DUST Search - The real logi balance thread.

Dirks Macker wrote:

RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:

Dirks Macker wrote:

I use Gal logi quite a bit. I like the equipment fitting bonus, it makes sense with the three slots you get.

I was looking at some of the other bonuses and the Amarr armor local rep seems silly. So does the Minmatar hacking bonus. The Caldari shield regulator bonus makes it more of an assault suit.

If I could change the bonuses, I would make them:

* Gallente: Equipment fitting (stays same)

* Amarr: Armor rep amount bonus (like a miniature Guardian - Amarr logi ship in EVE )

* Minmatar: Bonus to remote explosive damage (move hacking bonus to Caldari scout)

* Caldari: Bonus to those future portable shield bubbles (making it the choice for medic role)

No, your bonuses would preclude alternative equipment, you have locked logis into a specific item. That is unacceptable. Bonuses should be universal in their scope. Gallente: fit, Amarr: repair, Min: hack, Caldari: shields. This is also a comment on the current bonuses. Requireing a suit to use a specific weapon, or module in order to be effective is not a good bonus in my opinion.

Gall, ok. Min, ok, but the other bonuses could change - same for the assaults.

How do bonuses preclude alternate equipment? My proposal gives each race a small edge in one area, much like bonuses work in EVE.

In DUST, you could get an idea as to what an enemy logi has equipped to take advantage of that bonus. An Amarr logi would likely have a repper, Minmatar remote explosives, etc... I think that would add to the experience.


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RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 437	Posted - 2013.10.24 21:40:00 - [1] - Quote Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back :) However, suggesting every equipment slot being filled is better than most of the other suggestions. Great talks about these subjects are months old, they address the balancing for such suggestions like the OP of sidearms only, racial variants, cutting logi modules, etc... and in the end it came down to this: the assaults have less of a specialty bonus - a benefit to being an assault - the scouts need love (CCP has stated as much) and the heavy is coming along slowly. The logi they got right, the other suits need work. We will see what happens in the future.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 437	Posted - 2013.10.24 21:57:00 - [2] - Quote Is the fact of better starting physical stats being completely ignored here? Better shield recharge, better move, smaller hitbox, better hp stats, with equal module slots - means that every skill bonus enhances the assaults far beyond what a logi can achieve. A logi is a variable suit but in most cases functions better as a defensive suit, however dropping all equipment you could pump yourself up in modules but still not as good as an assault. - Especially now that the bonuses to the cal logi have changed.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 441	Posted - 2013.10.25 01:05:00 - [3] - Quote Dirks Macker wrote: I use Gal logi quite a bit. I like the equipment fitting bonus, it makes sense with the three slots you get. I was looking at some of the other bonuses and the Amarr armor local rep seems silly. So does the Minmatar hacking bonus. The Caldari shield regulator bonus makes it more of an assault suit. If I could change the bonuses, I would make them: * Gallente: Equipment fitting (stays same) * Amarr: Armor rep amount bonus (like a miniature Guardian - Amarr logi ship in EVE ) * Minmatar: Bonus to remote explosive damage (move hacking bonus to Caldari scout) * Caldari: Bonus to those future portable shield bubbles (making it the choice for medic role) No, your bonuses would preclude alternative equipment, you have locked logis into a specific item. That is unacceptable. Bonuses should be universal in their scope. Gallente: fit, Amarr: repair, Min: hack, Caldari: shields. This is also a comment on the current bonuses. Requireing a suit to use a specific weapon, or module in order to be effective is not a good bonus in my opinion. Gall, ok. Min, ok, but the other bonuses could change - same for the assaults.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 442	Posted - 2013.10.25 01:31:00 - [4] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Im not talking out of my a here. I know the advantage i have while wearing my Logi suit. All the advantages none of the disadvantages.If i dont like something about the suit, pling! Module and its fixed. Its so adaptable that i can Run as a scout, with lower profile dampening and 600 HP. Or tank (At ADV level) all the way up to 900HP for 35k ISK. Or i can stack Damage mods (3) and Armor tank for 680 HP and a Lot of firepower...etc.. Logis at proto level outlast heavies,have more firepower than assaults,can run faster than scouts,etc/// Every suit needs a downfall. 1)Logis DONT have disadvantages 2)The only disadvantage an Assault has; Its that its not a Logi*.... ''Assaults run out of ammo very quick, they need uplinks, revives and healing, I can assure you that you are wrong.''* Yeah,thats what the logi will be there for... The problem with your argument is that it you are saying that the logi always has the step up from all other suits. What you fail to state is that while the logi may excel in one stat because of modules that never overcomes all of its shortcomings. And for the record any suit can equip another module to overcome its shortcomings. A logi, like any suit, can equip a module and be near the level of another suit, but never on par or beyond if they equiped the same module. The logistics suit is versatile, and so is the assault class - but nobody bitches about it so we are stuck fighting about logis. I cannot believe some of the posts i've been reading. Side arms only? Logis making better assaults?... no just no. I don't deny that many have experience and truly have thought out their arguments but these arguments forget to consider many other perspectives and facts about suit limitations. Assault classes as a whole benefit from greater base stats overall - other than the CPU/PG inherent to the logis. We are speaking to speed, hp (shields & armor), stamina, smaller hitboxes, sidearms, etc. Meaning that all skill increases that affect such values will result in greater benefits than a logi would be able to have. This ensures that at before we even begin building a suit the Assault class is a better foundation. (this was covered in a thread long ago) Putting the same modules on a logi that one puts on an assault will always end up with a better assault - there is no competition with the base stats. A logistics suit can out perform an Assault in some focused instances - building it specifically for one purpose or another, but so can the Assault, but make them equip the same modules and the logi will lose. So, taking different fits and comparing them of course any suit can be comparatively better than another, but never can they be on even ground. The equipment is what sets them apart. And even then the equipment is available to all. There is not logi specific equipment that no other can access and neither are their weapons that only assaults can access. The only question is what will you give to get what you want. Most logis go for defense and sacrifice a great weapon for better equipment - that is not always the case, but it is the logibro way. Assaults could too... but it is counterproductive. They go for the better weapon usually. When a logi goes for a better weapon he will sacrifice equipment, and only have his modules protecting him because every part of him will be less than an Assaults basic birthright. His modules may let him excel in one or two areas but if an assault does the same it will come down to gun game. If he goes for shields his speed, armor and stamina still suck. If he goes for speed it is based of his basic beginning values and takes double the amount it would take for an assault to get the same benefit. We all pay a price. Learn to specialize. That some people were able to learn that what they wanted was best accomplished with a logi only gives credit to their research, and when last I looked at the end of match boards I have only seen logis lead in WP every now and then. Kills still favor the assaults, heavys, and tankers.... So, why again are you complaining OP?
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 442	Posted - 2013.10.25 01:40:00 - [5] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Please give us a decent balance proposal, you couldnt possibly get as much flak as I have so go for it lol I would love to, but I don't believe in all my readings over the many months that I have found one that seem to fit perfectly. But I will give it some thought.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 445	Posted - 2013.10.25 01:55:00 - [6] - Quote Dirks Macker wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Dirks Macker wrote: I use Gal logi quite a bit. I like the equipment fitting bonus, it makes sense with the three slots you get. I was looking at some of the other bonuses and the Amarr armor local rep seems silly. So does the Minmatar hacking bonus. The Caldari shield regulator bonus makes it more of an assault suit. If I could change the bonuses, I would make them: * Gallente: Equipment fitting (stays same) * Amarr: Armor rep amount bonus (like a miniature Guardian - Amarr logi ship in EVE ) * Minmatar: Bonus to remote explosive damage (move hacking bonus to Caldari scout) * Caldari: Bonus to those future portable shield bubbles (making it the choice for medic role) No, your bonuses would preclude alternative equipment, you have locked logis into a specific item. That is unacceptable. Bonuses should be universal in their scope. Gallente: fit, Amarr: repair, Min: hack, Caldari: shields. This is also a comment on the current bonuses. Requireing a suit to use a specific weapon, or module in order to be effective is not a good bonus in my opinion. Gall, ok. Min, ok, but the other bonuses could change - same for the assaults. How do bonuses preclude alternate equipment? My proposal gives each race a small edge in one area, much like bonuses work in EVE. In DUST, you could get an idea as to what an enemy logi has equipped to take advantage of that bonus. An Amarr logi would likely have a repper, Minmatar remote explosives, etc... I think that would add to the experience. To only get a bonus for uses of a specific piece of equipment is how it stops the possibility of using alternate equipment even before we can think about it: preclude. A logi bonus for just explosives? or just bubble shields? that is the target of the commentary. Making bonuses that affect equipment or modules is fine, but these would mean that each fitting already has a called slot when a player makes that fitting. The amarr and cal logi must already equip a module for their race attributes and for some of the assaults they must use particular weapons or recieve no bonus at all. The only time that these types of bonuses are acceptable is when they are commonly fitted and used. The Amarr bonus is ok because a logi would normally fit 1 or more reppers to his person (commonly, not all the time). The Caldari bonus is questionable because there is a larger split between people who use them and people who don't. The Minmatar and Gallente bonuses work right now because no matter what they equip their bonuses are 'ON'. In fact they probably have the best bonuses that I have seen. Granted that the Minmatar is flimsy as hell, but the Gallente is a real decent setup, let us not change what works well already.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 446	Posted - 2013.10.25 02:02:00 - [7] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: The problem with your argument is that it you are saying that the logi always has the step up from all other suits. What you fail to state is that while the logi may excel in one stat because of modules that never overcomes all of its shortcomings. And for the record any suit can equip another module to overcome its shortcomings. A logi, like any suit, can equip a module and be near the level of another suit, but never on par or beyond if they equiped the same module. a Logi can equip 4 Cx Kinetic Catalizers. Now tell me how is a scout going to move THAT fast? The Gal Scout doesnt have the CPU/PG to sustain that (Plus compared to hte Minmatar logi he would only run +0.04 ) The Minmatar logi only has 2 slots. More slots + CPU+ PG= True power. On other notes im not saying Logis with sidearm ONLY and Assault without equipment is the only way to go, i just see how it could balance the game. If people dont like that idea, im always happy to read ideas about the issue. For example. i wouldnt mind a SLOT reduction on Logi suits.....Say -1 slot? I mean they would be at 7 slots (Exept for Cal logi at 8) same as Assaults ; BOTH are Mid frames, the Logi trades Sidearm for more equipment slots. King, thanks for proving my point with your bold lettering. The Logi would be a speed freak but unable to compete with the scouts other basic stats - hitbox, regen, stamina, etc. The logi can take one or two points about another suit and that is all. It then suffers because of its other shortcomings. Though the scout needs some major love regardless.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 449	Posted - 2013.10.25 06:56:00 - [8] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: If something is true about Dust is that all stats are not worth the same. +72 Shields > +25% Shield delay reduction hitbox,regen and stamina, things that you mentioned there?are never going to be better than Hacking,Hp,scanning options and heavy profile dampening.Not to mention the fit i explained previously does NOT lack stamina ;) The logis suit can take More than 1 or 2 points about another suit PLUS they have their OWN points, like innate HP repair? Cheap Equipment fitting?Hacking speed? ANYONE? The Logi suits have No shortcomings ,people that say this are Logis that are scared because they face yet another nerf.I play logi 90% of my time now nad i know that if i feel something is missing in my suit, i can fix it. The fact is, im an ASSAULT/SCOUT player, and for Both purposes,i use Logi suits.... heh.. that is saying something.... Again, thank you King for your comments and speaking directly to the points I've made already. I can appreciate your input, and it doesn't seem like you can see that there are limitations to each logi suit. That may be because they are not important to you, and that is fine - referring to your, "are never going to be better than Hacking,Hp,scanning options and heavy profile dampening". I don't disagree that those are your favorite. It is all in how you see it. I mentioned 1 or 2 points with the inherent limitations in the logi suit, you see only the benefits. I cannot change your view, but need to post another side to the argument. I see the scouts with major shield regeneration and natural speed or the Assaults with beefy stats that lack, seemingly, only in the CPU department. You are right that it is all in how you play - good for you that you do so well - and honestly if a person can't make their suit work they should switch to a role they can appreciate. That you/or others cant see it shows that there is not enough of a differentiation between the classes. Part of it I imagine comes from the inability to assign bonuses to equipment - one reason we do not see equipment skill trees or logi bonuses that deal directly with equipment. To that end also, the other class bonuses are pretty terrible, especially for heavies and scouts.