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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Templar 514
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
17
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Posted - 2013.10.29 03:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
JP Acuna wrote:But I can't wait to see a Forgegun nerf. Why would you punish swarms so bad and leave that annoying thing alone? I mean, it's good against tanks, but too good against dropships. Plus, it can kill infantry!! Swarms cannot.
But WHAT ABOUT FORGEGUNS??? why not reduce their range or at least make a drastic (i mean drastic) damage reduction over distance?
Just quoting the, IMO, relevant portions. Namely, a nerf to the already brokenly terrible heavy class. Seriously, as a part-time heavy, I am incredibly offended by your frothing desire to take the only useful and effective weapon that heavies currently have, and NERF INTO THE GROUND.
You sir, are an atrocious disgrace, and I fervently hope that you are Forge Gunned at least 7 times in every single match you play from now until the end of New Eden. Which will coincide with the end of the world. |
Templar 514
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
17
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 04:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote: That just means that the Heavy needs fixing, not to give it one single crutch and ruin everyone else's fun.
My main issue with what that guy said was that he more-or-less desired for the Forge Gun to be nerfed into uselessness. I DO agree that heavies in general need fixing, but right now the biggest thing that makes them at least passable is the Forge Gun. Until I see anything regarding dropsuit rebalance, then I will continue to say "don't nerf Forge Gun, because then heavy=useless".
I'm hoping that 1.7/1.8 brings a much needed update to dropsuits in general (would like more variety in heavies to shoot at, since I'm AmarrSuitsForLife), and especially to heavies and our incredibly hardcore scoutbros, but until then. Yeah. Forges don't need a lot of "nerfing", so much as "tweaking".
Fizzer94 wrote:Just quoting the stupid part.
I didn't realize Heavies couldn't use ARs.
Just quoting the stupid part. I didn't think people thought AR+Heavy is a good idea. Hint: A medium frame anything will do that infinitely better. I also didn't think that people would be so daft as to believe I was speaking of all weapon classes, rather than the class-specific Heavy Weapons that no one but Heavies can carry. |
Templar 514
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
17
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 05:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Fizzer94 wrote:The Forge Gun shouldnt be OP, just because the heavy isn't that great. It is OP by the way, for being so easy to use, it shouldn't be able to kill both Vehicles and Dropshots so efficiently. It needs to lose the splash damage.
Look, I'm just going to start off by being upfront about this: I was a diehard, all-fatty-all-the-time type of guy in Chromosome, where it was incredibly expensive to be so bootylicious that you could carry Heavy weapons. Uprising comes along, and I pretty much go a mix of Amarr Assault and Amarr Logi, with just a little heavy thrown in in preparation for the eventual arrival of an Amarr heavy weapon. You know why? Because Assaults with ARs are cutting me down in my HMG's optimal range, where I *should* have the DPS and EHP advantage. Because of my still-undying hatred of the GAR, I have refused to spec into it, despite having two GAR BPOs in my inventory.
I didn't switch because I wanted to be that AR guy. I switched because I wanted to have a fighting chance again. Outrange me when I have my HMG? Fine, I accept that loss with dignity. Outnumber and surround me? I'll accept it, especially if I take one or two guys with me. But rush me point blank with an AR, and gun me down with impunity when I should have the DPS and EHP advantage? I call broken balance- I should not have to fit an AR to a fatsuit in order to be on equal terms in close quarters, because the HMG is supposed to fill that role for the heavy.
Yes, right now heavies are cheaper to run, and have ever-so-slightly more EHP than in Chrome, but ARs are still cutting us fatties down at point blank range. 99% of the time it's a medium frame that does it. HMGs are probably the worst weapon in the game (yes, even the PlasCan works better than the HMG, trust me, I use both), on one of the most brokenly bad suits in the game, to the point that the only other heavy weapon in the game makes being a Heavy actually useful to a team.
Forges are one of the few things where the description gives an accurate expectation of what you're going to get. It's described as more-or-less an anti-everything gun. I DO agree that Forge Guns need balancing work done, but I don't think that they are brokenly good.
For the most part, I'd say that Assault forges are a bit out of line- they are dealing more damage than the garden-variety charge-holding variant, in both direct and splash damage. I don't think that the actual splash damage values are too high- if anything I would say that doing the following would be a good way to begin iteration on Forge Gun balance:
Swap Forge Gun/AFG damage values
Reduce splash radius on regular/assault FGs [Breach Forges are already difficult enough to use, I have literally only been killed by a Breach FG ONCE, and I was in a tank to boot; I also have a single BreachFG kill to my name, because some people turn off their brains when they jump in a turret]
And then working from there. Also, WHY do you think Forges are OP? I mean, tower-sniping is pretty bad, but mostly it's AFGs that are out of wack. Keep in mind that most dedicated tower Forge snipers tend to rely on splash damage to get their kills, so reducing the radius is actually a good way to kill tower sniping with FGs- it becomes too difficult for the average splash-happy Forge sniper.
As an aside, I enjoy blapping people with the Forge Gun, but I also ALWAYS try to go for the direct hit, AND I dislike the AFG for doing such things. I also don't generally get onto high vantage points- partly due to laziness (I'd rather just stand here and blap dudes, since I can already see them), partly due to being a terrible derpship pilot (think I'm above a tower, get out, fall to ground and have said derpship land on top of me. True story.).
Yes, it's a wall of text. If you want a TL;DR, then here it is: Forge Guns need tweaking, not nerfing, heavies are brokenly bad, HMGs are brokenly nigh-useless, and until then I will continue to harvest tears when I blap dudes with my Forge from a ground level position.
As a final note, can you at least explain in *some* measure of detail why you think FGs are OP? |
Templar 514
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 21:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
Fizzer94 wrote:{snipped well-written Forge/PlasCan balance and general gudpost, because text limits}
I'll be honest, I *really* LIKE that you want Forges to be their own kind of thing, where it is a skillshot weapon. Incidentally, this is why I like the 1.6 patch notes- they indicate that Forges are getting a splash radius nerf, increasing the skillshot aspect of the weapon.
Now, I will say that I think Forge-vs-PlasCan balance is actually pretty good (IMHO)- but this has to do more with the limitations that Heavy weapons impose upon the player (only Heavy Frame/Sentinel suits, no equipment, glacial speed), while the PlasCan can be slapped on any suit whatsoever, and is still quite deadly- especially when benefiting from 2+ damage mods.
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Easy fix to forge guns I either posted or read before on this forum.
The reticule should not turn red when aimed at dropsuits.
There, forge gun tower spammers and anti-infantry duties fixed.
BTW this is coming from someone who uses forge guns ALOT.
Oh and the heavy has bigger problems than the forge gun being the only viable weapon. Those problem should be addressed, not covered up.
I disagree. I think that reducing splash radius (which will be in 1.6, see above devblog link), and a possible reduction in splash damage, is all that is necessary. While Forges have perfect accuracy, the reticle is the size of a barn and is actually kind of tricky to line up long range shots with, in my experience.
I do agree, however, that the Forge being the only viable heavy weapon is the LEAST of the heavy's problems, and I DEFINITELY agree that said problems should be addressed rather than covered up.
JP Acuna wrote:{snipped general stupidity about how heavies are "fine", even though he doesn't know jack about heavies}
I absolutely LOVE how players that have no idea what it's like to be heavy tell us heavybros that we're "bad heavies" since we lose to AR scrubs in pointblank shootouts while using HMGs /sarcasm. Guess what? Heavies are broken. HMGs are even more broken.
Did you know that the HMGs hit detection is actually so broken, that in order to get ANY hits you MUST have the incredibly-teeny-tiny center dot on target? I'm quite certain that you have no idea that that's the case. I also like the argument of "you need teamwork to make heavies work well", but then follow up with "a single sniper can't take down a heavy".
You want to kill some dork who's tower forging? GET A FREAKIN' BUDDY AND SYNC YOUR SNIPER FIRE. If a heavy needs teamwork in order to function (which Assaults do not, and I'll even put ISK on the fact that you're an Assault scrub who runs AR), then either shut up and deal, or complain to team/squad mates to help you, if you can't kill a heavy. Or drop an OB on them, that's always an option for squads.
For the record, no, I do not expect to soak fire from 3+ guys and still gun them down with impunity. I even said as much in a previous post, where I also talk about the problem where AR dorks are gunning us heavies down at point blank, and 1v1.
I also mentioned in said post that I will Forge snipe FROM THE GROUND. I don't sit on towers and try to Forge snipe people- mostly because I paradoxically find it difficult to blap people from such incredibly high vantage points, and the total lack of zoom the Forge has doesn't help.
SO, to recap: No, I don't want heavies to be OP. Yes, they are brokenly bad. Yes, HMGs are worse off than PlasCans (at least you can HIT people with PlasCans, instead of having imaginary bullet cone of fluffy tickles with center-bullet-hose-dot). No, Forges are not uncounterable, you're simply too lazy.
NICK PETRONE wrote:Well if you're going to nerf the swarms and the AV grenades you might as well nerf the proximity explosions too and make killing a tank an entire match excursion... Dumb idea. Tanks are still really hard to kill. Esp. when your going up against an experienced tanker with a missile launcher that can take you out in one blast. Not cool at all.
I like how people don't read the Vehicle changes, or how the AV changes are only coming in 1.7 WHEN VEHICLE CHANGES GO LIVE /sarcasm.
For the record, Proxy explosives are already bad, so nerfing them is unnecessary. Also, current Large Missile Turrets are incredibly unpredictable, and therefore unreliable. Also also, READ THE OP BETTER. Seriously. New Rifles+rifle changes are coming in 1.7, along with vehicle and AV changes. Pretty much says it on the tin. |
Templar 514
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 06:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Text Grant wrote:Swarms need that range. Without it I only see 2 fixes.
1 make them OHK fast vehicles and 3 hit kill slow ones.
2 make them sidearms with reduced skill multipliers and CPU pg usage
Without something along these lines it will take multiple dedicated av specialists to kill one vehicle. This imbalances 1 paper beats 1 rock.
Once again, I love how people don't look at the whole picture /end sarcasm. Swarm Launcher changes are coming in with 1.7 (which will be December), which is ALSO when the vehicle changes hit. The Swarm Launcher 'nerf' is to balance them against the new vehicle stats.
Seriously, pay attention to the stickies and at least look over them in passing. |
Templar 514
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
39
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 02:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Did you actually read the post? Like, this part (emphasis mine):
CCP Wolfman wrote:Lastly, as part of the ongoing vehicle work I can confirm we are also making changes to AV. So far weGÇÖve touched the AV Grenades and Swarm Launcher, we do also plan to look at the Forge Gun.
For the record, AV grenade/Swarm changes are equal to the vehicle changes that are also coming in 1.7. So I don't think that it's out of line, that both vehicles and AV weapons are being changed to bring general balance between the two. |
Templar 514
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
39
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 22:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
Luk Manag wrote:Yeah, no. The range nerfing will gimp the swarm launchers. You'll need to be on the top of a building to lock a dropship, and you will need to jump off to lock random LAVs and HAVs. Forge guns will be our only option.
Watch this first, and then come back to me.
Done? Okay, first off, I am not JudgeRhadamanthus, but he is very obviously a skilled dropship pilot and I'd say he has at least a good, if not excellent, grasp of what he's talking about.
Further, Iron Wolf Saber (you know, our most talkative CPM dude?) has confirmed (link not handy, unfortunately), that only lock range is being nerfed- if you lock&fire, but they then fly/drive out of lock-range, then your missiles still pursue effectively. So, that leaves us with two options for your opinion:
1. You do not understand that we want balance, and it's broken for a single dork with a Swarm to be able to lock down every objective from a dropship, while also being death incarnate to HAVs, without having to sacrifice anything.
2. You don't care that we want balance and are whining that you are going to actually have to engage your brain and make decisions, like "Which objective is most critical to my team, and needs me to defend it from vehicles?", instead of having easymode fire-and-forget Swarms that kill all the things.
Kharga Lum wrote:Is the charge up for each shot or charge then burst?
Will the Laser Rifle still serve a purpose when competing with the Rail Rifle?
The RR will be charge-then-bullet-hose; it's listed as having an automatic firemode and a charge time, so unlike the Scrambler rifle or the Forge Gun, which are single-fire, it'll just charge and then saw things in half. Figuratively speaking.
As for the LR, well.... the LR is close to my heart- it was probably my favorite gun in Chrome, and I still love it and occasionally drop it. But as-is, I think that the RR will temporarily obsolete the LR. But it has been confirmed by the devs (sadly, again, link not handy) that the LR will be iterated on further. Unfortunately, it was also confirmed that this iteration won't be in 1.7, so Lasers will temporarily be worthless compared to the RR.
Unless you run Amarr Assault in which case you will burninate all the things. |
Templar 514
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
39
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 00:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Her Nibs wrote:My KDR sucks because I spend my time chasing away drop ships to protect the team. I sometimes have to follow tanks to swarm them, I have to lock on to Lav's while they are trying to run me over. If I am lucky emough to get a kill because some guy forgot to abandon ship, yeah for me. AV doesn't fit every battle or location, so I have to be skilled with another weapon. Give me 4 shots to a clip for my swarm, make it so tanks and lav's can't be recalled because they are about to blow up, make it so dropships can't fly so high, you can't see them, give them less range. We not only have to be skilled with a swarm, but also have to have speed and stamina to chase vehicles. Give a dedicated AV suite an extra slot for shielding or hardeners like a tamk. NO...your answer is to nerf. I can still spit farther than 175 m.
...........I want to try to deal with your post logically, but the eye-bleedingly-large wall of text you present makes that a trying task. It's only compounded by the fact that you are saying stupid things. So I'll address this in a way that you will hopefully understand:
1. As the previously linked video explains, a single Swarm user can park themselves in their own redline and still be able to lock a dropship at any range on the map. This is broken.
2. The Swarm launcher already has an immense burst damage thanks to its incredibly short lock/fire times. A 3 round clip, and a somewhat lengthy reload, are what is keeping that burst damage balanced.
3. Swarm changes are balanced against the new vehicle changes. Read the freakin' post, and understand that the current Swarm would be so OP that nobody would ever spec vehicles.
4. Carry AV grenades if you're LAV hunting. Carry Proxy explosives as well, and set up a trap. Also, the days of the murder taxi are effectively over- bumpers are no longer "tap=dead", so you can in fact dance around an LAV while it ineffectually attempts to put the rubber to your armor.
5. Stop trying to murderize everything. Half of the role of AV- especial light AV like swarms- is to deter and suppress vehicles. If you cannot stand not killing every vehicle in your way, then either get a friend or HTFU.
6. Stop trying to chase vehicles. It's a loosing battle from the start, since they are much faster than you. Alternately, have a stock of cheap militia LAVs handy. Or friends. Or use your brain to create a trap.
7. Vehicles with critical armor damage (as in, they are on fire) are already unable to be recalled.
8. Stop complaining about Dropships. They're already 99% useless, and 100% a flying coffin.
9. You are in idiot if you think that 175 meters is a short distance. Currently, only Sniper Rifles, FGs, Swarms, and very lucky PlasCan users can even try to shoot things that far away with any effect.
10. If you want extra durability, then use the Commando suit. If you want extra killing power against vehicles, then get a FG. If you want to be able to kill any vehicle no matter what with the press of a button, HTFU.
11. Your KDR is meaningless, to me and everyone else in this thread. ISK efficiency is where it's at, but we don't actually have a stat tracker for that yet. |
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