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Aero Yassavi
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
3265
   |
Posted - 2013.10.25 20:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
Scout suit's profile signature is 45 dB. This is the same as the light frame, but that's besides the point.
Standard scanner precision is 46 dB
Advanced scanner precision is 36 dB
Proto scanner precision* is 28 dB
*Duvolle Focused precision is 15 dB
Values of complex profile dampeners taking into account stacking penalty:
1st: 25% reduction, 75% of the value
2nd: 21.75% reduction, 78.25% of the value
3rd: 14.25% reduction, 85.75% of the value
4th: 7% reduction, 93% of the value
So a scout with max skills (25% reduction from Scout and 10% from dampening) would be
45 dB * 0.75 * 0.90 = 30.375 dB
This is now enough to avoid advanced scanner, makes sense that your passive skills actually ups you a tier in evasion
Add 1st complex dampener,
30.375 dB * 0.75 = 22.78125 dB
This is now enough to avoid proto scanners*, makes sense that adding a proto module actually ups you a tier in evasion
Add 2nd complex dampener,
22.78125 dB * 0.7825 = 17.826328125 dB
You gained nothing with this, makes no sense to for a second proto module to add no benefit
Add 3rd complex dampener,
17.826328125 dB * 0.8575 = 15.2860763671825 dB
You still gained nothing, really makes no sense that adding 2 more proto module to have no benefit
Add 4th complex dampener,
15.2860763671825 dB * 0.93 = 14.216....... dB
After adding 3 additional proto modules, you are finally able to avoid the Duvolle Focused
Now what's really funny about this is the Duvolle Focus actually has LESS fitting requirements than all the other prototype active scanners, the only think extra is a slight ISK premium. So really, if scouts ever actually became viable, then why would anyone using proto scanners not use the Duvolle focused? Yeah the other proto modules do some cool things, but with the Focus you'd all but guarantee that everyone is scanned. Heck, Minmatar scouts don't even have enough low slots to counter this!
What CCP should really look at is a way to tweak the numbers of scanners and scout suit profile (just the scout, not the light) such that everything remains the same for all suits except a scout will be able to evade the Duvolle Focused with max skills and 2 complex dampeners.
I'm trying to think of the exact numbers to get this to work, but it's a bit tricky trying to get it so scout with max skills and nothing else still only avoids advanced, one complex dampener added to that still only avoids the regular protos, and only after adding 2 complex dampeners can it avoid the Duvolle focused. At the same time, you want it so non-scout lights cannot dodge the Duvolle Focused and mediums avoid standard with max skills (as it is now), advanced with one complex dampner (as it is now), normal protos with 2 complex dampeners (as it is now), and impossible for a medium to evade the Duvolle focused.
The scout is the stealth class, let it be reasonably able to avoid all active scanners. |
Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
1756
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 23:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:... so if scouts ever actually became viable ...
 +  + CCP = Buff Mediums?
^ The past as predictor of future.
- An Overlooked Scout |
Dominus Fatali
Nox Aeterna Security
508
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 01:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
Do Profile Dampeners actually have an unlabeled Stacking Penalty? |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
4743
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 02:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
It's my understanding that if there is no penalty mentioned in the description then there are no stacking penalties period. Unless of course you have done extensive research on this during the recent 1.4 patch. |
Cass Caul
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
173
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 02:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
Dominus Fatali wrote:Do Profile Dampeners actually have an unlabeled Stacking Penalty?
Any and all modules that have a percentage value instead of a hard number have the stacking penalty.
It has been like this for the past year. |
Aero Yassavi
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
3279
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 16:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:It's my understanding that if there is no penalty mentioned in the description then there are no stacking penalties period. Unless of course you have done extensive research on this during the recent 1.4 patch.
There are quite a few module types that don't say anything about stacking penalty, but they do, in fact, have a stacking penalty. As stated, everything that works off a percentage has a stacking penalty. |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
1639
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 16:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:It's my understanding that if there is no penalty mentioned in the description then there are no stacking penalties period. Unless of course you have done extensive research on this during the recent 1.4 patch. There are quite a few module types that don't say anything about stacking penalty, but they do, in fact, have a stacking penalty. As stated, everything that works off a percentage has a stacking penalty.
Whilst I haven't tested with dampeners, I have with range amps (which also don't state they have stacking penalties) and those have unannounced stacking penalties, so I suspect dampeners do too.
The way to fix the duvolle scanner is to make it 18db. It would then only be avoidable by proto scouts with max dampening skills and 2 dampeners. This is reasonable but still difficult to achieve and requires the sacrifice of 2 valuable low slots on a fully specced scout suit and nigh on unreachable for any other.
However, the duvolle focused is a terrible scanner, apart from the very low precision. The problem I am now seeing more and more is that many people are running proto scanners and picking up my fully specced scout suit. In order to avoid these scanners on my advanced suit, I'd have to sacrifice my only low slot (the other has to use a CPU upgrade because there can never be enough to run anything decent on a scout suit). That means that in order to remain stealthy (the only advantage scouts still have), you have to run a proto suit.
So, a scanner that costs just 11,535 isk and requires less than 1 million SP can only be beaten by using a suit that costs 57,690 isk and requires well over 2 million SP. That is not balanced. |
Aero Yassavi
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
3279
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 16:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
I agree mostly, but the other doesn't "have to be" a CPU upgrade. You could instead choose to sacrifice in other areas.
For instance, on my scout fits I run the lowest tier weapons because I don't intend to engage the enemy much anyways. |
Rich o
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
88
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 16:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
Shouldn't the 4 modules be cumulated instead of a single reduction?
Also I'm confused about the skills. You gain 25% and 10%, shouldn't they also be cumulated to match 35% as they are core skills? This would lead us scouts to have a basic profile of 29,25 db
Just asking because I checked the wiki (http://dust514.wikia.com/wiki/Stacking_Penalty) which declares the effects of each module downgraded to the values you mention, but also the cummulative bonus.... |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
1639
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 17:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
Rich o wrote:Shouldn't the 4 modules be cumulated instead of a single reduction? Also I'm confused about the skills. You gain 25% and 10%, shouldn't they also be cumulated to match 35% as they are core skills? This would lead us scouts to have a basic profile of 29,25 db Just asking because I checked the Wiki which declares the effects of each module downgraded to the values you mention, but also the cummulative bonus....
Yes, that is our basic profile with full skills. That still doesn't beat proto scanners without an extra module. I don't get where the confusion is? |
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Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
1639
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 17:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:I agree mostly, but the other doesn't "have to be" a CPU upgrade. You could instead choose to sacrifice in other areas.
For instance, on my scout fits I run the lowest tier weapons because I don't intend to engage the enemy much anyways.
I suppose. On my hacking scout I have to use a std pistol instead of the adv and only std dmg mods but it's pretty much useless for anything other than hacking. What's the point in having a suit that can avoid proto scanners but not actually do anything? I can be invisible but can't actually fight anyone and my hacking speed is 25% less because I can't fit a 2nd codebreaker. That's just pointless. |
Rich o
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
88
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 17:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Rich o wrote:Shouldn't the 4 modules be cumulated instead of a single reduction? Also I'm confused about the skills. You gain 25% and 10%, shouldn't they also be cumulated to match 35% as they are core skills? This would lead us scouts to have a basic profile of 29,25 db Just asking because I checked the Wiki which declares the effects of each module downgraded to the values you mention, but also the cummulative bonus.... Yes, that is our basic profile with full skills. That still doesn't beat proto scanners without an extra module. I don't get where the confusion is?
I'm confused because OP states that with maxed out core skills you have 30+ db. And if the modules add up the whole math would be wrong. |
Oswald Rehnquist
Abandoned Privilege
General Tso's Alliance
344
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 18:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
If we are ever going to get cloaks, then I do believe there should be one scanner that should guarantee a break on them, though I do believe the fitting cots should be higher |
843 nerfnut96
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
135
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 18:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
*Raises hand*
The Focused scanner doesn't simply have " LESS fitting requirements". It uses 8 less CPU, BUT uses uses DOUBLE the PG.
However i agree scouts need a way to evade without using all low slots. |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
1639
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 18:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
Rich o wrote:Django Quik wrote:Rich o wrote:Shouldn't the 4 modules be cumulated instead of a single reduction? Also I'm confused about the skills. You gain 25% and 10%, shouldn't they also be cumulated to match 35% as they are core skills? This would lead us scouts to have a basic profile of 29,25 db Just asking because I checked the Wiki which declares the effects of each module downgraded to the values you mention, but also the cummulative bonus.... Yes, that is our basic profile with full skills. That still doesn't beat proto scanners without an extra module. I don't get where the confusion is? I'm confused because OP states that with maxed out core skills you have 30+ db. And if the modules add up the whole math would be wrong.
Oh no, sorry I totally misread that - my bad. Yeah, the skills are multiplicative not additive, so it's 45*0.75*0.9, not 45*0.65. |
Aero Yassavi
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
3282
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 19:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote:If we are ever going to get cloaks, then I do believe there should be one scanner that should guarantee a break on them, though I do believe the fitting cots should be higher
Fair enough, but we do not have cloaks now, yet there is still a scanner that seems to serve as their counter. |
Godin Thekiller
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
1284
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 20:39:00 -
[17] - Quote
you did the stacking wrong. |
Aero Yassavi
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
3282
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 20:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:you did the stacking wrong.
I used the following numbers,
1st mod: 100.0% effectiveness
2nd mod: 86.9% effectiveness
3rd mod: 57.1% effectiveness
4th mod: 28.3% effectiveness
Pretty sure that is correct. Though I see a way I worded that weirdly and will edit. |
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