23:44:00 - [18] - Quote REMNANCY 1 wrote: Patrick57 wrote: Cass Caul wrote: [quote=Cosgar] Core mechanics need to stay important ... what you're suggesting ruins that. wut? How is dealing proper damage something that ruins the game? You're right. How dare I suggest something to incorporate realism than looking to play a game based off exploits. Since when is using an in-game mechanic an exploit? Keep in mind that in COD for example quick-scoping is a "mechanic" but none but the most self delusional believe it to be anything more than exploitation Quick scoping isn't a mechanic, it's an exploit that was a carry over from the game engine CoD originates from. The only reason why it remains is that most maps in the series don't accommodate more traditional sniping. There's nothing tactical about Dust 514, there's tactics but the two aren't the same. You have to look for Tom Clancy titles like Rainbow Six and Red Orchestra to find tactical gameplay. Strafing has been a mechanic in FPS since their inception- Unreal, Quake, Duke Nuken, Powerslave, even all the way back to the original Doom. Hell, you can even find it in the Halo series- which for some reason has a higher TTK than this game where it's supposed to take months to build your character up. The reason why you're opposed to strafing is because you're spoiled by the casual drivel that CoD has shoveled you. There's more to aiming and gunplay than unloading a weapon at someone's general direction first and collecting that +50 Kill. You're afraid that your lack of steady aim is going to get exposed by someone that has better footwork or someone that can sprint strife up the barrel of your gun and unload a shotgun in your jaw- it terrifies you.
Talos Vagheitan King Slayers 119	Posted - 2013.10.27 00:37:00 - [19] - Quote REMNANCY 1 wrote: Talos Vagheitan wrote: Strafing back and forth in close range gunfights really may not be the most realistic thing, but it's pretty much a staple move for skilled players in any FPS game. In what dream world is this because I have played every major PS3 shooter and several minor ones for instance COD MW2 COD BLOPS 2 MAG BF3 beta and game BF4 beta (will be getting) Uncharted 3 MP Warhammer 40k space marine MP Warhawk Starhawk Metal Gear Online *Red Dead Redemption MP and Dust is the only game where this particular brand of scrub nonsense is sold on the PS3 so you wish to regale me on where this "well established staple" has been hiding? It normaly hides at the top of the leader boards... might explain why you haven't seen it ;)
Cosgar ParagonX 6636	Posted - 2013.10.27 01:00:00 - [20] - Quote It's really sad how many people stand still while shooting or don't understand the concept of counter strafing.

Cosgar ParagonX 6649	Posted - 2013.10.27 05:23:00 - [21] - Quote REMNANCY 1 wrote: Talos Vagheitan wrote: Strafing back and forth in close range gunfights really may not be the most realistic thing, but it's pretty much a staple move for skilled players in any FPS game. In what dream world is this because I have played every major PS3 shooter and several minor ones for instance COD MW2 COD BLOPS 2 MAG BF3 beta and game BF4 beta (will be getting) Uncharted 3 MP Warhammer 40k space marine MP Warhawk Starhawk Metal Gear Online *Red Dead Redemption MP and Dust is the only game where this particular brand of scrub nonsense is sold on the PS3 so you wish to regale me on where this "well established staple" has been hiding? Just wanted to point out that A) You've listed nothing but modern FPS, and B) The majority of them fall under the military FPS sub genre. Dust 514 is not a military FPS no matter how much you want it to be. We don't have one weapon with multiple skins that all do the same thing, we don't have kill streaks and prestige and we don't die in 3 shots. The biggest and only argument against strafing I've ever seen on here is "Wahhhh! I can't track my target! Or Bawwwww! This looks silly and it's not realistic. It's a goddamned video game, we're playing as cloned soldiers with consciousness transferring sleeper technology using cybernetically enhanced space suits and rifles that shoot plasma- in case you haven't noticed, realism was the last thing on CCP's mind. But you're free to do what you want. Go ahead and keep shooting while standing still while someone dances around you and peppers you with an SMG. Maybe when you get tired of it, you'll work on your footwork.
REMNANCY 1 Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2013.10.27 08:12:00 - [22] - Quote First off pal I kill cheating scrubs like you all the time because when you where practicing ways to play on easy mode and subvert the usage of skilled methods I was working on my aim,positioning and other such actual methodologies. I mean say what you will about "COD drivel" and their gameplay based on a singular learned behavior I.E. twitching but your effectively advocating for a game just like it where victory is dependant not on practiced ability but upon the seamless execution of a single technique oh and by the way in the event that you believe that Dust isn't tactical I point you toward the idea of custom loadouts and old CCP videos where David Reid intentionally likens this game to "Battlefield"
Cosgar ParagonX 6649	Posted - 2013.10.27 08:33:00 - [23] - Quote REMNANCY 1 wrote: First off pal I kill cheating scrubs like you all the time because when you where practicing ways to play on easy mode and subvert the usage of skilled methods I was working on my aim,positioning and other such actual methodologies. I mean say what you will about "COD drivel" and their gameplay based on a singular learned behavior I.E. twitching but your effectively advocating for a game just like it where victory is dependant not on practiced ability but upon the seamless execution of a single technique oh and by the way in the event that you believe that Dust isn't tactical I point you toward the idea of custom loadouts and old CCP videos where David Reid intentionally likens this game to "Battlefield" Strafing = cheating now? I think we're done here.
REMNANCY 1 Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2013.10.27 08:50:00 - [24] - Quote You do know that the phrase "cheating" and "exploit" are often used interchangeably right? btw it's always been cheating but I guess for the pathological liars among us if you call it something else it is perfectly acceptable suppose say the terms "moron" and "mentally challenged" but then again you hear those all the time don't you so I digress
Cosgar ParagonX 6649	Posted - 2013.10.27 09:18:00 - [25] - Quote REMNANCY 1 wrote: You do know that the phrase "cheating" and "exploit" are often used interchangeably right? btw it's always been cheating but I guess for the pathological liars among us if you call it something else it is perfectly acceptable suppose say the terms "moron" and "mentally challenged" but then again you hear those all the time don't you so I digress And here come the petty insults... You obviously have your own style of play while others have theirs. But calling a basic skill that's available to everyone cheating or an exploit is the kind of mental gymnastics that hinders a person from improving. You're free to stand there like you're rooted to the ground praying and spraying, but when a scout or Minmatar assault/logi manages to outmaneuver you, who's at fault?
abarkrishna The Elysian Knights 24	Posted - 2013.10.27 12:03:00 - [26] - Quote Just so you all know its not the strafe speed that is the issue with hit detection. The real root of the issue is their actual hit detection mechanic. It is registered server side rather than client side, which is opposite of most FPS games. Because it is registered server side there is a lag between when you see the animations and when the damage actually gets dealt. The higher the latency the longer it takes to register the damage. This also explains why it often feels like you are getting shot through walls when you are ducking behind cover in a fire fight. And i am sure you will agree with me but the latency in this game has been getting worse ever since uprising first came out. In fact its extremely bad right now. Add in the extreme rendering issue and you have huge problems.
Smooth Assassin Stardust incorporation 267	Posted - 2013.10.27 13:49:00 - [27] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: One of the most ridiculous aspects of this game, and the most unrealistic aspect of the game, is circle-strafing or "dancing." Today, in a Dragonfly Assault Suit (2 basic shield extenders, toxin ar, toxin smg, locus grenade, basic armor repairer, basic armor plate) I just dominated someone in a Sentinel A-1 with the MH82-HMG. I stood straight in front of him 5m away. never jumped or sprinted, I just moved back from right to left and kept firing on him. . . He started firing first, yet I did over 700HP worth of damage before he could break my shields. There needs to be some hindrance from people just moving back and forth like what I did. It messes with hit-detection having fewer shot hit than should and is just so very twitch-based. Same with nova knives, i tried to hit a guy with both attacks while back-pedaling but apparently if you back-pedal it saves you from getting killed by nova knives and colourful blue sparks.
Patrick57 GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 923	Posted - 2013.10.27 14:24:00 - [28] - Quote REMNANCY 1 wrote: First off pal I kill cheating scrubs like you all the time because when you where practicing ways to play on easy mode and subvert the usage of skilled methods I was working on my aim,positioning and other such actual methodologies. I mean say what you will about "COD drivel" and their gameplay based on a singular learned behavior I.E. twitching but your effectively advocating for a game just like it where victory is dependant not on practiced ability but upon the seamless execution of a single technique oh and by the way in the event that you believe that Dust isn't tactical I point you toward the idea of custom loadouts and old CCP videos where David Reid intentionally likens this game to "Battlefield" So, strafing while aiming and shooting is "cheating" but just sitting there and aiming is skill? Please do explain.
Cass Caul Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 185	Posted - 2013.10.27 17:36:00 - [29] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: REMNANCY 1 wrote: First off pal I kill cheating scrubs like you all the time because when you where practicing ways to play on easy mode and subvert the usage of skilled methods I was working on my aim,positioning and other such actual methodologies. I mean say what you will about "COD drivel" and their gameplay based on a singular learned behavior I.E. twitching but your effectively advocating for a game just like it where victory is dependant not on practiced ability but upon the seamless execution of a single technique oh and by the way in the event that you believe that Dust isn't tactical I point you toward the idea of custom loadouts and old CCP videos where David Reid intentionally likens this game to "Battlefield" So, strafing while aiming and shooting is "cheating" but just sitting there and aiming is skill? Please do explain. lol, way to take the whole thing out of context. Strafing in and of itself is just moving laterally. The problem is circle strafing and lateral back-and-forth repetitively. Please, continue to ignore the original post, I said how I can dance my way though a storm of bullets. IT is clearly exploiting the hit-detection mechanics of this game, so yes it is cheating.
Cass Caul Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 185	Posted - 2013.10.27 17:51:00 - [30] - Quote abarkrishna wrote: Just so you all know its not the strafe speed that is the issue with hit detection. The real root of the issue is their actual hit detection mechanic. It is registered server side rather than client side, which is opposite of most FPS games. Because it is registered server side there is a lag between when you see the animations and when the damage actually gets dealt. The higher the latency the longer it takes to register the damage. This also explains why it often feels like you are getting shot through walls when you are ducking behind cover in a fire fight. And i am sure you will agree with me but the latency in this game has been getting worse ever since uprising first came out. In fact its extremely bad right now. Add in the extreme rendering issue and you have huge problems. lag is pretty bad, but here's the thing: when a suit's movement was causing hit detection errors before they slowed it down to let everything hit. Back in chromosome and before, you could see people going around with Dragonfly Scout suits and Duvolle ARs. They bunny-hopped their way through bullets, because in DUST whenever you jump your legs are no longer part of your hit-box. The Duvolle AR did just as much damage as it does now, only back then 500 eHP was a number reserved for Heavies and the most tanked prototype logistics. To remedy this problem they have since nerfed Scout's base sprint speed from 10m/s to 7.66 (Gallente) and 7.8 (Minmatar), and added a 1-second delay for stamina regeneration. When hit-detection was a problem in the past, they slowed the game down. Why not do it again? It isn't about removing 8-directional movement, but slowing down changing direction.



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