DUST Search - scrambler rifle question.

Master Jaraiya wrote:

Canari Elphus wrote:

Master Jaraiya wrote:

Actually, I either run a Standard Basic Heavy with 2 Repair or A standard MinLogi with Plate/Repair combo and 2 Basic Shield Extenders, 3 Equipment, Gek. I have Shield and Armor Upgrades at 5.

Meh, Happened to me in my Adv. Heavy with 2 comp. Plates too. This is the reason I started using only standard gear.

You can blame my Suits all you want, fact remains you , me and everyone else knows the Scr Rifles are overpowered, it's why everyone is speccing into them. I see them more than Duvolles now and that's saying something.

Are you talking about SCRs or ASCRs? I will assume SCRs

So what is your total EHP of the suits you are running? Im sorry but saying that you are using two basic shield extenders leads me to believe that its quite low and would get torn to pieces by any weapon. You would have to give me hard data on any of this before I actually believed you.

You would be complaining about TACs as well if the ROF wasnt gimped with a half-azzed mechanic. Compared to the TAC of old, the SCR is a nerf gun. I have prof 4 and always run a damage mod with mine and it still takes me at least one cool down cycle to take out a half decent heavy fit.. If you havent booked it out of there before the weapon cools down or I have switched to my SMG then the death is completely on you.

You act like the overheat feature is the only thing that is a blancing agent for the SCR
- Requires actual aim rather than spamming the fire button
- Has one of the highest fitting costs even as the basic level
- Is biased toward shields
- Annnnnd overheats

EHP on Standard Heavy with 2 Repairers is 1012 506 shield 506 armor

EHP on MinLogi is about 180sih shield 280ish armor. Not sure exactly, would have to log on and check. I run with less HP to have Equipment so I can support my team, you know, what a Logi is meant to do...

LOL at a Heavy "booking it out of there" thats just funny.


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Canari Elphus Pro Hic Immortalis 688	Posted - 2013.10.22 14:08:00 - [1] - Quote Master Jaraiya wrote: Actually, I either run a Standard Basic Heavy with 2 Repair or A standard MinLogi with Plate/Repair combo and 2 Basic Shield Extenders, 3 Equipment, Gek. I have Shield and Armor Upgrades at 5. Meh, Happened to me in my Adv. Heavy with 2 comp. Plates too. This is the reason I started using only standard gear. You can blame my Suits all you want, fact remains you , me and everyone else knows the Scr Rifles are overpowered, it's why everyone is speccing into them. I see them more than Duvolles now and that's saying something. Are you talking about SCRs or ASCRs? I will assume SCRs So what is your total EHP of the suits you are running? Im sorry but saying that you are using two basic shield extenders leads me to believe that its quite low and would get torn to pieces by any weapon. You would have to give me hard data on any of this before I actually believed you. You would be complaining about TACs as well if the ROF wasnt gimped with a half-azzed mechanic. Compared to the TAC of old, the SCR is a nerf gun. I have prof 4 and always run a damage mod with mine and it still takes me at least one cool down cycle to take out a half decent heavy fit.. If you havent booked it out of there before the weapon cools down or I have switched to my SMG then the death is completely on you. You act like the overheat feature is the only thing that is a blancing agent for the SCR - Requires actual aim rather than spamming the fire button - Has one of the highest fitting costs even as the basic level - Is biased toward shields - Annnnnd overheats
Canari Elphus Pro Hic Immortalis 688	Posted - 2013.10.22 15:33:00 - [2] - Quote Master Jaraiya wrote: Canari Elphus wrote: Master Jaraiya wrote: Actually, I either run a Standard Basic Heavy with 2 Repair or A standard MinLogi with Plate/Repair combo and 2 Basic Shield Extenders, 3 Equipment, Gek. I have Shield and Armor Upgrades at 5. Meh, Happened to me in my Adv. Heavy with 2 comp. Plates too. This is the reason I started using only standard gear. You can blame my Suits all you want, fact remains you , me and everyone else knows the Scr Rifles are overpowered, it's why everyone is speccing into them. I see them more than Duvolles now and that's saying something. Are you talking about SCRs or ASCRs? I will assume SCRs So what is your total EHP of the suits you are running? Im sorry but saying that you are using two basic shield extenders leads me to believe that its quite low and would get torn to pieces by any weapon. You would have to give me hard data on any of this before I actually believed you. You would be complaining about TACs as well if the ROF wasnt gimped with a half-azzed mechanic. Compared to the TAC of old, the SCR is a nerf gun. I have prof 4 and always run a damage mod with mine and it still takes me at least one cool down cycle to take out a half decent heavy fit.. If you havent booked it out of there before the weapon cools down or I have switched to my SMG then the death is completely on you. You act like the overheat feature is the only thing that is a blancing agent for the SCR - Requires actual aim rather than spamming the fire button - Has one of the highest fitting costs even as the basic level - Is biased toward shields - Annnnnd overheats EHP on Standard Heavy with 2 Repairers is 1012 506 shield 506 armor EHP on MinLogi is about 180sih shield 280ish armor. Not sure exactly, would have to log on and check. I run with less HP to have Equipment so I can support my team, you know, what a Logi is meant to do... LOL at a Heavy "booking it out of there" thats just funny. Ok, then lets actually apply math to all of this using an ADV SCR which is about 73 base damage Damage modifiers - Proficiency 4 = 12% Complex Dmg Mod = 10% Total ---- 22% increase 73 * 1.22 = 89 base damage Charged shot has a multiplier of 2 so that would put us at 178 damage from the get go. Now, lets add in the bias towards shields. I cant remember if its 120/80 or 130/70 but lets go with 120. 178 * 1.2 = 213 damage against shields for charged shot 89 * 1.2 = 106 damage against shields for standard shot 89 * 0.8 = 71 damage against armor for standard shot Now lets say that the person firing can get off one charged shot and 5 regular shots before overheat Charged Shot 1 - 213 damage (295 shield remaining, 506 armor) Standard Shot 1 - 106 damage (189 shield remaining, 506 armor) Standard Shot 2 - 106 damage (83 shield remaining, 506 armor) Standard Shot 3 - 106 damage (0 shield remaining, 483 armor) used full shield dmg for easier math Standard Shot 4 - 71 damage (0 shield remaining, 412 armor) Standard Shot 5 - 71 damage (0 shield remaining, 341 armor) These six shots can be done in about a second or little more if the person is skilled. Once cooled down (lets say 3 seconds. I cant find the info on the comp) it would take another 5 shots to down the heavy suit. So now lets look at a trained GEK with a damage mod. Correct me if Im wrong but I believe that the base damage of the GEK is around 34 per bullet. Damage modifiers - Proficiency 4 = 12% Complex Dmg Mod = 10% Total ---- 22% increase 34 1.22 = 41.5 base damage The clip holds 60 and can be fired at a rate of 750 RPM (which equates to 12.5 bullets per second). DPS = 41.5 * 12.5 = 518 damage (0 shield remaining, 496 armor) Now, in it would only take 1 more second for the GEK to tear through the remaining amount of armor which would be a faster kill than the SCR. What makes it so the GEK doesnt do that? #1 - Dispersion - The further the weapon user is away from the target, the more misses s/he will get #2 - Tracking - As Rei said, people who spray-n-pray are probably not tracking their target which leads to more missed shots The reason you think the SCR is OP compared to the AR is not because of the weapons themselves but rather the people handling them. Someone using a semi-auto weapon is more likely to line up their shot than one at full auto thus they are more likely to have all of their shots hit as well as have a higher likelihood for a headshot. Also, the semi-auto weapons are more likely to be used by skirmishers than front line slayers. They will be out of your effective range with a HMG or AR and thus seem to have the upper hand while you are engaged.
Canari Elphus Pro Hic Immortalis 690	Posted - 2013.10.22 16:04:00 - [3] - Quote Master Jaraiya wrote: Canari Elphus wrote: a lot of math Which I'm not saying is inaccurate and it looks very nice on paper like that BUT In my Heavy Suit with 506 Shields, 506 armor ONE charged shot takes me down to less than 200 armor, so explain this to me; and if you consider this not to be overpowered you have no business in a balance discussion. Math is fine on paper, but you need to be looking at the performance of the weapon in the game. This is not dungeons and dragons. As Tiberius stated, this is about perception. Given that someone can volley a charged shot and about 2-3 regular shots in about half a second it might just be that you are noticing the depletion with a delay. Also, is this in a strict 1v1 scenario or is there the possibility that you are being engaged by multiple opponents? There has been an instance where I thought I was one shotted by a Militia AR but it was the fact that the AR user was lucky enough to squeeze the trigger the same time as I got head shotted by a Charge Sniper rifle. Without actual data (which CCP wont give us) all of this information is circumstantial and subjective. Also, the reason that some people seem like easy kills for an SCR is that many are still using cheap fits that are still leaning very much toward shield tanking. Lets say you have a 500 EHP Caldari Assault that has 380 Shields and 120 Armor. Without the charged shot you can probably get around 8 shots off. Standard Shot 1 - 106 damage (274 shield remaining, 120 armor) Standard Shot 2 - 106 damage (168 shield remaining, 120 armor) Standard Shot 3 - 106 damage (62 shield remaining, 120 armor) Standard Shot 4 - 106 damage (0 shield remaining, 76 armor) *used full shield dmg for easier math Standard Shot 5 - 71 damage (0 shield remaining, 5 armor) Standard Shot 6 - DEAD Anything less than that as far as EHP and its like tearing through a wet paper bag. And my math does not even account for a headshot bonus to damage.
Canari Elphus Pro Hic Immortalis 690	Posted - 2013.10.22 16:08:00 - [4] - Quote calisk galern wrote: don't blame the thread I just wanted to know if the damage from the SCR had been tested to be accurate against armor as intended. dust has been known to get things wrong, so this could of been one of those cases. I do in fact think the SCR is broken, but I also think the AR is broken as well, I neither care nor complain since I have enough SP to spec into what ever i want and yes once I get my current targets complete I will spec into the SCR as well unless the combat rifle and rail rifle are out by then. Im pretty sure that there is a difference between shield/armor from experience as I have more trouble with gallente, amarr and heavies than with caldari and minnies. However, I am not sure if their math is accurate in terms of carryover damage (when a shot depletes shields and remaining damage goes to armor)
Canari Elphus Pro Hic Immortalis 690	Posted - 2013.10.22 16:28:00 - [5] - Quote Master Jaraiya wrote: Canari Elphus wrote: calisk galern wrote: don't blame the thread I just wanted to know if the damage from the SCR had been tested to be accurate against armor as intended. dust has been known to get things wrong, so this could of been one of those cases. I do in fact think the SCR is broken, but I also think the AR is broken as well, I neither care nor complain since I have enough SP to spec into what ever i want and yes once I get my current targets complete I will spec into the SCR as well unless the combat rifle and rail rifle are out by then. Im pretty sure that there is a difference between shield/armor from experience as I have more trouble with gallente, amarr and heavies than with caldari and minnies. However, I am not sure if their math is accurate in terms of carryover damage (when a shot depletes shields and remaining damage goes to armor) I was thinking this could be where the problem is occurring as well. If the Scr Rifle starts in shields, is it bugged to the effect of the shield bonus carrying over into the damage to armor. Where as if the Scr Rifle starts in armor, it does it's proper damage to armor. It would make sense and probably be the only way you are seeing the damage you are. Lets say its doing 700 damage to your heavy in one shot Working backwards.. Imperial SCR - 79 damage Proficiency 5 + 2 DMG mods ~ 33% (105 damage) Shield Bias 20% (126 damage) Charged Shot x 2 (252 damage) Headshot Bonus x3 (756 damage) *as alluded to by previous poster So, if this is truely the setup for the SCR then yes, that does seem to be OP but the only way that this can be verified is by CCP given the small amount of hard data they give out on weapons/suits/equipment etc.