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Tactical ARs > Lasers, Even in Optimal Range

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Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 727	Posted - 2013.10.17 19:31:00 - [1] - Quote First, let's do some math. Let's see the TTK for the Viziam versus a Duvolle Tactical and GLU-5, both with proficiency and a Complex Damage Mod. Suits have 400 shields/400 armor. That's a little more than a Caldari Assault with 2 Complex Shield Extenders and 2 Enhanced Armor Plates with all relative skills maxed, evened out for simplicity. Since the armor and shielding is the same and the efficacy is split evenly (+/- 10 for AR and +/- 20 for Laser), we can now remove them from the equation for now. I used to think the Laser has a RPM of 1000 but cannot find this information anywhere. In my experience, the RPM is closer to 700. Math wrote: Viziam TTK: 800 eHP / (17 damage * 1.15 proficiency * 1.1 damage mod * 700 RPM / 60 seconds) = 3.2 seconds. If the Viziam has a RPM of 1000: Viziam TTK: 800 eHP / (17 damage * 1.15 proficiency * 1.1 damage mod * 1000 RPM / 60 seconds) = 2.2 seconds. Math wrote: GLU-5 Tactical TTK: 800 eHP / (75 damage * 1.15 proficiency * 1.1 damage mod * 400 RPM / 60 seconds) = 1.25 seconds. Duvolle Tactical TTK: 800 eHP / (78.5 damage * 1.15 proficiency * 1.1 damage mod * 400 RPM / 60 seconds) = 1.2 seconds. Either way, that's a massive difference just from swapping from Laser to Tactical. I know, I know; the Laser heats up. Let's say the damage increases by 50% a second; generous, to compensate for non-linear calculations. After one second at 700 RPM you'll take out 300 shields after efficacy (which matters now that the damage isn't stable). 100/400 remains one second in and you're already almost dead. Your damage is 50% higher. The remaining 100 shields will go down in a quarter of a second. Now, you're at 1.25 seconds. Let's forget the fact that you'd already be dead from a GLU-5, with all 800 of your health depleted after barely taking out the enemy's SHIELDS, which fully heal ten seconds later. Remember that armor has a -20% modifier compared to shields, which are +20%. In the remaining .75 seconds you'll take out 225 armor. 2 seconds in and the enemy has 275 armor left. You are now at double damage and it'll take 0.7 seconds to drain the remaining armor. Time to kill? 2.7 seconds. Oh, boy, that extremely generous 50% damage damage boost every second lowered my TTK from 3.2 to 2.7. Meanwhile, the Duvolle Tactical, even after damage drop off, has killed you twice in a row in that time. The GLU-5 has almost identical performance. Now, there is indeed damage drop off. The GLU-5's optimal range ends at 62m and the Laser's starts at 66m and ends at 85m. The GLU-5 deals 30% base at almost 100m. If the drop is linear, then the tac hits 50% efficacy at the end of the Laser's optimal range. At this point, the TTK is 2.5 and the Viziam's is 2.7, after heat. This is at the very last meter of the Laser's optimal range, the biggest advantage a Laser user can have. There are many, many problems with this match up. Let's analyze them. The GLU-5 takes under half the time to kill at the beginning of optimal Laser range. The Laser is dead literally the moment the enemy's shields drop, which are fully recoverable in moments. The GLU-5 takes 10% less time to kill at the very edge of Laser optimal range. This means that the GLU-5 always has a better time to kill, throughout the whole range of the Laser. The Laser can overheat. The GLU-5 has no heat generation to worry about. The Laser must have it's beam over the enemy for the whole duration of the fight in order to hit the (still horrible) TTK of 2.7 seconds. If you are going into cover and out again, your DPS suffers. At the best possible range for the Laser, it takes a second of walking backwards to make the damage of the Laser fall off from 100% to 10%. Obviously, the Laser cannot even kill a single enemy 4 meters our of optimal with several clips of ammo. Yet, the Tactical can still drop you in several seconds at 89m. At the front of optimal range for the Laser, the Tactical can drop you before you remove its shielding. If the Tactical still cannot drop you, all they need to do dash forward 6-7 m and their damage hits 100% while your drops to 80%. At this point, even if they miss half their shots, they're still probably going to kill you. Since you need to hold the beam on the enemy, you can't really use cover. You could hide behind a rock and fire into it to "charge" your DPS, but you better be dead accurate when you strafe out of cover. Plus, while you're in cover all the AR user has to do is dash forward. Plus, if they hide as you first hit them they can come out and pound you since you have 75% of a heat meter and half a clip, which is not enough to kill an AR user dashing at you. You do more damage against shields. Shields drop first. Damage builds up over time. By the time you build up, you've hit armor, and you do 50% more damage to shields than armor. Obviously, this is not completely accurate information. I do not know the EXACT damage build up for the Laser, so I estimated a little above what I've found to be true using it these past weeks. The same is true for the RPM, which was tested to be 700 several months back and seems to be unchanged. Even at 1000 RPM, the Tactical out damages it all the way until the last several meters of the Laser's optimal range. This is also for direct combat. Obviously, if you catch the AR user off guard you can kill them first, especially if you build up your charge before hand. The Laser is still useful when running with a good squad and hanging back, but a Laser user could swap to a Duvolle or GLU-5 Tactical and deal more damage over the Laser's range and still drop people like flies within those 65m that the Laser lacks. It's harder to land all your shots with a Tactical and hit the cap, but the TTK's are comparable enough to render the Laser useless most of the time. Really, the Laser needs a damage and/or optimal span buff to expand its niche.
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 727	Posted - 2013.10.17 20:03:00 - [2] - Quote This post is obviously too long to get any attention.
PEW JACKSON s i n g u l a r i t y 92	Posted - 2013.10.17 20:20:00 - [3] - Quote All it needs is a 15m extension to it's optimal. Maybe 10m expantion(spelling?) with the last 5m to drop down to 10%dmg. I'd like to see dmg scaling with lvl, but I highly doubt that'd happen.
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 729	Posted - 2013.10.17 20:24:00 - [4] - Quote PEW JACKSON wrote: All it needs is a 15m extension to it's optimal. Maybe 10m expantion(spelling?) with the last 5m to drop down to 10%dmg. I'd like to see dmg scaling with lvl, but I highly doubt that'd happen. Exactly my thoughts. Although, it's already hard to find a sight line that is 65m or beyond, anywhere that has cover. Unless you're on a building, in which case you usually get sniped off pretty quickly. I'd love to see the damage increase with weapon tiers and the heat build up reduction be applied to the class skills instead of Amarr Assault. The Amarr Assault can have the cool down bonus.
PEW JACKSON s i n g u l a r i t y 92	Posted - 2013.10.17 20:29:00 - [5] - Quote Imo a better change would be 10% feedback dmg reduction for amarr assault. tweak the numbers for the heat buildup on all the LRs and I think the weap would be sitting in a comfortable place. This way you're not limited to the Amarr assault in terms of dps, but the suit will still have an attractive bonus.
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 732	Posted - 2013.10.17 20:32:00 - [6] - Quote PEW JACKSON wrote: Imo a better change would be 10% feedback dmg reduction for amarr assault. tweak the numbers for the heat buildup on all the LRs and I think the weap would be sitting in a comfortable place. This way you're not limited to the Amarr assault in terms of dps, but the suit will still have an attractive bonus. That would work if I ever actually overheated the Laser. Overheating the Laser takes out hundreds of HP damage and makes you unable to fire until it completely drains. It's a really bad idea to overheat it and a skilled user never will, unless it's to get a killing blow, in which case that 50 damage reduction to feedback isn't going to change anything.
PEW JACKSON s i n g u l a r i t y 92	Posted - 2013.10.17 20:35:00 - [7] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: That would work if I ever actually overheated the Laser. Overheating the Laser takes out hundreds of HP damage and makes you unable to fire until it completely drains. It's a really bad idea to overheat it and a skilled user never will, unless it's to get a killing blow, in which case that 50 damage reduction to feedback isn't going to change anything. Then what about 3% range increase per lvl? LR's would still get the all round range buff and heat tweak, but Amarr would still come out on top. Something about their dropsuit's amplifiers boosting power output.
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1876	Posted - 2013.10.17 20:35:00 - [8] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: This post is obviously too long to get any attention. THe Laser rifle true advantage is not the first kill,but the damage it will do AFTER you got your first kill and your laser is heated. Ive taken out 4 people in a row using the Laser rifle in less than 3 seconds.(with pre heated LR,so 5 people in about 6.5 secs, total 75 ammo)
DeadlyAztec11 Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 2257	Posted - 2013.10.17 20:36:00 - [9] - Quote What you fail to realize, my young gamin, is that at that range, the laser is actually doing more damage than what is posted (damage multiplier). Not only that, the laser does more damage as the gun heats up. I've literally killed proto Heavies before they even had time to react. If you get a headshot, done, so done.
HYENAKILLER X team shinobi 303	Posted - 2013.10.17 20:41:00 - [10] - Quote Didnt even bother to read op. No way in hell. Militia ar beats cheadrons ar np. Militia ar will get you stabbed by a nova knife in any other fight. The laser, preheated and at optimal range is a terrible ending. Ide go with a glu before tac ar un a heartbeat. You are mistaken sir. Sorry

Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 732	Posted - 2013.10.17 20:46:00 - [11] - Quote PEW JACKSON wrote: Then what about 3% range increase per lvl? Yes, that could work. KING CHECKMATE wrote: The Laser rifle true advantage is not the first kill, but the damage it will do AFTER you got your first kill and your laser is heated. Ive taken out 4 people in a row using the Laser rifle in less than 3 seconds.(with pre heated LR,so 5 people in about 6.5 secs, total 75 ammo) This works nicely with the Amarr Assault suit, due to the heat reduction boost. I usually overheat without it after the second guy drops. Killing 4 proto assaults in 3 seconds with the build in the OP would require the Laser to be at over 3 times damage. I'd be interested in knowing exactly how long it takes for the damage to build up. Preheating in a 1 vs 1 usually ends in a smart enemy edging you into hitting maximum heat or having to reload, then charging forward. DeadlyAztec11 wrote: What you fail to realize, my young gamin, is that at that range, the laser is actually doing more damage than what is posted (damage multiplier). Not only that, the laser does more damage as the gun heats up. I've literally killed proto Heavies before they even had time to react. If you get a headshot, done, so done. If you mean shield efficacy, I took that into account. The Laser can kill anything if they are unaware you are there and you preheat, but so can a Tactical AR without waiting three seconds to charge while the enemy is running away. Heavies are easy to take down with anything if you get a head shot; a normal Duvolle can drop a Heavy in around 2 seconds with headshots. Plus, Heavies are way too slow to evade the Laser and their HMGs have horrible range.
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 732	Posted - 2013.10.17 20:50:00 - [12] - Quote HYENAKILLER X wrote: Didnt even bother to read op. No way in hell. Militia ar beats cheadrons ar np. Militia ar will get you stabbed by a nova knife in any other fight. The laser, preheated and at optimal range is a terrible ending. Ide go with a glu before tac ar un a heartbeat. You are mistaken sir. Sorry I couldn't even understand what you were trying to say, sorry. Also, this is about Tactical Assault Rifles, not Militia Assault Rifles. Second, the optimal range of a Laser is exactly 19m long, which is very hard to maintain on most maps. Plus, preheating only really works well against a good proto if the enemy isn't aware you are there and doesn't move out of range/into cover while preheating.
Rogatien Merc Red Star. EoN. 1471	Posted - 2013.10.17 21:18:00 - [13] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: This post is obviously too long to get any attention. so going off the title... I have smacked the ** out of people with a Duvolle TAC plenty. I have had the proto ** smacked out of me with a STD laser rifle plenty (dat heat yo...) ... I don't think there should be much complaining about either of them; they are different weapons with different mechanics so GTFOver it.
Rogatien Merc Red Star. EoN. 1471	Posted - 2013.10.17 21:19:00 - [14] - Quote HYENAKILLER X wrote: Ide go with a glu before tac ar un a heartbeat. cut him off people. somebody gonna call him a cab?
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 1828	Posted - 2013.10.17 21:23:00 - [15] - Quote I skimmed the wall of text, is there any mention of recoil? I didn't spot one.
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1878	Posted - 2013.10.17 21:25:00 - [16] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: This works nicely with the Amarr Assault suit, due to the heat reduction boost. I usually overheat without it after the second guy drops. Killing 4 proto assaults in 3 seconds with the build in the OP would require the Laser to be at over 3 times damage. I'd be interested in knowing exactly how long it takes for the damage to build up. Preheating in a 1 vs 1 usually ends in a smart enemy edging you into hitting maximum heat or having to reload, then charging forward. . I use Amarr Assault ADV, i have level 4 AMarr ssault skills. I use the ELM-7 Prof 3. I use 1 Cx Damage mod. The Laser rifle overheats when around 77-79 ''ammo'' units have been used. I have killed a lot more with only one ''stream'' of laser rifle , but depends on the suits, caldaris & Mataris will fall like flies.... Gallantes are a little sturdier....
Rinzler XVII Forsaken Immortals Top Men. 131	Posted - 2013.10.17 21:43:00 - [17] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: I skimmed the wall of text, is there any mention of recoil? I didn't spot one. Hope you aren't saying that LR's need recoil lol
HYENAKILLER X team shinobi 303	Posted - 2013.10.17 21:47:00 - [18] - Quote Rogatien Merc wrote: HYENAKILLER X wrote: Ide go with a glu before tac ar un a heartbeat. cut him off people. somebody gonna call him a cab? Scope+damage+fire rate=glu>tac ar Do you even math noob?
Garth Mandra The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 165	Posted - 2013.10.18 00:14:00 - [19] - Quote The laser formula is something like: damage = base damage + 0.6 * shots fired (CCP Wolfman said this a long long time ago on IRC and was quoted on the forums) Also you might find this helpful: Weapon Efficiency Graph
Rogatien Merc Red Star. EoN. 1477	Posted - 2013.10.18 00:16:00 - [20] - Quote HYENAKILLER X wrote: Rogatien Merc wrote: HYENAKILLER X wrote: Ide go with a glu before tac ar un a heartbeat. cut him off people. somebody gonna call him a cab? Scope+damage+fire rate=glu>tac ar Do you even math noob? naww bro, I sux @ teh mathz. so a GLU-5 is better than a TAC AR huh? Please explain further

Garth Mandra The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 166	Posted - 2013.10.18 00:18:00 - [21] - Quote The first improvement that I want to see to the laser is a gradual falloff past the optimal rather than the ridiculous drop we have at the moment. Do that and we can see how the laser feels before more changes are made.
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 742	Posted - 2013.10.18 02:39:00 - [22] - Quote Rogatien Merc wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: This post is obviously too long to get any attention. so going off the title... I have smacked the ** out of people with a Duvolle TAC plenty. I have had the proto ** smacked out of me with a STD laser rifle plenty (dat heat yo...) ... I don't think there should be much complaining about either of them; they are different weapons with different mechanics so GTFOver it. I main the Laser and do decently with it. I find it fun so it's not the end of the world if they leave it as it is. There are bigger balance issues, for sure. Also, a lot of Laser users run a STD Laser even on their better suits due to the lack of a damage increase. The heat build up is useful, but I'd still like some rebalancing. I'd take lower damage on the STD and ADV, evening out at Proto level for less of a sharp damage drop off at the end and slightly bigger optimal span.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 880	Posted - 2013.10.18 03:00:00 - [23] - Quote Rogatien Merc wrote: HYENAKILLER X wrote: Rogatien Merc wrote: HYENAKILLER X wrote: Ide go with a glu before tac ar un a heartbeat. cut him off people. somebody gonna call him a cab? Scope+damage+fire rate=glu>tac ar Do you even math noob? naww bro, I sux @ teh mathz. so a GLU-5 is better than a TAC AR huh? Please explain further How has no one pointed out that a GLU-5 is a type of TAC AR? Come on folks. I demand someone troll the purveyor of such foolishness.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3309	Posted - 2013.10.18 03:08:00 - [24] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Rogatien Merc wrote: HYENAKILLER X wrote: Rogatien Merc wrote: HYENAKILLER X wrote: Ide go with a glu before tac ar un a heartbeat. cut him off people. somebody gonna call him a cab? Scope+damage+fire rate=glu>tac ar Do you even math noob? naww bro, I sux @ teh mathz. so a GLU-5 is better than a TAC AR huh? Please explain further How has no one pointed out that a GLU-5 is a type of TAC AR? Come on folks. I demand someone troll the purveyor of such foolishness. Awww mate they're just being so condescending that its going way over his head. Give the troll some space to feed, they need this one.
Rogatien Merc Red Star. EoN. 1483	Posted - 2013.10.18 03:11:00 - [25] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Awww mate they're just being so condescending that its going way over his head. Give the troll some space to feed, they need this one. <3
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 742	Posted - 2013.10.18 03:13:00 - [26] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Rogatien Merc wrote: HYENAKILLER X wrote: Rogatien Merc wrote: HYENAKILLER X wrote: Ide go with a glu before tac ar un a heartbeat. cut him off people. somebody gonna call him a cab? Scope+damage+fire rate=glu>tac ar Do you even math noob? naww bro, I sux @ teh mathz. so a GLU-5 is better than a TAC AR huh? Please explain further How has no one pointed out that a GLU-5 is a type of TAC AR? Come on folks. I demand someone troll the purveyor of such foolishness. I chose not to point it out, since it seemed pointless.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 880	Posted - 2013.10.18 03:30:00 - [27] - Quote lol.
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 743	Posted - 2013.10.18 03:34:00 - [28] - Quote Ah, now I feel like an idiot for writing so much about a gun that actually isn't that bad.


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