DUST Search - Are you good enough to radar tank? How useful/viable would it really be?

Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:

Ignoble Son wrote:

Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:

Ignoble Son wrote:

[quote=Cyrius Li-Moody]You can get a gallente proto scout to have a scan radius of 68m w/ a precision of 32.4 and still fit a duvolle specialist shotgun, core flaylock, remotes, and a complex plate with your skills up. EHP of 398.

Definitely a fit for wanting to be sneaky and not have people get the "you have been scanned" message. Maybe useful for ninjaing objectives.

What's the eHP/sprint speed on that suit?

Sprint is 7.25 / eHP 398

~400 ehp is doable as a scout. My adv Minmatar scout has less than that. You just have to very particular about your engagements. Sprint leaves more to be desired but considering you would be avoiding most direct fights not a big deal. Lay traps with you explosives or wait until you have the advantage.

400 eHP
7.25 ss (really low for that amount of hp)
And what... Around 150k ISK?

"radar" tanking with the current meta is kind of pointless as eHP and DPS suits are kings of the battlefield right now.

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Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 320	Posted - 2013.10.15 19:15:00 - [1] - Quote "The numbers" (all numbers are assumed to be max skill and complex mods): Dampening: Light frame profile: No mod:-á30.37 One mod:-á22.78 Two mods:17.83 Three mods: 15.28 Medium frame profile: No mod: 45 One mod 33.75 Two mods: 26.42 Three Mods: 22.64 Scan precision (light frame not considered): Logi: No mod:45 One mod: 36 Two mods: 29.73 Three mods: 26.34 Assault: No mods: 49.5 One mod: 39.6 Two mods: 32.7 Three mods: 28.98 Scan Range (same for all suit types - Gallente light not considered): No mod: 15m One mod:-á21.75m Two mods: 30.25 Three mods: 37.99 Combat effectiveness: (only the Gallente logi and assault will be considered, because I don't feel like running the numbers and playing with firings for the others; but, if you like, you are more than welcome to post fitting and numbers in this thread if I like them I may add the to the OP). Gal adv assault standard fitting: 2x comp light damage mod (150 hp shield) (scan precision: 49.5) (damage output:-á49.08 hp/round Gek-38 Toxin SMG Locus grenade Compact nano Comp repair mod (6.25hp/sec) Basic armor plate Comp armor plate (armor: 504 hp) (Scan Range: 15m) Gal adv assault radar tank fitting: 2x comp precision enhancer (shield: 150 hp) (scan precision: 32.7) (damage output: 41.05 hp/round) Gek-38 Toxin SMG M1 locus grenade Compact nano 2x comp range amplifier (scan range: 30.25m) Comp armor plate (armor: 411 hp) (armor repair rate: 0 hp/sec) So there are some pretty big differences between these two builds (We will not consider a logi build; it will be seen to be comparable).-á Pros: 1. can see medium and heavy frames as long if they are wearing one or less profile dampeners (and really how many mediums and heavies are going to wear more than one) 2. Slightly more than double the base range. You will always be able to dictate the terms of engagement 3. Can provide better/continuous intel to your squad.-á Cons: 1. Severely decreased dps. It is going to be a lot more difficult to put enemies down. 2. Moderately decreased hp. You can now be brought down quite a bit easier. 3. No native armor repair. Once you compact nano is gone you will have to rely on the kindness of strangers. This could go very bad for you, often. 4. Still can't see scout no matter what. As you should clearly be able to see the con out weight pros by quite a bit. now you may be thinking "why don't you just exchange one of the range amplifiers for a comp repair mod. If we did that we would be missing out on the largest portion of range increase. The first mod gives us an increase of 6.75m the. second mod gives us an increase of 8.5m. I think that doubling the base range is worth running these mods, but that a mere 6.75m increase is not worth running even a single mod (there is A LOT of square footage in that next 8.5m). One also might be thinking "if you set this build up on a proto suit you could have a damage mod, a armor repair mod and a Duvolle ". But can one really justify bringing such an ill equipped and expensive (roughly 150k ISK) proto suit to battle? I propose that we make personal scanning mod a more viable fittings option, and the following is my proposal: Range amplifiers: In addition to increasing scan range they also the optimal range of your weapon and damage at absolute range. For instance: Basic to comp: Scan range increase: 25%, 35%, 45% Optimal range increase: 2%, 4%, 6% Absolute range damage increase: 2%, 4%, 6% Precision enhancers: In addition to increasing your scan precision, the also increase the accuracy of the weapon that is equipped to your light or heavy slot. For instance: Basic to comp: Scan precision increase 10%, 15%, 20% Weapon accuracy increase: 2%, 4%, 6% So, these numbers are arbitrary of course and would need to tested. I think that this would be a great way to breath some life into the use of these modules, by the community. If you feel that you may have some better ideas to breath life into these modules, then by all means post your ideas in this thread. If I like them I may add them to the OP (or if you simply disagree please post). Thank you for reading.
Keri Starlight Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 841	Posted - 2013.10.15 19:31:00 - [2] - Quote Interesting reading. I always like detailed threads supported by numbers. But... to answer the thread title: No, I'm not good enough to do it. I wouldn't even consider doing that. I would feel naked running around without reppers and just 1 plate...
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 321	Posted - 2013.10.15 20:15:00 - [3] - Quote Keri Starlight wrote: Interesting reading. I always like detailed threads supported by numbers. well thankyou. I apriciate your apriciation of my meticulousness.
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws 1305	Posted - 2013.10.15 20:27:00 - [4] - Quote You can get a gallente proto scout to have a scan radius of 68m w/ a precision of 32.4 and still fit a duvolle specialist shotgun, core flaylock, remotes, and a complex plate with your skills up.
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 321	Posted - 2013.10.15 20:32:00 - [5] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: You can get a gallente proto scout to have a scan radius of 68m w/ a precision of 32.4 and still fit a duvolle specialist shotgun, core flaylock, remotes, and a complex plate with your skills up. EHP of 398. Definitely a fit for wanting to be sneaky and not have people get the "you have been scanned" message. Maybe useful for ninjaing objectives. What's the eHP/sprint speed on that suit?
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws 1305	Posted - 2013.10.15 20:51:00 - [6] - Quote Ignoble Son wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: You can get a gallente proto scout to have a scan radius of 68m w/ a precision of 32.4 and still fit a duvolle specialist shotgun, core flaylock, remotes, and a complex plate with your skills up. EHP of 398. Definitely a fit for wanting to be sneaky and not have people get the "you have been scanned" message. Maybe useful for ninjaing objectives. What's the eHP/sprint speed on that suit? Sprint is 7.25 / eHP 398 ~400 ehp is doable as a scout. My adv Minmatar scout has less than that. You just have to very particular about your engagements. Sprint leaves more to be desired but considering you would be avoiding most direct fights not a big deal. Lay traps with you explosives or wait until you have the advantage.
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 322	Posted - 2013.10.15 20:59:00 - [7] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Ignoble Son wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: You can get a gallente proto scout to have a scan radius of 68m w/ a precision of 32.4 and still fit a duvolle specialist shotgun, core flaylock, remotes, and a complex plate with your skills up. EHP of 398. Definitely a fit for wanting to be sneaky and not have people get the "you have been scanned" message. Maybe useful for ninjaing objectives. What's the eHP/sprint speed on that suit? Sprint is 7.25 / eHP 398 ~400 ehp is doable as a scout. My adv Minmatar scout has less than that. You just have to very particular about your engagements. Sprint leaves more to be desired but considering you would be avoiding most direct fights not a big deal. Lay traps with you explosives or wait until you have the advantage. 400 eHP 7.25 ss (really low for that amount of hp) And what... Around 150k ISK? Nd you are comfortable with bringing this suit to battle against other proto suits?
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws 1305	Posted - 2013.10.15 21:05:00 - [8] - Quote Ignoble Son wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Ignoble Son wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: You can get a gallente proto scout to have a scan radius of 68m w/ a precision of 32.4 and still fit a duvolle specialist shotgun, core flaylock, remotes, and a complex plate with your skills up. EHP of 398. Definitely a fit for wanting to be sneaky and not have people get the "you have been scanned" message. Maybe useful for ninjaing objectives. What's the eHP/sprint speed on that suit? Sprint is 7.25 / eHP 398 ~400 ehp is doable as a scout. My adv Minmatar scout has less than that. You just have to very particular about your engagements. Sprint leaves more to be desired but considering you would be avoiding most direct fights not a big deal. Lay traps with you explosives or wait until you have the advantage. 400 eHP 7.25 ss (really low for that amount of hp) And what... Around 150k ISK? Nd you are comfortable with bringing this suit to battle against other proto suits? I by no means recommend this fit, but just stating it's doable. "radar" tanking with the current meta is kind of pointless as eHP and DPS suits are kings of the battlefield right now.
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 322	Posted - 2013.10.15 21:13:00 - [9] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Ignoble Son wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Ignoble Son wrote: [quote=Cyrius Li-Moody]You can get a gallente proto scout to have a scan radius of 68m w/ a precision of 32.4 and still fit a duvolle specialist shotgun, core flaylock, remotes, and a complex plate with your skills up. EHP of 398. Definitely a fit for wanting to be sneaky and not have people get the "you have been scanned" message. Maybe useful for ninjaing objectives. What's the eHP/sprint speed on that suit? Sprint is 7.25 / eHP 398 ~400 ehp is doable as a scout. My adv Minmatar scout has less than that. You just have to very particular about your engagements. Sprint leaves more to be desired but considering you would be avoiding most direct fights not a big deal. Lay traps with you explosives or wait until you have the advantage. 400 eHP 7.25 ss (really low for that amount of hp) And what... Around 150k ISK? "radar" tanking with the current meta is kind of pointless as eHP and DPS suits are kings of the battlefield right now. Thus the reason I have created this thread. To discuss potential ways of making radar tanking viable. Otherwise it is just useless junk that is doing nothing but taking up space.
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 322	Posted - 2013.10.16 00:25:00 - [10] - Quote Shameless bump.

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 4489	Posted - 2013.10.16 01:08:00 - [11] - Quote I have an alt that's baking in the oven right now and have trained it to utilize as much scan range amplifying as possible. After running the numbers and testing out the fittings, you can see up to at least 60m with enhanced range amplifiers on a proto Gallente scout suit. 99m with all four complex range amplifiers on the same suit.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 4489	Posted - 2013.10.16 01:13:00 - [12] - Quote The current problem is the scan precision on the proto Gallente scout. Only one high slot which means the most of the dots that show up on the mini map will be medium frames and heavy frames while scouts still have the advantage. Of course this also means other scouts won't see you either.
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 1265	Posted - 2013.10.16 01:34:00 - [13] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: You can get a gallente proto scout to have a scan radius of 68m w/ a precision of 32.4 and still fit a duvolle specialist shotgun, core flaylock, remotes, and a complex plate with your skills up. EHP of 398. Woah Suddenly considering doing this...
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 323	Posted - 2013.10.16 01:36:00 - [14] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: The current problem is the scan precision on the proto Gallente scout. Only one high slot which means the most of the dots that show up on the mini map will be medium frames and heavy frames while scouts still have the advantage. Of course this also means other scouts won't see you either. it is interesting that you are attempting this build. The theme of this thread is that scan mods are UP. Do you disagree with this? If you agree, do you have any ideas about how they can be made better? What did you think about the ideas I put forth?
Medic 1879 Forsaken Immortals Top Men. 1135	Posted - 2013.10.16 01:40:00 - [15] - Quote I think it would be easier, more efficient and cheaper just to carry an active scanner.
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 323	Posted - 2013.10.16 01:51:00 - [16] - Quote ^^^ the difference is continuity and the availability of an equipment slot. No weapon swap. Always scanning 360 degrees. I think this has a viable role to play.
Medic 1879 Forsaken Immortals Top Men. 1136	Posted - 2013.10.16 02:03:00 - [17] - Quote It could work for a lone wolfer but correct me if I am wrong passive scanning is not shared with your squad just active. To get this kind of scan radius though your sacrificing an awful lot of survivability in the form of DPS and eHP. It could work for a scout (Gal in particular) but the first sniper to spot you or if that guy your stalking turns round and fires say 4-5 shots from his duvolle at you its time to respawn. Its a good idea to show how bad passive scanning is at the moment though.
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 323	Posted - 2013.10.16 02:25:00 - [18] - Quote Medic 1879 wrote: It could work for a lone wolfer but correct me if I am wrong passive scanning is not shared with your squad just active. Not necessarily true. You should be able to provide a great deal of intel to your squad verbally. {edit>>> especially if you are squad lead with a several medium frames following close by.
Medic 1879 Forsaken Immortals Top Men. 1136	Posted - 2013.10.16 02:36:00 - [19] - Quote Ignoble Son wrote: Medic 1879 wrote: It could work for a lone wolfer but correct me if I am wrong passive scanning is not shared with your squad just active. Not necessarily true. You should be able to provide a great deal of intel to your squad verbally. {edit>>> especially if you are squad lead with a several medium frames following close by. Yeah but me going, there is a dude hiding behind a crate near C isn't quite as good as a flashing reddot on their map handily pointing him out and which way he is facing. Its useful for stealth reconnaissance (no giant YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED RUN FOOL! messages) just to give numbers and rough locations and hiding nearby and directing your team but having your intel verbally and visually would be so much better, which is why scout passive scan's should be squad shared to give the scout a stealth scanning role.
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 323	Posted - 2013.10.16 02:47:00 - [20] - Quote Medic 1879 wrote: Ignoble Son wrote: Medic 1879 wrote: It could work for a lone wolfer but correct me if I am wrong passive scanning is not shared with your squad just active. Not necessarily true. You should be able to provide a great deal of intel to your squad verbally. {edit>>> especially if you are squad lead with a several medium frames following close by. Yeah but me going, there is a dude hiding behind a crate near C isn't quite as good as a flashing reddot on their map handily pointing him out and which way he is facing. Its useful for stealth reconnaissance (no giant YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED RUN FOOL! messages) just to give numbers and rough locations and hiding nearby and directing your team but having your intel verbally and visually would be so much better, which is why scout passive scan's should be squad shared to give the scout a stealth scanning role. "true, but I have already adressed the pros and cons of active vs. passive. If your squad stays hot on your heels (like a pack of hunters following a blood hound) there shouldn't be a problem. Most verble intel should be if any enemies are spotted behind or on the flanks of your squad position. Or in what direction the squad should be looking to. As well, do not forget, this thread is to discuss the UPness of scanning mods not to validate their use. Do you have any ideas about how to make them viable? What did you think of the ideas I presented?

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 4490	Posted - 2013.10.16 03:24:00 - [21] - Quote Based on my observation, the scanning mods (if you're talking about precision scanners) are exactly where they are in general. They are not underpowered in my opinion and they are not overpowering the active scanners' role. The only downside however is the proto Gallente scout. That one high slot is too restricting.
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1803	Posted - 2013.10.16 03:32:00 - [22] - Quote I like this Radar tanks. Scouts have it too easy as it is...
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 324	Posted - 2013.10.16 03:37:00 - [23] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Based on my observation, the scanning mods (if you're talking about precision scanners) are exactly where they are in general. They are not underpowered in my opinion and they are not overpowering the active scanners' role. The only downside however is the proto Gallente scout. That one high slot is too restricting. Well we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think that they provide enough benifit for what must be sacrifice in order to use them.
Rogatien Merc Red Star. EoN. 1455	Posted - 2013.10.16 03:39:00 - [24] - Quote I think I would definitely prefer the Gal Scout build due to the enhanced scan range. Whoever said current meta doesn't favor this... I in your general direction. This is a niche fit designed to be a super ninja, not farm kills. It lets you pick people off quickly before they can even see you and without alerting them that you are within 100m. Knowing the whereabouts of enemies and the direction they are facing along your approach vector and escape routes.... I see that as hugely beneficial for an 'assassin' scout. Additional benefit is that in the fast and furious CQC game, your passive will constantly refresh your radar in those moments where an active scanner would be 100% useless due to brand new spawn-ins behind you as you are jumping around for your life...
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 324	Posted - 2013.10.16 03:48:00 - [25] - Quote Rogatien Merc wrote: I think I would definitely prefer the Gal Scout build due to the enhanced scan range. Whoever said current meta doesn't favor this... I in your general direction. This is a niche fit designed to be a super ninja, not farm kills. It lets you pick people off quickly before they can even see you and without alerting them that you are within 100m. Knowing the whereabouts of enemies and the direction they are facing along your approach vector and escape routes.... I see that as hugely beneficial for an 'assassin' scout. Additional benefit is that in the fast and furious CQC game, your passive will constantly refresh your radar in those moments where an active scanner would be 100% useless due to brand new spawn-ins behind you as you are jumping around for your life... Then you approve of my proposals? I am a little confused on that point.


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