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Announcement:Factional Contract Changes Introduction

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 14 post(s)
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2887	Posted - 2013.10.18 20:02:00 - [1] - Quote If we're not going to be getting any ISK out of FW, but still need ISK to buy stuff from the loyalty stores, then you are either requiring players to have an income from PC or forcing players to do pub matches. That is terrible, absolutely terrible. I understand you don't want to make FW a progression, where you never return to pub matches. But you can't FORCE us to play pub matches. If all I want to do is play FW all day by choice, I should be able to. Yes that will be solved in the future when we can trade LP for ISK and stuff, but how long will that be? In the meantime it's absolutely not acceptable! Either make items in the loyalty store only cost LP or keep the ISK payout in FW. CCP FoxFour wrote: Panoscape wrote: Once someone totally looses their standings and gets booted out of FW, is there a way for that person to get back in? Could it be like a cool down period of say, a month? Then they get a few standing points so they can turn over a new leaf. But, if they don't then the small size of the gifted standing points will be used up and he'll be kicked out for another month. For now it's a timer, probably around the 24 hour mark. So once kicked from FW they will have to wait 24 hours before being able to get back in. 24 hours is too short, probably needs to be a week. Otherwise that's too easy to grief. Or perhaps have the first time 24 hours, but then an extended amount of time after each repeat offense?
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2899	Posted - 2013.10.18 23:57:00 - [2] - Quote Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: You can win me over, but its tough as nails. I've heard them all, and 95% of the "serious issues" I was warned about last year never materialized when people actually got out and used the system. I'm notorious for disappointing FW people because of this, and not taking your pet issue seriously enough for you to be satisfied.....but I look at the big picture, and the long haul. Data comes in over MONTHS that determines whether these systems are elastic enough or not, if you've decided in the first 2 weeks that the system is broken cause your faction isn't coming back I'm prolly going to just tell you to fight harder. I've literally seen it all and heard it all in the last few years and I am extremely resistant to hyperbole. I can be swayed.....but it takes a lot of hard evidence, and a fair amount of time. Ok, let me sway you. I've took data from nearly 2 months now, one month where Gallente and Minmatar FW were winning 99% to 1% and another where Amarr and Caldari FW were winning 99% to 1%. I think there is something up with this, and this is me saying the faction warfare system is broken even though my team came back and is winning now, so yeah. I've posted exactly what I think is up and why the FW system in broken in numerous threads and a few of my own threads as well, if you didn't see them then I question how well the CPM really listens. Yeah I know you can't see everything that goes on in the forums, but I and some others have literally been spamming this for a couple months now.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2905	Posted - 2013.10.19 02:58:00 - [3] - Quote Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Ok, let me sway you. I've took data from nearly 2 months now, one month where Gallente and Minmatar FW were winning 99% to 1% and another where Amarr and Caldari FW were winning 99% to 1%. I think there is something up with this, and this is me saying the faction warfare system is broken even though my team came back and is winning now, so yeah. I've posted exactly what I think is up and why the FW system in broken in numerous threads and a few of my own threads as well, if you didn't see them then I question how well the CPM really listens. Yeah I know you can't see everything that goes on in the forums, but I and some others have literally been spamming this for a couple months now. Hey now lets get to know each other a bit before we rush to conclusions alright?? FW has changed in a couple of significant ways over the last two months that have created atypical scenarios. And they will change again immediately once these are implemented. I'm not saying there aren't phenomena that need to be studied closely looking at the last couple of months, only that once FoxFour actually delivers these on the server the clock resets and we get to observe a brand new set of data. No need to assume I'm marginalizing your current research, I'd love to chat soon and discuss your findings and the lessons we can learn from them before FoxFour finalizes this latest iteration. I'm not saying you're marginalizing anything All I'm saying is the, "wait and see" approach doesn't quite cut it. Surely with the amount of time Dust has had it's current FW mechanic (pretty much since Uprising) there is some data to observe and draw conclusions for. I like most of what FoxFour is doing with these FW changes, but nothing is addressing the actual ownership of the districts, where battles are fought, who gets to attack and who defend, etc.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2905	Posted - 2013.10.19 03:10:00 - [4] - Quote Ghural wrote: Not rewarding players with ISK for participating in faction warfare means that it will be impossible to have a faction warfare only corp. Unless they buy Aurum Gear only of course. Pay to play now
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2907	Posted - 2013.10.19 14:33:00 - [5] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: No ISK Faction warfare right now will not be a sustainable career on its own. There will be objections to this of course but we are doing it on purpose for some good reasons. There is quite a lot of ISK in dust and not a lot of things to spend the riches on, so items exclusive to FW as well as the progression in FW itself will be the motivation to spend some of that money. When the secondary market comes online (itshappening.gif) faction warfare specialist should be able to maintain it as an exclusive career. The other concern we have though is that faction warfare becomes more profitable in every way, leaving public contracts under populated. We still want to continue working on matchmaking, levels, game modes and rewards for public contracts and with the current dust population having this starved for players would be a negative overall. A healthy dust lifestyle in our mind includes playing a bit of public, FW and PC. This may change as the game grows however and specialising becomes more sustainable. Please look at this whole post. Who are you to tell us what game modes we should play to be considered having a "healthy lifestyle" in Dust? Isn't this supposed to be a sandbox? Your "good reasons" to remove the ISK penalty is punishing people who only do FW with an ISK sink? I am part of a corp that has been focused on FW since it was introduced in EVE. This is all we do. Now you're telling me in order to participate in FW I'm going to have to play pub matches for these randomly selected corps like Blood Raiders and Sansha's Nation? And while I'm fighting for these corps, my faction that I truly care about could be losing a district in FW that I otherwise would of been able to defend? I'm sorry Nullarbor, you're going to have to come up with a lot better reasoning than that. And look, I see your argument of "we still want people playing public matches" and that's great! But you can't FORCE us to play public matches. Why not instead have public matches pay more ISK while FW matches pay less ISK and LP. So basically Public Matches: Lots of ISK payout, no LP payout Faction Warfare: Small, but still there, ISK payout. LP payout. That would give people a reason to play public matches over FW without FORCING people to. FORCE being the key word. And again, as many have said, I'm fine with the removal of ISK from factional contracts if you gave us another way to make ISK that doesn't take time away that I could be spending defending my faction, like a player market where I can sell LP and salvage. But until then, FORCING us to play public matches is absolutely unacceptable.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2907	Posted - 2013.10.19 14:42:00 - [6] - Quote Also in terms of team kills, I know there is no way to tell between an intentional TK and an accidental TK, but it really shouldn't matter. If you are TKing at all you are a liability to your team and should be punished (unless of course you are "TKing" someone who has already TKed to defend yourself"). Yeah it will suck for the person who gets too many accidental TKs and gets suspended from his faction for a long length of time, but that will teach him to be more careful.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2907	Posted - 2013.10.19 15:16:00 - [7] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: As I said we expect specialists will exist in the game, but that won't be sustainable until the player market comes online. Until then we're not compromising on our big picture plan, so you'll need to supplement it with pubs / PC / corp income etc Since when was it a good practice in game development to release something before it was ready? If something won't be sustainable until something else arrives, then it needs to be delayed so they both arrive at the same time. Game development 101. I know you guys are excited about expanding FW as am I, but you can't get ahead of yourselves. As for supplements, I already made my point on pubs and PC is a terribly exclusive party with how few districts there are. Corp income on the other hand really shouldn't even be listed in my opinion, as right now corps have no way to get income aside from PC, which is already listed, and taxing players, which is through pubs and PC, both already listed. But that does bring up a good question, will corp tax apply to LP as well?
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2907	Posted - 2013.10.19 15:36:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: CCP Nullarbor wrote: As I said we expect specialists will exist in the game, but that won't be sustainable until the player market comes online. Until then we're not compromising on our big picture plan, so you'll need to supplement it with pubs / PC / corp income etc Since when was it a good practice in game development to release something before it was ready? If something won't be sustainable until something else arrives, then it needs to be delayed so they both arrive at the same time. Game development 101. I know you guys are excited about expanding FW as am I, but you can't get ahead of yourselves. As for supplements, I already made my point on pubs and PC is a terribly exclusive party with how few districts there are. Corp income on the other hand really shouldn't even be listed in my opinion, as right now corps have no way to get income aside from PC, which is already listed, and taxing players, which is through pubs and PC, both already listed. But that does bring up a good question, will corp tax apply to LP as well? It won't be too far behind, and experience tells me you guys will complain but manage just fine until the player market is rolled out. We could delay FW until everything is ready by that seems like a worse idea. No taxation on LP, corps do not have an LP wallet. You are correct, we'll manage by playing pubs against our will. We won't be happy about it, but we'll do it. Any rough estimate on how far off the player market will be? If it's only 3 months after or so I can probably manage with what ISK I have in my wallet and I'll probably let this issue slide. If it's more along the lines of a year after then not so much.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2911	Posted - 2013.10.19 16:53:00 - [9] - Quote CCP, you should also consider this: Public matches are self sustaining. If you want to only play public matches you can do that. Planetary Conquest is self sustaining. If you want to only play Planetary Conquest you can do that. Faction Warfare is no self sustaining. If you want to only play Faction Warfare you cannot do that. Why do you have to pick on the faction warfare guys? Because being loyal to a faction doesn't fit your idea that we are "mercenaries?" What if I don't want to be a mercenary? This is a sandbox after all.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2911	Posted - 2013.10.19 16:56:00 - [10] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Arrach Sarkal wrote: The sentence about there being a lot of ISK in Dust and FW items being a motivation to spend it is irrelevant as far as the actual issue goes. There being too much ISK in the game is a symptom of the game economy being a farce and arbitrarily punishing dedicated FW players for playing in the sandbox as they want to is not going to help. The issue of having too much ISK is relevant. I know a corp that has a wallet size of at least 1 billion ISK for that corp alone (it's an estimate based on number of shareholders) and that's just outside of EoN. Can you imagine the mountain of ISK that EoN has? A lot. Think of Scrooge McDuck's money bin from Duck Tales. That can have a negative impact on the economy if too much ISK is in circulation at one time. Many of us have constantly asked CCP to implement some kind of ISK sink to alleviate this economic problem and so far the idea of no ISK payouts for FW seems like a novel idea. But as others have mentioned here, we won't know of what the ramifications will be until we see the effects for ourselves. All this speculation about people joining FW in free suits and all is just that... speculation. Except not all of us our EON or play PC. Why should they punish the FW players in order to give PC corps an ISK sink? There's nothing novel about that.

Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2916	Posted - 2013.10.19 17:49:00 - [11] - Quote SHANN da MAN wrote: CCP Nullarbor wrote: Flux grenading your whole team just before a big skirmish is pretty lame though, so we'll keep chewing on that problem. A simple solution to this problem is to implement an IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) system to the Flux Grenades. Say Shields are modulating on a certain frequency range or phase for friendly troops and the flux grenades are programmed to identify these frequencies and not affect them, but affect all the enemy frequencies. That would make sense, and essentially make flux grenades voided in terms of FF. It is sort of the same principle for why you don't stand in enemy nanohives and get ammo.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2916	Posted - 2013.10.19 18:03:00 - [12] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: On one hand I see why people want ISK payouts for FW until there's a market. I evensuggested it myself in Zatara's thread: Everyone gets some ISK, as a sort of advance on fighting, we are mercs, we want some guaranteed money up front. Winners get a lot of LP, losers get less, but the small amount of ISK stays the same just to keep it semi-sustainable. However, as I went through this thread, specifically Odinsons post, it just occurred to me that there is actually an upside to ISK loss in FW. If more advanced players turn to pubs to get ISK like he says, then suddenly we might actually see a drop in protostomping. Wishful thinking, perhaps, but if people start saving their good gear for FW, perhaps the noobs don't get pummeled quite so relentlessly when they leave the academy anymore and player retention rises. Might for once be a positive unintended consequence. Or maybe there will just be more farming, in fact I'm sure there will be, and there's always the PC vets with more ISK than they know what do to with (for now, lol) Regardless, I still see some potential for something good to come from this aspect. I see your view but like I and many others we arent in PC nor did we get 500mill isk from the reset, in total me and my directors hardly have more isk than whats in the corp wallet. And If your like me you easly blow 200k-400k in one battle for your fraction Im only asking for 100k and less payout nothing more. Like I said, I'm good with a small amount of ISK for FW. I'm not in PC either.; I still have a small nest egg from the reset I sit on for a rainy day, but it's nowhere near 500 mil, it's not even 100. But, since I use STD suits or BPOs 95% of the time in pubs it's consistently profitable for me, so I'm less concerned about going broke than I am about Nyain San or whoever running full proto squads and HAVs in pub ambush matches and making new players ragequit, never to return. Except are you aware that these changes will only encourage Nyain San and other to protostomp in public matches, since they won't be making any ISK in FW so won't want to play it?
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2916	Posted - 2013.10.19 18:10:00 - [13] - Quote CCP, it seems as though you are under the impression that the only thing we Dust players care about is getting our currency of sorts. So if we want ISK we do pubs, if we want LP we do faction contracts. You are assuming that there are no players out there that actually care about the outcomes of FW. At least, that's the impression you're giving off to me.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2919	Posted - 2013.10.19 19:21:00 - [14] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Arrach Sarkal wrote: The sentence about there being a lot of ISK in Dust and FW items being a motivation to spend it is irrelevant as far as the actual issue goes. There being too much ISK in the game is a symptom of the game economy being a farce and arbitrarily punishing dedicated FW players for playing in the sandbox as they want to is not going to help. The issue of having too much ISK is relevant. I know a corp that has a wallet size of at least 1 billion ISK for that corp alone (it's an estimate based on number of shareholders) and that's just outside of EoN. Can you imagine the mountain of ISK that EoN has? A lot. Think of Scrooge McDuck's money bin from Duck Tales. That can have a negative impact on the economy if too much ISK is in circulation at one time. Many of us have constantly asked CCP to implement some kind of ISK sink to alleviate this economic problem and so far the idea of no ISK payouts for FW seems like a novel idea. But as others have mentioned here, we won't know of what the ramifications will be until we see the effects for ourselves. All this speculation about people joining FW in free suits and all is just that... speculation. Except not all of us are EON or play PC. Why should they punish the FW players in order to give PC corps an ISK sink? There's nothing novel about that. I don't know about you or how you think, but I don't see this as punishment to FW people at all. We are being rewarded with something far greater than just mere ISK here. We will be given Loyalty Points which will go towards purchasing faction-specific gear. The faction-specific gear is something that can only be acquired (for now) from faction warfare for the side that you choose and they are exactly like the proto-level weapons but with lower CPU/PG requirements which is something a lot of proto folks love to have for their suits (especially us scouts). And unlike the pub matches or PC battles, our rewards and standings grow proportional to the time and effort we put into building our relations with the factions. That alone is something far more rewarding than mere pocket change. If all I am is a mercenary then sure, it's rewarding me because LP points can buy better stuff than plain jane ISK, but I'm not a mercenary, I am a loyalist. I want to fight for my faction and ensure their victory. Since we will be making no ISK, and all items are going to cost some ISK (even the loyalty store items), I am going to have to play pub matches to get that ISK meaning I'm not going to be defending my faction which is like punishment.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2919	Posted - 2013.10.19 20:02:00 - [15] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: I understand that people want ISK for fighting but I think that LP only is good. It creates an opening for player driven content. Corps should be paying their mercs for doing FW and the high cost to individuals is also a good thing. LP only payouts make players create contracts for payment and keeps the riff-raff out of FW because they will be going to win not to get paided for showing up. Public matches should be for profit, FW for your government and PC for glory. No ISK payment creates content by forcing merc to use the community to get paid instead of NPC money printers. I agree, except the mechanics to "use the community to get paid" are not in place yet and CCP somehow thinks it's a bad idea to wait until something is ready before releasing it.