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Borne Velvalor
BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY
709
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Posted - 2013.10.16 11:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
meri jin wrote:Well Ladies the time has come, WE, the almighty community have found something new to ***** and moan about.
Get ready to contribute your share on this in the various crying postings about the AR, or even start your own. But before you start let me show you how not to be "that guy".
Reading a couple of postings I couldn't shake the feeling that some of this posts starts like this: Guy 1 is getting his ass ripped and runs with tears in his eyes in the forum.
OMG I'm using a HMG right? A HEAAAAAVY machine gun and this douvole what ever guy is keep killing me!
wtf?! I should be the one winning! I'm the one using a HMG here, and the what is this X in the weapon Icon anyway?
Well, my first thought was: what the hell is this guy using against a prototype weapon, meta 1? Is he really trying to kill someone using a low level suit? Because the one with the proto is probably wearing minimum advanced suits. How did he approach? Was he standing still? Well we will ever know since he did no tell us. If I fight against a advanced heavy and he is full HP, I would die. And I'm using advanced gear.
Another guy can't overcome the feeling that he is not the best in this game and is seeing the posting from guy 1 and jups in:
I can believe that a AR killed me while I was using a LASOOOR, isn't it obvious that a laser should be the most powerful weapon!? Especially when I am holding it? He killed me in my optimal range *sob*, that is so unfair *sob*! He killed me in a Second! *starts crying*
Again, how are they equipped? Did he approach? Was his opponent a vet? Maybe 15mil+ SP? Maybe he was very skillful, maybe the laser-using-op is a moron? What equipment did they use? Killed in a second? That never happened to me, maybe I should try a prototype weapon, but I highly doubt It would be strong enough. Who knows, may be this guy was running around in militia? And his opponent was skilled out and wearing dmg mods? Did he even knew how to use a laser? That it is not a burst dmg weapon? We will never know. But some one should tell him that the laser become ineffective against armor.
What I'm trying to tell you is to be more realistic. Some of you know CCP Shanghai, and you know that balancing is not one of their ... lets say "best-known" skills. TAC AR anyone? No? I heaved used it since CCP "revisit" it. It nearly disappear. One more thing so keep in mind is that the AR is not the finish product, It's a placeholder for weapons and mechanics we will hopefully see someday. (I'm not even trying to troll here)
I'm stepping farther and farther away from this game every day. No joke, I still play the same amount of time, but no longer Dust. This neutral distance shows me more and more stupidity that happen here in the forums, not only on balance or in this case AR topics.
Have fun, I need a new cup of coffee.
How cute. I guess you never read any posts like mine, because I use this thing called math.
A Duvolle with proficiency and 2 Complex Damage Mods does over 600 damage a second. This is enough to kill most suits in slightly longer than a second and really bricked suits in a whole second and a half. Yes, because a second and a half is a long time to hold the trigger to kill the most heavily bricked proto assault. Against a Heavy, it's pretty easy for a build like that to headshot him and do 900 damage a second to his shields and 1000 damage a second to his armor. Yes, that's right folks, a Duvolle with proficiency and two Complex Damage Mods can drop the best tanked Heavy on the planet in less than two seconds. From 40m away. Meanwhile, 50-70% of your bullets will be whizzing by him and you will be completely unable to get headshots in return. Heavies do much more damage with Assault Rifles than actual Heavy Machine guns at medium range and similar damage at CQC, excluding the Burst.
As for the Laser Rifle, the Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle does double the base damage of a Viziam at optimal Laser range if they can hit the fire cap. Obviously, it can be difficult to land all of your shots and hit the cap. However, Laser Rifles have half a dozen problems outlined in my previous post, such as a 20m optimal span that drops from 120% damage to 12% damage when the enemy walks backwards for less than a second and more. It's very easy to break out of the optimal range of a Laser while simultaneously increasing your damage until you're doing three times as much damage.
Getting shot at by a Laser? Hide behind a crate. If they stop firing, their damage bonus is gone. If they don't, you can charge them while they cool down and tear them apart. They do have a nice bonus against shield damage but in return do almost nothing against armor. Half the damage with a proto Laser Rifle in optimal range against armor than a militia assault rifle? Yes please, that sounds tasty. Not. Especially considering the Militia Assault Rifle has almost twice the optimal range span.
Really, most enemies are idiots and have very little concept of tactics, so the Laser does decently in pubs. They just sit there and get burned, not moving much. In everything else, you'll be the laughing stock. You'll probably get the nickname "assist machine."
Really, Assault Rifles are not overpowered so much as the other guns need their niches to be amplified, because they are far too situational. |
Borne Velvalor
BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY
713
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Posted - 2013.10.16 12:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
meri jin wrote:Duvolle is not a weapon, it is the prototype of a weapon.
How about you folks stop to take the Duvolle and compare your weapon? Not everyone is using a Duvolle. This gun is extremely expensive, it costs more then two full advanced fittings.
I'm using a GEK, and I never droped a "in a few seconds" it is always a a hard fight. And not everyone is pumped with dmg mods, I cant even use them.
It's easiest to calculate for proto gear when everyone competitive uses it. Also, I see Duvolles all night long and killed Duvolles all last night. My god I saw half a dozen Thales, at least. I can say with confidence that during the hours leading up to down time, I often see more Duvolles than GEKs. Half the time I die or more I see their equipment and they're running full proto.
My suit I use to fight these Duvolles costs a whole 10k. The whole thing. Barely more than 500 health and a STD Laser and SMG. So, I know what you mean by not everyone uses proto. The average advanced Sentinel probably has around 900 total health after level 3/2 core armor and shielding. Add 300 health in plates and that's 1200. Without damage mods and maybe level 3 proficiency, your GEK is doing 700 to shields and 800 to armor a second to the head. So, you could drop an ADV Heavy with your ADV gear in a little under 2 seconds of headshots. Your armor is not going to be nearly as good as a proto suit, though. Complex Shield Extenders offer double the shields of enhanced and Complex Armor Plates have around 50% more armor than enhanced. Heavies have more innate HP and from core skills than other suits, which get their majority from extenders/plating. So, it's harder for you to kill a Heavy without dieing of the same tier than a full proto. Still, a few seconds of head shots isn't very hard. I've killed ADV heavies in CQC with my STD SMG. It only takes about three seconds of head shots. Catch them off guard, ADS on head, hold trigger. :L |
Borne Velvalor
BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY
713
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Posted - 2013.10.16 12:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
Justice Prevails wrote:Sorry, I don't see how the ar is always winning.. Maybe I suck but as an AR user I have to:
Close the the gap through cover to do any damage to laser rifle or md user. Try to use glu maybe but still outranged.
Gain distance or find cover against a heavy, never head to head unless he is beat up already.
Catch a shotgunner at distance or switch to smg up close. Might be different if I use breach ar.
SCRs absolutely kick my a**.
I have ar prof at 5 and sharpshooter at 4.
Now speccing into AR might give me more choices with varying ranges. But that might be different once all weapons are in game.
Versatility is the AR user's only advantage. That and our good looks:)
For the Laser, the flaws appear mostly at proto level because the Laser doesn't deal any extra damage. As an Assault Rifle user, you just need to hide behind cover as soon as the Laser hits. Note the direction it came from and run away so that the cover blocks you. I almost never die to Snipers or Lasers doing this. If the Laser is not on a building, edge out and in so that they fire at you. You want some of the shots to hit. When they stop firing run forward and spray them down because it means they are at least half way down their heat meter. The closer you get, the less damage they do. This happens to me all the time, since if I don't get a direct bead on them for a long period of time, my damage is poor.
Mass Drivers are hard to avoid. Within optimal range, their DPS isn't very high and most Assault Rifles can double or triple the splash damage DPS. It's easiest to take them out towards the edge of your optimal range, as many more of their shots will miss.
Scramblers have very similar DPS to Assault Rifles with slightly longer ranges, but are harder to use. If they miss the first burst and you have decent health, they'll often overheat before they can kill you. The Assault Scrambler is actually very potent and a worthwhile competitor with Assault Rifles that isn't too hard to use. Treat it like an Assault Rifle, pretty much. It doesn't usually overheat, so that's not really exploitable. |
Borne Velvalor
BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY
714
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Posted - 2013.10.16 13:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Justice Prevails wrote:Borne Velvalor wrote:Justice Prevails wrote:Sorry, I don't see how the ar is always winning.. Maybe I suck but as an AR user I have to:
Close the the gap through cover to do any damage to laser rifle or md user. Try to use glu maybe but still outranged.
Gain distance or find cover against a heavy, never head to head unless he is beat up already.
Catch a shotgunner at distance or switch to smg up close. Might be different if I use breach ar.
SCRs absolutely kick my a**.
I have ar prof at 5 and sharpshooter at 4.
Now speccing into AR might give me more choices with varying ranges. But that might be different once all weapons are in game.
Versatility is the AR user's only advantage. That and our good looks:) For the Laser, the flaws appear mostly at proto level because the Laser doesn't deal any extra damage. As an Assault Rifle user, you just need to hide behind cover as soon as the Laser hits. Note the direction it came from and run away so that the cover blocks you. I almost never die to Snipers or Lasers doing this. If the Laser is not on a building, edge out and in so that they fire at you. You want some of the shots to hit. When they stop firing run forward and spray them down because it means they are at least half way down their heat meter. The closer you get, the less damage they do. This happens to me all the time, since if I don't get a direct bead on them for a long period of time, my damage is poor. Mass Drivers are hard to avoid. Within optimal range, their DPS isn't very high and most Assault Rifles can double or triple the splash damage DPS. It's easiest to take them out towards the edge of your optimal range, as many more of their shots will miss. Scramblers have very similar DPS to Assault Rifles with slightly longer ranges, but are harder to use. If they miss the first burst and you have decent health, they'll often overheat before they can kill you. The Assault Scrambler is actually very potent and a worthwhile competitor with Assault Rifles that isn't too hard to use. Treat it like an Assault Rifle, pretty much. It doesn't usually overheat, so that's not really exploitable. Was just trying to point out that the AR is not OP because you still have to use tactics to be successful.
Indeed you do. It's easy enough to gain the upper hand with the Assault Rifle's flexibility against most weapons, though. Aside from Scramblers, it doesn't have much competition for assaulting anyways since most other weapons have different roles. |
Borne Velvalor
BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY
726
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Posted - 2013.10.17 04:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:In my opinion those that are hating on the assault rifle/scrambler rifle fall into these categories
1. Bunny hopping frontline massdriver users that don't understand the concept of area of denial and can no longer rely on broken hit detection and op splash damage. Working as intended.
2. Frontline Scouts that can no longer rely on broken hit detection. Working as intended.
3. Shotgun users that legitimately have issues with hit detection that should be corrected. Broken please fix.
3. Heavies realizing that Heavy Machine Gun damage and range desperately needs attention. Majority of heavies are flying up on a tower/rooftop/pipeline and spamming forge blasts because they cant compete on the ground. Broken please fix.
Right now your choices for light weapons are
Assault Rifle/Scrambler Rifle -- Both melt infantry
Swarm Launcher/Plasma Cannon -- Both garbage vs infantry
Laser Rifle -- Back up and use damage mods -- melts infantry
Sniper Rifle -- Back up and use damage mods -- melts infantry
Shotgun -- Broken hit detection needs fixing
Mass Driver -- Back up and keep infantry from rushing so your Frontline Assault/Scramblers can melt them while shotguns flank.
Hmg -- underpowered for such a huge hitbox -- without a capable logi be ready to die alot.
I am just having a hard time feeling bad for mass driver users that think nothing should kill them. Hmgs and Shotguns need love, but everything else is in it's place, don't spec into an area of denial weapon and expect the frontlines to be forgiving. I don't expect to run across an open area without snipers/lasers/forges or massdrivers picking me off. I wouldn't spec into lasers and run up to the frontlines to hack points. Know your roles. This is just my opinion and I am sure every mass driver user will disagree, but splash damage is no longer king. All hail the headshot.
This is a fair analysis.
I would just point out as a Laser user that while the gun works well at STD level competition, its lack of any damage upgrades at proto level makes Viziam completely out damaged by the Duvolle Tactical, even at optimal range. The Duvolle will easily be pumping out 50% more damage (two times the damage, actually, when not accounting for efficacy modifiers and not hitting the fire cap) within Laser optimal range. The Laser heats up and starts doing the same or more damage about the time he's dead.
If the Laser tries to go into cover the modifier is lost, so his damage will drop like a rock and the Duvolle can rush into optimal, which allows him to easily pump out 80% more DPS. If the Duvolle hides in cover, once again, the Laser's modifier is lost.
The problem with the Laser, and why so many do not use cover and stand next to it and die, is because they are dealing half optimal AR damage if they don't heat up. You HAVE to keep it on them to kill them, meaning you have to always have a bead on them, which means they always have a bead on you, which means you die before you heat up.
EDIT: Also, you CAN somewhat negate this as a Laser user by firing half your clip into your cover and then strafing outwards, nailing them. Of course, if the enemy goes into cover as you come out of it, you'll lose a full mag, have to reload, and have 80% of your heat bar filled. So, half the time this just lets the AR charge and slaughter you. |
Borne Velvalor
BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY
727
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Posted - 2013.10.17 04:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
Michael Arck wrote:I got killed by a Duvolle Tac today. Haven't seen those in use for a while...
I see far more standard Duvolle's. I run Laser, however, so I occasionally have players swap to Tacticals for the range, which is hard to handle. My optimal starts only 5m out of theirs. If I'm at the end of my optimal I can kill them more easily, but then they just back up 5m and I'm doing 12% damage. |
Borne Velvalor
BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY
727
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Posted - 2013.10.17 18:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
meri jin wrote:Borne Velvalor wrote:It's easiest to calculate for proto gear when everyone competitive uses it. Also, I see Duvolles all night long and killed Duvolles all last night. My god I saw half a dozen Thales, at least. I can say with confidence that during the hours leading up to down time, I often see more Duvolles than GEKs. Half the time I die or more I see their equipment and they're running full proto.
My suit I use to fight these Duvolles costs a whole 10k. The whole thing. Barely more than 500 health and a STD Laser and SMG. So, I know what you mean by not everyone uses proto. The average advanced Sentinel probably has around 900 total health after level 3/2 core armor and shielding. Add 300 health in plates and that's 1200. Without damage mods and maybe level 3 proficiency, your GEK is doing 700 to shields and 800 to armor a second to the head. So, you could drop an ADV Heavy with your ADV gear in a little under 2 seconds of headshots. Your armor is not going to be nearly as good as a proto suit, though. Complex Shield Extenders offer double the shields of enhanced and Complex Armor Plates have around 50% more armor than enhanced. Heavies have more innate HP and from core skills than other suits, which get their majority from extenders/plating. So, it's harder for you to kill a Heavy without dieing of the same tier than a full proto. Still, a few seconds of head shots isn't very hard. I've killed ADV heavies in CQC with my STD SMG. It only takes about three seconds of head shots. Catch them off guard, ADS on head, hold trigger. :L Now I feel like I'm a very bad gamer, I never manage to drop a heave in 3 seconds. Never. Btw I'm playing Logi only. I need to use the AR due to the less fitting requirements. I can't use a SMG or what ever side hand. My AR skills maybe have 1,5mil SP spread all over the skilltree. The rest of my SP goes in to logi stuff like nano hives, drop up links, repair modules and so on. Duvolles? Prof 5? I'm so far away from them, feels like friendzone back in school days, you can look at it, but don't touch xD. I think I could use a Duvolles, but I never tried it, hard to fit in a Logi suit (the other modules are more important for the team) and very expensive.
Don't worry about it; I feel like one too. Some days my K/D will rise by 0.1, and some days it'll drop by the same. When I had less kills it was fluctuating by up to 0.15 during a heavy day of play. I can say that I have indeed dropped several Heavies is 3-4 seconds with the SMG, although usually they were off guard. It's much easier to do it with an AR due to the extra range. If they don't know you're there, it's pretty easy to blast them, although my accuracy isn't what it used to be when I played CoD.
I've gone Logi too and run Standard fittings. I don't expect to exceed Duvolles, and my average KD with the Laser is probably around 1.5. However, I easily get 10 assists a match. I used to think the Laser fired at 1000 RPM as this would at least make it have a chance against things like tactical ARs, but it might be closer to 700 RPM. This would mean the Viziam is doing 200 damage a second, compared to a Duvolle's base 470 damage a second. See the problem? This may actually be the case, as it takes around 3 seconds to down a player with 800 health, after heat generation. I'll post some math in another thread comparing TTK, but even after 50% bonus damage every single second with the Laser, the Duvolle Tactical, even after drop off, can kill the Laser user twice over with the same proto suit. Actually, the GLU-5 has an almost identical time to kill, only saving a twentieth of a second. I don't recommend the Duvolle over the GLU; it's saving you a single bullet at most against Proto Assault suits with 800 HP. Not even that, half the time. Use the CPU/PG to upgrade something else a tier. |
Borne Velvalor
BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY
797
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Posted - 2013.10.23 20:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
Revelations 514 wrote:m twiggz wrote:meri jin wrote:BARDAS wrote:What do you mean by "this time"? It was ALWAYS the Assault Rifle that was most OP out of all the weapons. Everyone knows it too. Aim Assist just brought more attention to it is all as people with ****** aim can now melt faces from 100 meters in under a second with a Duvolle or Gek. Now that is constructive! And absolutely not over the top. Definitely over the top. He must be playing a different game. CoD: MW2 with a UMP and silencer perhaps? Now that was an OP weapon. Maybe CoD: Black Ops with a AKu, grip and extended mag? Now that was an OP weapon. AR in dust? Definitely not OP. Did you see players in those games complaining on forums about the 'OP' weapons begging for nerfs? No. Of course people would rage all over the place about it but they dealt with it and adapted their play styles. Maybe you should also look into doing so... Never the less you will always have people complaining something is OP. The only true way to fix that is to give all weapons the same amount of damage, same clip size, same range, etc. and just give them different names and rounds/projectiles. Would that make for a fun game? In my opinion, no. Each weapon has a different tactical advantage, use your weapon the way its meant to be used and you should do just fine. Unless you're bad. Then you'll always be bad. This is BS. Go look at the MW forums..... Cries for nerfs are common and are granted just as commonly. MW is really big about weapon balance, and take more than just math into consideration as they have been doing this awhile. Also, even the ones they tweak are not nearly as broken as the AR is in Dust. They had better balance, and fixed things quickly which is why it was not as publicized. It took them less than a month to nerf the FMG's and Type-95. The Type-95 they tweaked again a month later and the ACR after that. Just spouting nonsense like, people just dealt with it tells me you have never actually been to the COD forums.
Most of CoD's balance issues lie in the killstreaks and the fact that the times to kill are so fast on all the weapons.
Fact: the difference in kill times between CoD's most OP weapons to the most UP weapons in a class are far smaller than the difference between a Duvolle with Complex Damage Mods and Proficiency 5 versus a full standard suit. The proto user takes longer to kill and kills faster in that scenario than a player that somehow has both Stopping Power and Juggernaut against opponents with neither. The variance is not usually greater than -¦20% within both weapon's optimal ranges. Some weapons perform better at range but them maps in CoD games are filled with endless CQC encounters, so it's a fair trade off.
Of course, as Dust 514 is an MMO FPS, this makes sense to a certain degree. It's not like CoD where half the best weapons are the starting weapons or easily acquired weapons. You can easily get most of the best perks and guns in a CoD game in a week or two. |
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