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Cosgar ParagonX 6501	Posted - 2013.10.26 01:13:00 - [1] - Quote And here we go with another one. You can check my post history in better topics with better arguments and even better counter arguments on why logi > assault isn't true, but I'll break it down like this: If you fit a logistics suit to be fully tanked at the cost of equipment, it's gimped down to a slightly tankier, more expensive assault suit that doesn't have a sidearm. Sure, it might win a couple of 1v1 engagements, but Dust is a team based game, that's why we have squads and that's why we have heavy suits- to enforce the teamwork dynamic. This logistics vs assault drama has long been resolved when the CaLogi was nerfed. Back then, the CaLogi could have the highest buffer through its racial bonus, while still having an insane fitting flexibility thanks to its larger CPU/PG pool. Shield vs armor imbalance at the time also made the CaLogi more dominant as well over the other logistics suits- in fact, the Amarr actually needed a buff at the time. The killer bees died with the CaLogi, but people still complain because they want to blame something for their own shortcomings because through mental gymnastics, they believe that they can do no wrong. I die to assaults all the time, but I don't cry about it on the forums because the suit doesn't make the man. Are the assault's bonuses underwhelming? Depends on who you ask. Is there room for improvement through better assault bonuses? Ask any Gallente or Amarr assault if they shield tank. Scouts and heavies? Do I really need to ask? Is nerfing logistics the answer? Hell no! All it's going to do is screw over another niche role and if you look around, we have enough of that. I don't know what the other suits need, because frankly, I don't use them and it would be better for those users to look for ways to improve them instead of complaining about a role they don't play because they rather drag it down to their standards. This kind of nerf everything logic is like if I posted a topic to nerf all the other weapons because the plasma cannon sucks.
Cosgar ParagonX 6502	Posted - 2013.10.26 01:22:00 - [2] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Drapedup Drippedout wrote: Fizzer94 wrote: You shouldn't be so quick to disregard sidearms. I take it you are one of those guys that fits a Prototype Light Weapon and a Militia SMG... Your loss. I run Duvolle with Ishukone SMG prof 4. My point is Logi's cry foul they don't have one. As an FLF I do use mine, but rarely in the whole scheme of things. Logis aren't FLF's so why are they bitching about not having something that is rarely used. Well I am a logi and to avoid the inevitable nerf I propose we get sidearm only but amarr can carry two, the only other alternative I'd be happy with is one high or low slot resduction for Logis. Any other ideas? Anyone got a reasonable small nerrf to avoid a big one please someone must have something, yes I am producing forum tears lap them up lol. You're really not helping with that. You give QQ kittens an inch, they'll take a mile. They'll want sidearms nerfed next, then make reppers the logis primary weapon, and if that's enough, our walking animation will be us crawling backwards with our lubed yellow asses sticking up in the air. I like to use SMGs and pistols on some of my proto equipment fittings to free up some CPU/PG, but that doesn't mean I should have to 24/7, especially since the best defense/support weapon in the game is a light weapon.
Cosgar ParagonX 6502	Posted - 2013.10.26 01:29:00 - [3] - Quote Drapedup Drippedout wrote: Cosgar wrote: And here we go with another one. You can check my post history in better topics with better arguments and even better counter arguments on why logi > assault isn't true, but I'll break it down like this: If you fit a logistics suit to be fully tanked at the cost of equipment, it's gimped down to a slightly tankier, more expensive assault suit that doesn't have a sidearm. Sure, it might win a couple of 1v1 engagements, but Dust is a team based game, that's why we have squads and that's why we have heavy suits- to enforce the teamwork dynamic. This logistics vs assault drama has long been resolved when the CaLogi was nerfed. Back then, the CaLogi could have the highest buffer through its racial bonus, while still having an insane fitting flexibility thanks to its larger CPU/PG pool. Shield vs armor imbalance at the time also made the CaLogi more dominant as well over the other logistics suits- in fact, the Amarr actually needed a buff at the time. The killer bees died with the CaLogi, but people still complain because they want to blame something for their own shortcomings because through mental gymnastics, they believe that they can do no wrong. I die to assaults all the time, but I don't cry about it on the forums because the suit doesn't make the man. Are the assault's bonuses underwhelming? Depends on who you ask. Is there room for improvement through better assault bonuses? Ask any Gallente or Amarr assault if they shield tank. Scouts and heavies? Do I really need to ask? Is nerfing logistics the answer? Hell no! All it's going to do is screw over another niche role and if you look around, we have enough of that. I don't know what the other suits need, because frankly, I don't use them and it would be better for those users to look for ways to improve them instead of complaining about a role they don't play because they rather drag it down to their standards. This kind of nerf everything logic is like if I posted a topic to nerf all the other weapons because the plasma cannon sucks. I've read your posts, and yes they are well thought out. Please explain to me how a Minmatar Assault suit with 5 highs and 2 lows is more adept at its role than the callogi, gallogi, or minlogi? All of those have more cpu/pg and more slots with neglible difference in base HP. Say you run 3 complex shield ext., a dmg mod, and a recharger (or 4th extender) you are forced to run a cpu upgrade, and you have 1 more low slot. Do you run armor for hp? kin cat to capitalize on your speed? Not many options man. That's my beef, as min assault I can shield tank only. And while shield tanking, I can't run dmg mods which cripples my 'slaying' ability, thus crippling my WP output on a suit designed to kill for WP. Assault's base stats dictate what the suit does and the slots to give you the tool you need to customize it within that play style. Logistics suits base stats and sidearm are traded for extra slots to shape their role. In the end, the assaults have it easier because their role is spelled out, logistics have to pay to win. My equipment alone could probably match the price of an assault suit.
Cosgar ParagonX 6502	Posted - 2013.10.26 01:30:00 - [4] - Quote Drapedup Drippedout wrote: Ok so logibros, how would you feel if assaults had an extra equip slot? Why not a damage mod fitting reduction?
Cosgar ParagonX 6510	Posted - 2013.10.26 02:01:00 - [5] - Quote Drapedup Drippedout wrote: Cosgar wrote: Drapedup Drippedout wrote: Ok so logibros, how would you feel if assaults had an extra equip slot? Why not a damage mod fitting reduction? Because dmg mods still eat up highs, used for shield ext. (my only tank). And to give you a better idea of where I am coming from, I see the drastic imbalance in terms of being able to produce WP on the battlefield. Not who has a better Kd/r or who's fitting is more ISK efficient. Logis have many options for WP production INCLUDING slayer. That niche is supposed to be occupied by the assault role, one would think at least. I would be ok with dropping the equip slot and picking up an extra low. But that's probably just me. Okay, then a weapon fitting reduction to free up fitting flexibility. I'm open to options on making the assaults better at what they do so I can stop getting hate mail for killing proto suits in my 500 HP M/1 logi, tell me how to make it better. Fizzer94 wrote: Drapedup Drippedout wrote: Ok so logibros, how would you feel if assaults had an extra equip slot? I had an idea last night. It goes something like this: A logistics suits main reason is equipment/support, with its secondary reason being slaying. An assaults main reason is slaying, with the added bonus of an equipment slot. So we need to define that. My idea is that for a Logi to fit a Duvolle AR (92CPU/13PG), they need to first use at least 92CPU and 13PG worth of equipment, or their fit is invalid. It needs to be simpler though. It is generally accepted that 1PG is worth roughly 4CPU. With this in mind we can make a simple equation to determine the overall fitting cost of any given item.[xPG+(yCPU/4)], with this we can determine that the fitting cost of a Duvolle Assault Rifle is exactly 36. So for a Logi to fit a Duvolle, they need to fit equipment that has a fitting cost of at least 36 for the suit to be valid. Keep in ming that the opposite would be true for Assaults, so they can't fit an Proto Quantum Scanner, Boundless REs or Allotek Hives without having a good amount of weaponry first. The last thing we need is a convoluted system that screws over both classes from any kind of role diversity. You're going to **** off a lot of Gallente assaults that carry triage hives.
Cosgar ParagonX 6511	Posted - 2013.10.26 02:15:00 - [6] - Quote Drapedup Drippedout wrote: What happens if you make AR proficiency only available to the assault class? It would decrease the logi 'slayer' effectiveness, give the assault a 'competitive' advantage without having to change slots for either class. Would, in theory, help to streamline the roles. Edit: The light weapon proficiencies, either available to assault or closed to logi. On that same token, assaults shouldn't be allowed to spec into equipment, heavies into light weapons, pilots into infantry and so on. That ruins the purpose of customization by closing avenues a player has available to them. They tried this in EVE and in the end, they decided to make everything fair by making everything available to everyone despite their base parameters. Every class has the same potential to deal the same damage with the same weapon. Just because someone has extra SP invested into proficiency doesn't mean they should be nerfed.
Cosgar ParagonX 6518	Posted - 2013.10.26 02:22:00 - [7] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: Cosgar wrote: The last thing we need is a convoluted system that screws over both classes from any kind of role diversity. You're going to **** off a lot of Gallente assaults that carry triage hives. I know full well that those guys won't be too happy, but more importantly, the people that take a Logi suit and twist it into something it shouldnt be able to do will be livid. The last thing I want is a nerf to logis, real logis. I couldn't care less if the 'Slayer Logis' get nerfed to hell because of this. They deserve it, in the same way that real logis deserve to not be nerfed because other people are exploiting the same suit that that use. This would allow people that use the suit for equipment to continue doing so, while getting rid of the 'OP logis'. Then make the assault suits more attractive. I just went through an entire build in an underpowered logi suit- I had to run a complex PG enhancer 24/7. The last thing I want is to go back to something like that. Suggestions that ruin character diversity and customization aren't the answer.
Cosgar ParagonX 6518	Posted - 2013.10.26 02:25:00 - [8] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: If you just change the assaults racial bonuses to be weapon oriented, and change the logi suits so they can't leave their equip slots empty (just like other suits can't leave their weapon slots empty), problem solved. Go ask an Amarr assault that uses a LR or ScR if they like that suit better than the logi. You'll get a lot of yes'. My LR is almost a different weapon on the amarr assault compared to my logi suit. And people that run the Minmatar assault are satisfied with their suits as well for the most part- all without screwing over the Minmatar and Amarr logi.
Cosgar ParagonX 6518	Posted - 2013.10.26 02:27:00 - [9] - Quote The problem we have here is people that don't play logistics trying to change a class they don't play. Focus on what's wrong with your suit- you use it. Fix your own yard before looking at your neighbors.
Cosgar ParagonX 6521	Posted - 2013.10.26 02:44:00 - [10] - Quote Beforcial wrote: Give these assault dudetts a Dmg or RoF bonus per level, already! You're onto something, but I think DPS should be more indirect than that. CCP was on the right track with the Amarr, Minmatar, and the first Caldari assault's racial bonuses. Just reinforce that with better reload, range, ammo capacity... etc.

Cosgar ParagonX 6525	Posted - 2013.10.26 03:21:00 - [11] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: Here's how I see it: If I'm an assault, I can go to the enemy team and take out all the objective defenders. But if I'm a logistics, I am better at defense. This is because I can set up triage hives for healing/ammo, put uplinks for support spawning, and because I only have one weapon, I can go all beast mode without cover when I'm fighting 7+ attackers. Flux Grendades Tectonic Fusion wrote: Text Grant wrote: Logi's are also slower, and have a slower shield depleted recharge time. If they really kill you that much maybe you should try NOT running at everyone full speed to kill them. They have higher base health but lower regin. They have lower base HP, but can be dealt with by stacking complex shields/armor. And that's where balancing comes in, logistics are more reliant on what they equip over what their base stats are. It costs more and with the armor and (soonGäó) shield penalties, logis have to give more up just to be on the same level.
Cosgar ParagonX 6526	Posted - 2013.10.26 03:47:00 - [12] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Cosgar wrote: Tectonic Fusion wrote: Here's how I see it: If I'm an assault, I can go to the enemy team and take out all the objective defenders. But if I'm a logistics, I am better at defense. This is because I can set up triage hives for healing/ammo, put uplinks for support spawning, and because I only have one weapon, I can go all beast mode without cover when I'm fighting 7+ attackers. Flux Grendades Tectonic Fusion wrote: Text Grant wrote: Logi's are also slower, and have a slower shield depleted recharge time. If they really kill you that much maybe you should try NOT running at everyone full speed to kill them. They have higher base health but lower regin. They have lower base HP, but can be dealt with by stacking complex shields/armor. And that's where balancing comes in, logistics are more reliant on what they equip over what their base stats are. It costs more and with the armor and (soonGäó) shield penalties, logis have to give more up just to be on the same level. Excellent point, one I often forget. Having an extra low slot and the available cpu/pg to fit an armor module is not the same as having higher base eHP to start. The base eHP comes with zero penalty, whereas the armor plate slows you down. I don't have the numbers in front of me to do the maths but I suspect that an extra slot and much of the cpu/pg would disappear if you put a ferroscale plate in that slot with equivalent HP to make up for the difference in the base numbers. Sure, you could put a regular armor plate in and get more HP, but you sacrifice speed. Anyone with FPS experience beyond twitch shooters will tell you speed = life. I wish the devs would do the right thing at some point and remove the strafing cap so that the faster assault and scout suits would have a clear advantage. HMG could benefit from a stranger "snare" effect of course, but you get the point.
Cosgar ParagonX 6553	Posted - 2013.10.26 06:18:00 - [13] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: I feel good with the trade offs between Amarr Assault and Logistics since I use a Laser. I can't say much about the other suits, though. That's the point I've been repeating for months, but apparently nobody gives a ****. If logis get nerfed, you wind up with another disgruntled portion of the community and the other suits will still have whatever makes them unattractive compared to logis in the first place. Do you really want to see a disgruntled logi when you're going to need them the most in the new FW format?
Cosgar ParagonX 6636	Posted - 2013.10.27 01:03:00 - [14] - Quote OZAROW wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: OZAROW wrote: OZAROW wrote: emtbraincase wrote: best compromise i've seen is the following, stated by many individuals too numerous to mention: Assault Suit Bonus: +2% damage bonus per level with "Hybrid" Light weapons (Hybrid or whatever the AR is, basically free complex at proto. Not limiting to hybrid/whatever would make Amarr Assault + AScr/Viziam = God Mode, so limited to non-duplicating bonuses like Lt DMG and racial Laser bonus.) Assault suit Loses: No equipment slots on any racial suit (makes them a true slayer, no support options at all ) Logistics Suit Bonus: Leave alone (we rep everyone else, we gotta be able to keep our own armor up without drawing away more weapons. basically a free complex repper at proto) Logistics Suit Loses: Must use all available equipment slots before fitting becomes valid (this forces a logi to carry items into battle that assist the team whether they want to or not, thus reducing the complaint that they are ignoring equipment slots to become Billy Badass.) Both gain something useful. Trust me, most logi would consider leaving it alone to be gaining something. Both lose something, in the ability to effectively use the suit for more than it's intended purpose. 4 compact nano hives only uses the equivalent of one proto hive or less, so a smart logi slayer guys would just use that, go to the depot, switch out to uplink fits an good hive fits, dump those then back to a tanked fit with compacts, your still gonna have the same problem. The real problem is AR tanked fits, I think is what people are moaning about, but if you take away light weapons a logo can't use a cqc like a sg? To me that's wrong. I'm a scout that went logi, for the hack speed an team support for equipment an to be more usefull in pc, I can get in with my scout an switch at the depot spam equip than use either fit to defend, personally I'd say if you have a problem with logies destroy the depots then kill the logis, you don't wanna be a assault with no equip, no depot an a dead logi an no needle. That logic would ruin the game. WAIT! Did I just notice at the top that you want a built in 10% damage mod to a assault, plus a 15% damage mod built into the gun,PLUS THE ABILITY TO PUT A 10% DAMAGE MOD ON BEFORE STACKING PENALTIES OCCUR! ARE YOU FUKKING CRAZY! Some people are not so good at maths. 2% is clearly too high. Sounds like peeps are mad they didn't go logi because they didn't want to spec the equipment, now they see that a logi can have more HP which it should an it can rep itself an have all it needed to have lone wolf abilities an stack more damage which it should so that if it's team drops it can fight back to needle a teammate then pick up the next an essentially they can be the life force of the squad. An that's how it should be And on that same token, assaults get access to more weapon variety the logistics. How many logis do you see with lasers, TAC ARs, or swarms?
Cosgar ParagonX 6639	Posted - 2013.10.27 03:47:00 - [15] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Cosgar wrote: OZAROW wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: emtbraincase wrote: best compromise i've seen is the following, stated by many individuals too numerous to mention: Assault Suit Bonus: +2% damage bonus per level with "Hybrid" Light weapons (Hybrid or whatever the AR is, basically free complex at proto. Not limiting to hybrid/whatever would make Amarr Assault + AScr/Viziam = God Mode, so limited to non-duplicating bonuses like Lt DMG and racial Laser bonus.) Assault suit Loses: No equipment slots on any racial suit (makes them a true slayer, no support options at all ) Logistics Suit Bonus: Leave alone (we rep everyone else, we gotta be able to keep our own armor up without drawing away more weapons. basically a free complex repper at proto) Logistics Suit Loses: Must use all available equipment slots before fitting becomes valid (this forces a logi to carry items into battle that assist the team whether they want to or not, thus reducing the complaint that they are ignoring equipment slots to become Billy Badass.) Both gain something useful. Trust me, most logi would consider leaving it alone to be gaining something. Both lose something, in the ability to effectively use the suit for more than it's intended purpose. 4 compact nano hives only uses the equivalent of one proto hive or less, so a smart logi slayer guys would just use that, go to the depot, switch out to uplink fits an good hive fits, dump those then back to a tanked fit with compacts, your still gonna have the same problem. The real problem is AR tanked fits, I think is what people are moaning about, but if you take away light weapons a logo can't use a cqc like a sg? To me that's wrong. I'm a scout that went logi, for the hack speed an team support for equipment an to be more usefull in pc, I can get in with my scout an switch at the depot spam equip than use either fit to defend, personally I'd say if you have a problem with logies destroy the depots then kill the logis, you don't wanna be a assault with no equip, no depot an a dead logi an no needle. That logic would ruin the game. Some people are not so good at maths. 2% is clearly too high. And on that same token, assaults get access to more weapon variety the logistics. How many logis do you see with lasers, TAC ARs, or swarms? raises hand I use laz0rs reasonably often, swarms too, though the swarm is not always on a logi suit, admittedly. But, I have the advantage of a sidearm, so... But Amarr logi is working as intended as an assault hybrid. If I tried carrying swarms on my Minmatar, that's a death sentence.
Cosgar ParagonX 6697	Posted - 2013.10.28 04:05:00 - [16] - Quote INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC wrote: Cosgar wrote: Drapedup Drippedout wrote: Ok so logibros, how would you feel if assaults had an extra equip slot? Why not a damage mod fitting reduction? Hey I like that, I could even go for that and a weapon bonus fitting reduction. Honestly the only thing I find wrong with my assault suit is not having enough cpu pg to bring out the suits full potential. This came up in another assault vs logi topic but why not base everything on fitting reductions: Assault - Weapon Mods Scouts - Biotics and Electronics Heavies- Armor and Shields Logistics - Equipment Make these a third suit bonus, lower the CPU/PG on logistics, and give scouts a second equipment slot. There, I just re-balanced Dust 514's suits.
Cosgar ParagonX 6699	Posted - 2013.10.28 04:46:00 - [17] - Quote INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC wrote: Cosgar wrote: INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC wrote: Cosgar wrote: Drapedup Drippedout wrote: Ok so logibros, how would you feel if assaults had an extra equip slot? Why not a damage mod fitting reduction? Hey I like that, I could even go for that and a weapon bonus fitting reduction. Honestly the only thing I find wrong with my assault suit is not having enough cpu pg to bring out the suits full potential. This came up in another assault vs logi topic but why not base everything on fitting reductions: Assault - Weapon Mods Scouts - Biotics and Electronics Heavies- Armor and Shields Logistics - Equipment Make these a third suit bonus, lower the CPU/PG on logistics, and give scouts a second equipment slot. There, I just re-balanced Dust 514's suits. The only reduction I wouldnt cry over is if cpu was lowered to match my cal logi... I'm thinking that both medium frames of the same race would have identical CPU/PG to eliminate butthurt. This way logistics that try to play as a gimped, tanky, expensive assault without a sidearm wouldn't get this crazy advantage assaults think they're getting since they won't have the CPU/PG to do so without using their extra low for an enhancer while each suit class/frame has something they're better at equipping over another while classes that do like to play outside the box like shotgun assaults that use speed mods can go unchanged.
Cosgar ParagonX 6737	Posted - 2013.10.28 22:16:00 - [18] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: if you really need that extra 80 HP then lol. ok. Fact is, the logi is a better defender than the assault suit, but it isn't as good at 'assaulting' because it doesn't have a backup weapon and it's slow. Yeah, a tanked logi will beat an assault in a straight up spreadsdheet battle, but an assault who plays like an assault can outmanuever long enough to get that 0.1 second headstart and nullify any 80hp advantage a logi may have. Plus, assaults get more relevant bonuses to their suits. Deal with it or play CoD. QFT
Cosgar ParagonX 6749	Posted - 2013.10.29 01:28:00 - [19] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: Logistics =/= medics. Think of them as combat engineers. It makes sense that they should be able to hold their own in combat. The Amarr assault vs the amarr logi has the best dynamic between the two classes IMO. One isn't better than the other, even at combat, they just fill different roles in the combat. The assault has a bonus that drives the damage potential of laser weaponry through the roof, but the amarr logis are arguably the best armor tanking suit in the game and has equipment to support the team. Running the LR on an assault suit lets me wreak havoc on enemies due to the insane damage I can get up to with the heat reduction bonus, but running the LR on a logi suit lets me provide long range support from a position that has an uplink, a hive and I can scan out targets at the cost of not being able to use the LR to it's full potential. A better assault suit spec would do wonders for fixing any complaints about the logi suit. But I sure as hell don't buy into the idea that the logi shouldn't be a combat worthy suit. It kinda feels like people are wanting to nerf logis for easy kills. I wish I could like this more than once.
Cosgar ParagonX 6749	Posted - 2013.10.29 01:46:00 - [20] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Reading this thread, I actually like the idea of logi's getting sidearms, if only for the reason of getting the 90% of the population who currently use logistics suits OUT of those logistics suits. I mean seriously, the logi spam is annoying as ****, I joined this game when you would be lucky to see a single logi on the field, now everyone and their mother is using them. I'm tired of the over abundance of our role, but the right people notice the difference between the real deal and a cheap imitation. Got quite a bit of love mail this weekend just for dropping triage hives in domination and running around with a proto injector. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando but got a server notification saying "Why?"

Cosgar ParagonX 6762	Posted - 2013.10.29 04:52:00 - [21] - Quote INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC wrote: OZAROW wrote: I have always been a scout an my secondary choice is logi. I chrome it had a real purpose because heavies were amazing! They travelled in pairs, assaults carried needles an logis supplied needles, rep tools links an hives, an a lot of scouts carried either a needle, links or a rep tool, because scouts had enough HP to stay close to a squad. Now! THE GAME CHANGED 1. HEAVIES SUCK AND ARE NOT FEARED= squads leave th behind an don't lead with them Infront like before. Used to be a heavy leading the pack, logistics getting guardian points , assaults surrounding the logi an a scout orbiting the pack like the moon. 2. Needles suck, because noobs do the quick 60 militia point thing in a fire fight so now nobody trusts it they respawn ASAP . 3. Logies cant see your Health bar so they carry links an rep hives for you to monitor your own life an give you a spot to spawn. So just cuz they have pro 5 on a gun an can stack HP an damage an equip that is the game makers fault for removing the HP bar. Their is less risk involved an the logi is now forced to lead than follow because heavies drop to fast the heavy now backs the logi 4. Scouts had a equipment and slot removed, they have no specific role other than lone wolfing it away from danger an the CPU hardly allows room for links because their scanning is hardly better than anyone else's so they need a scanner. Fix this don't nerf anything! You left one thing out that changed since the precious, closed and open betas, REAL SHOOTERS GOT IN YOUR GAME, and the eve nerds and their qqing alts started realizing how much they sucked compared to shooters of my age and generation, the shooters of quake, doom, halo, cod, arrived and you nerds with your spreadsheets and your domimation of the cpm with people playing eve for 9 years like JENZA who are not shooters have been using that influence to continue to nerf whatever makes them sad, everytime they face off in combat, thats why when you have people come up with great combos like 2 bad ass minjas running together with dual core flaylocks and owning, they cried foul, and nerf because the chaos they created disrupted the set piece warfare mentality that was carried over from eve, which is beautiful and free and nerfed not because it was op but because these glorified pc RISK players couldnt figure out how to counter the terrible tandem minja flaylocks. You people who cried about that are the same nubs crying now, the answer is still the same you suck and any variation of this shooter will still make you suck. Even with aa and crazy hit detection still here you are crying again...... rrrrrraaaaaggggghhhhhhh And I dont care about people named LOGI BRO with his 9000000000 likes trying to define what a logi suit is or isnt, the suit is what we make it if your happy with your tool stuck up a amarrs skirt then do it you failhard but dont come here and tell a grown ass man thats spent hundreds of dollars on this game how to play his suit or his style, there are plenty of games that limit and define your role with no ability to deviate from that GO THERE.. PS if I said something that offended your feminine spoiled ass white suburban nerd disposition im in game right now playing caldari fw suit up, and clamp down your vagina I would take cod out of that list of shooters you gave if you want people to take you seriously. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"